Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) I'm curious how you've decided 12.5 psi is an arbitrary minimum. There's nothing arbitrary about it. The rule, written long ago when both teams used the same balls and officials didn't have digital gauges, was set down to ensure the balls used in games were standardized for all games. Other than the writing on them, the NFL game ball hasn't changed in something like 70 years. But there was a time when the ball said right on it, "inflate to 13 lbs." This is the number used when writing the rule book. Only since they knew gauges could be off by a slight amount they decided it was impractical to make the rule state exactly 13.0 psi so they included a bit of wiggle room. But the point is, they did write the rule, and they expected that the officials should set the psi within that range for a very specific purpose - to ensure fairness and conformity throughout the league. The range given from 12.5 psi to 13.5 psi was never arbitrary, nor was it intended to be a preference range for quarterbacks to use to their advantage. That only came about after the rule change in 2007 allowing teams to bring their own balls. But to say the 12.5 psi minimum is arbitrary and to pretend it isn't important to the integrity of the game, well, I have to disagree. If, when the rule was written it said 13.0 lbs (like it says on the ball) and didn't give a range, would you still consider it arbitrary and would it be okay to deflate them just by a couple psi? Different QBs like a different feel on the ball. If you asked Brady and Rodgers they would give very different preferences, and neither would be between 12.5 to 13.5. Because someone decided (how?--you haven't said) that the ball should be pumped up to 13 PSI 70 years ago there should never be any change? Why not 11? Why not print 14 on the ball? Why not let teams set their own PSI and the "competitive advantage" goes away? That's the simplest solution to a small problem. Edited August 10, 2015 by Mr. WEO
Tuco Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Different QBs like a different feel on the ball. If you asked Brady and Rodgers they would give very different preferences, and neither would be between 12.5 to 13.5. Because someone decided (how?--you haven't said) that the ball should be pumped up to 13 PSI 70 years ago there should never be any change? Why not 11? Why not print 14 on the ball? Why not let teams set their own PSI and the "competitive advantage" goes away? That's the simplest solution to a small problem. Seventy years ago the manufacturer decided their ball should be inflated to 13 lbs. The league adopted that football and that figure. Now if you want to say that's arbitrary I guess you can. But the point is, even if it was arbitrary 70 years ago, that's the number that was used by all players on all teams for all those years due to the fact that the league laid down that rule 70 years ago. But the fact remains, regardless of how Tom Brady or Brett Favre say they like them, the given range of 12.5-13.5 was put in place for a reason. And that reason was never intended to be a preference range for quarterbacks. Nor was it ever okay for a player to conspire to put them outside that range after they had been tested. They test them before the game for a reason. You can't just ignore that and say it's not a big deal. As far as changing the rule to let teams set their own psi, fine, if that's what they do I'm okay with it. But ignoring a rule just because you don't like it doesn't fly, even if they change the rule later.
4merper4mer Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Different QBs like a different feel on the ball. If you asked Brady and Rodgers they would give very different preferences, and neither would be between 12.5 to 13.5. Because someone decided (how?--you haven't said) that the ball should be pumped up to 13 PSI 70 years ago there should never be any change? Why not 11? Why not print 14 on the ball? Why not let teams set their own PSI and the "competitive advantage" goes away? That's the simplest solution to a small problem. I know we've disagreed at times but you have a point that the standards seem arbitrary. While we're at it why should the Pats* be limited to 6 points for a touchdown simply because some egghead set that standard decades ago? Why not let them decide how many points each touchdown is worth?
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Holy moly what this topic/case has turned into. It's just like everything else in our society. No wonder children are so screwed up. It's like, everybody is Monty Hall and this is "Let's Make a Deal." He broke the rules according to authority. There is no dealing. Listen to authority and move. I am sorry (well not really, we all know it is true) he is tainted as a cheater. Look @ that crap Pete Rose is trying to pull. Hey Tom! You should get to know Pete. I made the crack about Landis and baseball. Holy Good Moly, just imagine what the game would be like now. Pete Rose would have never got caught because he would have been in tight with the fixers. Cheat away NFL... If anybody will kill The League, @ least it is the Cheatriots that can't answer to authority because their feelings and legacy are tainted and hurt!
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Or deflate the ball entirely and throw it like a frisbee because they have a new QB who can really zing it in there. The 13 lbs is what the manufacturer decided was the right inflation, not too soft and not too hard. It makes sense.
NoSaint Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Or deflate the ball entirely and throw it like a frisbee because they have a new QB who can really zing it in there. The 13 lbs is what the manufacturer decided was the right inflation, not too soft and not too hard. It makes sense. its a detour, but id be curious a poll on solutions: make it incredibly strict and tightly monitored, VS wide open teams can do what they want... maybe a separate thread though Edited August 10, 2015 by NoSaint
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Seventy years ago the manufacturer decided their ball should be inflated to 13 lbs. The league adopted that football and that figure. Now if you want to say that's arbitrary I guess you can. But the point is, even if it was arbitrary 70 years ago, that's the number that was used by all players on all teams for all those years due to the fact that the league laid down that rule 70 years ago. But the fact remains, regardless of how Tom Brady or Brett Favre say they like them, the given range of 12.5-13.5 was put in place for a reason. And that reason was never intended to be a preference range for quarterbacks. Nor was it ever okay for a player to conspire to put them outside that range after they had been tested. They test them before the game for a reason. You can't just ignore that and say it's not a big deal. As far as changing the rule to let teams set their own psi, fine, if that's what they do I'm okay with it. But ignoring a rule just because you don't like it doesn't fly, even if they change the rule later. So we agree it was arbitrary 70 years ago (when the balls were certainly much different) yet you also say it was put in place for a reason--what is that reason and what does it have to do with the way modern QBs like the football? Brady cheated, we get that. Or deflate the ball entirely and throw it like a frisbee because they have a new QB who can really zing it in there. The 13 lbs is what the manufacturer decided was the right inflation, not too soft and not too hard. It makes sense. I know what you're saying, but why let the manufacturer decide rather than your QB? I could see if ALL QBs would love to deflate the balls like Brady, but it's clear that many don't favor that and some want the opposite--"beach balls". its a detour, but id be curious a poll on solutions: make it incredibly strict and tightly monitored, VS wide open teams can do what they want... maybe a separate thread though WHy would anyone not want their QB to be able to pick the PSI (or "feel") that he thinks will allow him to play even better?
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 its a detour, but id be curious a poll on solutions: make it incredibly strict and tightly monitored, VS wide open teams can do what they want... maybe a separate thread though Wide open. I wanna see the ball flat. LoL... Anyway, hasn't this debate come up decades ago when they decided to closely monitor the kicking balls. Remember when the kickers were mutilating the damn things? How would baseball be if they let the pitchers still spit-ball? Let them have a sand paper palm in their glove. Don't let the umps "mud up" dozens of game balls... Use only a few and make the fans throw them back. That's what basically happens if we let footballs go wide open. If Tom Brady gets his way. The physics of the game change. Heck, let NASCAR drivers do what they want to their cars. Cheat away!
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Wide open. I wanna see the ball flat. LoL... Anyway, hasn't this debate come up decades ago when they decided to closely monitor the kicking balls. Remember when the kickers were mutilating the damn things? How would baseball be if they let the pitchers still spit-ball? Let them have a sand paper palm in their glove. Don't let the umps "mud up" dozens of game balls... Use only a few and make the fans throw them back. That's what basically happens if we let footballs go wide open. If Tom Brady gets his way. The physics of the game change. Heck, let NASCAR drivers do what they want to their cars. Cheat away! The physics of the game will not change. And the point is no one will have to "cheat" if everyone is allowed to fill their balls to whatever. And we are only talking about maybe a 3 PSI range. The ball is still going to fly through the air....
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 its a detour, but id be curious a poll on solutions: make it incredibly strict and tightly monitored, VS wide open teams can do what they want... maybe a separate thread though How about you just can't cheat? And if you get caught you get in trouble, you admit it and you take your little punishment. Another thing that Wells and the league disciplined Brady on was not only that game, but previous games. The NFL determined it was multiple games they cheated, not one. The texts spoke about a few different games. The Deflator was his nickname for more than a year. There was a text from McNally telling Jastremki to deflate in the middle of a game in the middle of the season. It was the entirety of the offense they determined that warranted the two games for deflating. Basketball players don't get to let a little air out of the ball because they like it to bounce a little higher or lower when they dribble. Golfers can't mess with the balls. Hockey players can't mess with the pucks and every shift they get caught with an illegal stick they get a two minute penalty. There is a long history of baseball players messing with the baseballs. I'm not really sure how we can equate that either way. But I guarantee if a player was found to steal the box of baseballs before the game from under the umpire's nose and alter them all, that player would be suspended for sure.
Matt in KC Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Kelly, quick question: I have seen you repeatedly say the punishment was 2 games for cheating, 2 for obstruction. I have only seen that the punishment was for both, but not how much for each part. Are you sure somone specifically said two each, and if so, do you remember who?
Tuco Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 The physics of the game will not change. And the point is no one will have to "cheat" if everyone is allowed to fill their balls to whatever. And we are only talking about maybe a 3 PSI range. The ball is still going to fly through the air.... Kickers used to be allowed to break in their own balls too. It got so out of hand the league decided to make all kickers use the same balls. Why is that if it doesn't change anything? QBs should all use the same balls too, for the same reason. The 12.5-13.5 range was never intended to be a preference range. It was supposed to ensure that the balls were very close to 13 psi. And for 70 years it never became an issue until Brady and company decided to use the rules to their advantage. When everybody played with the same ball we never had an issue with balls being stolen and deflated. The most logical remedy would be to go back to that system.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 The physics of the game will not change. And the point is no one will have to "cheat" if everyone is allowed to fill their balls to whatever. And we are only talking about maybe a 3 PSI range. The ball is still going to fly through the air.... You noticed that the NFL, while changing the rules slightly a couple weeks ago, allowed the QB's and teams less leeway, and not more concerning the PSI. Because the game is supposed to be played by the rules set forth by the people in charge of the rules. That is not to say the NFL is smart, or that they don't do dumb things at times. But no other QBs complain about the balls, and even the guys you and others use as examples of guys who like them a different way have never been caught cheating or altering them.
DC Tom Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Why not let teams set their own PSI and the "competitive advantage" goes away? That's the simplest solution to a small problem. Why have rules at all?
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 Kelly, quick question: I have seen you repeatedly say the punishment was 2 games for cheating, 2 for obstruction. I have only seen that the punishment was for both, but not how much for each part. Are you sure somone specifically said two each, and if so, do you remember who? No, it wasn't an official declaration. But from everything that has been said, and especially the early wording of Vincent and Goodell, they had treated both of those things pretty equally so it is very easy to surmise that it was broken down that way. What they found was that he cheated and he obstructed and lied and decided for that offense in total it should be four games. What would be hard to imagine from what they have actually said and done at every turn is to believe it was one for cheating and three for obstructing, or the other way around. So I usually just round it off that way, and most often so people don't say stuff like four games for lying is too much or four games for letting some air out is outrageous. They gave him four games for letting air out A LOT, like over the course of the season and maybe more, in several games, plus lying A LOT and obstructing A LOT.
Matt in KC Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 No, it wasn't an official declaration. But from everything that has been said, and especially the early wording of Vincent and Goodell, they had treated both of those things pretty equally so it is very easy to surmise that it was broken down that way. What they found was that he cheated and he obstructed and lied and decided for that offense in total it should be four games. What would be hard to imagine from what they have actually said and done at every turn is to believe it was one for cheating and three for obstructing, or the other way around. So I usually just round it off that way, and most often so people don't say stuff like four games for lying is too much or four games for letting some air out is outrageous. They gave him four games for letting air out A LOT, like over the course of the season and maybe more, in several games, plus lying A LOT and obstructing A LOT. I remember them saying both, and specifically Vincent saying past behavior was considered. I thought maybe I had missed something. It is smart of them to not detail the punishment as there is a kind of gestalt here that comes with weighing a lot of things, some less certain than others.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 The physics of the game will not change. And the point is no one will have to "cheat" if everyone is allowed to fill their balls to whatever. And we are only talking about maybe a 3 PSI range. The ball is still going to fly through the air.... It isn't just about flying through the air. Easy to grip, less Tuck-Rule hiding behind (IE: Fumbles), maybe easier for a receiver to catch etc... Why don't they just let Tommy Cheater have a Nerf ball... It still flies through the air. Monty Hall here: "Let's Make a Deal!" Everything is open to debate. Officer, I didn't really run that red light. It was orange right between when the yellow went to red. "Can I go now, I am late for work and have a legacy to protect!"
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Huge stretch I know. Back when I played pee wee ball (I know ha ha) there were rules to the length and circumference of the balls by age groups. So I assume the 13 lbs not only had to do with the air pressure being more or less but filled out the ball to the correct dimensions it was made for. Having said that I do not know if this is written anywhere in the NFL regarding circumference, but I guarantee whoever makes the ball has the size in mind. So it wouldn't surprise me if that existed somewhere. I would bet that is the reason for the 13 lbs or printed weight. Edited August 10, 2015 by SRQ_BillsFan
TheFunPolice Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 how about just allow teams to do whatever they want to the footballs? If you want soft beach balls have at it. The other team gets to do what it wants on offense to its footballs, so then there is no advantage since both teams get to do it. Who really cares? I think after week 2 Brady is going to want the injunction to end and will willingly just serve the suspension.
Kelly the Dog Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 how about just allow teams to do whatever they want to the footballs? If you want soft beach balls have at it. The other team gets to do what it wants on offense to its footballs, so then there is no advantage since both teams get to do it. Who really cares? I think after week 2 Brady is going to want the injunction to end and will willingly just serve the suspension. In all likelihood he will have to admit guilt and he flat refuses as of now. I honestly believe that it will stay at four games simply because his ego prevents him from admitting any guilt in this and so he thinks his legacy remains intact because they cannot prove he cheated. He's already proven he would rather have four games than admit any guilt. I doubt that changes.
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