dave mcbride Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) Lest anyone be confused, the Saints did in fact run a bounty scheme; that is not up for debate. Gregg Williams even admitted to it. The operation he oversaw was hair-raising, and far worse than what the Pats did. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans_Saints_bounty_scandal Edited August 9, 2015 by dave mcbride
DC Tom Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 Well, a big part of the bounty gate trouble was also the investigation. But I don't think you are 100% up to speed on that one, as much as a general knowledge of it No, the "problem" with the bounty system was that it was a compensation program, that under the CBA couldn't be punished with suspensions the way Goodell did. Seriously. Read the court decision. That was the NFLPA's argument. It takes a lot of balls to call a "pay for injury" pool a "compensation" system, and even more balls to successfully argue it in court.
dave mcbride Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 No, the "problem" with the bounty system was that it was a compensation program, that under the CBA couldn't be punished with suspensions the way Goodell did. Seriously. Read the court decision. That was the NFLPA's argument. It takes a lot of balls to call a "pay for injury" pool a "compensation" system, and even more balls to successfully argue it in court. I find it outlandish that they won that. Obviously, Vilma was involved.
NoSaint Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 No, the "problem" with the bounty system was that it was a compensation program, that under the CBA couldn't be punished with suspensions the way Goodell did. Seriously. Read the court decision. That was the NFLPA's argument. It takes a lot of balls to call a "pay for injury" pool a "compensation" system, and even more balls to successfully argue it in court. You mean tagliabues decision? Yea I'm pretty well versed. There were ridiculous issues the entire way, but I'm not turning this into a straight up debate on that case, only referencing as another time the nfl ran off the rails with its processes.
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) You mean tagliabues decision? Yea I'm pretty well versed. There were ridiculous issues the entire way, but I'm not turning this into a straight up debate on that case, only referencing as another time the nfl ran off the rails with its processes.Oh, I totally agree that there were problems with the entirety of it. But what the investigation found vs what the NFL did withit were two different things. What I hate is the process where players can simply contradict themselves in the appeal without penalty. It happened then and I believe it happened here as well. In both cases, the NFL made some dumb calls in what they did with the reports. But that and some fancy dancing should not get these players off. I believe Brady cheated and because the balls were stolen makes this a 1st of a kind penalty. But that's my opinion. I'd be fine with a fine and a true admission of guilt. But I think he'd take the games before admitting guilt. Which is fine also. Edited August 9, 2015 by SRQ_BillsFan
YoloinOhio Posted August 9, 2015 Author Posted August 9, 2015 So when the heck do we find out if he's playing week 2, ya'll.
NoSaint Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 So when the heck do we find out if he's playing week 2, ya'll. Could be anywhere from here til Labor Day
YoloinOhio Posted August 9, 2015 Author Posted August 9, 2015 Could be anywhere from here til Labor Daythat has to suck for the Pats and all their opponents week 1-4
NoSaint Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 that has to suck for the Pats and all their opponents week 1-4 Meh, we prep for Brady and he's not there what have we really lost?
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 If it's as bad as it sounds maybe we let them play Brady if we can use their backup.
GG Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 So when the heck do we find out if he's playing week 2, ya'll. The first date for court recommended settlement talks are this Wednesday, followed by the following Wednesday if nothing is resolved. Then the judge will rule by the 4th, if there's no settlement between nfl and Brady by that time.
Mr. WEO Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) I'll ask you straight up and without any antagonism, without trying to pick a fight: why aren't you outraged? I'm genuinely curious. I just can't get past people saying this isn't a big deal. And I'm not speaking from Patriot-hate, either. This whole episode is such a huge act of disrespect to the game to me. kj Outraged? I don't think you are really outraged at all--I mean, come on. It's a game. Guys are skimming the edges all the time. I don't think a few Psi below some arbitrarily set minimum affected the outcome of any game ever. The "stealing " of their own equipment is a point you want to open your veins over, but I already pointed out they could have (and assumedly had) done it on the sideline before that or any game and you would be left with no point to rage over. I can't disagree with your outrage, because I don't believe it, sorry. Too many real outrages to point out than this bit of NFL sponsored and orchestrated drama.. Edited August 10, 2015 by Mr. WEO
Augie Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 So when the heck do we find out if he's playing week 2, ya'll. If he starts week two, I'm hoping he doesn't FINISH week two. That's my best case scenario. With our D....? Could happen.
Leroi Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 I am under the impression that This hearing will be expedited and we will know before the season starts. Imo
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 I just don't see doing it on the sidelines as bad as stealing the balls. Stealing always makes it worse. It would be much harder to do it on the sidelines or there would have been no reason to steal them. The net effect is the same, but they could also be caught on camera, etc.
ExiledInIllinois Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 I find this fixation on the disciplinary process in a case where pretty much everyone but diehard Pats* fans agree that cheating went on a bit odd I must admit. Why not pick a case where there is a real miscarriage of justice, for ex.? In addition, what is your solution? Getting professional arbitrators or judges involved for every dispute? Shouldn't the League commissioner be the one with the power to discipline players? To suggest otherwise strikes me, frankly, as ridiculous. I agree. Just imagine how today they would have reacted to say a guy like Judge Landis and how he "cleaned up baseball" almost a 100 years ago. There simply is a problem w/authority and it starts w/The Cheaters crying every time they get caught and punished. Just be lucky Landis isn't sitting behind the bench or they would be banned for life for rigging games.
TheFunPolice Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) it seems like the tide is turning on this story... Before it was 90/10 "Brady is a cheater, the Patriots* are cheaters" vs the lone Patriot* fan defending him. Now it's looking much more like 75/25 "Goodell is an idiot, Wells is corrupt, there's no evidence" vs "Brady is a cheater" Brady is going to win this thing, as he always does, and all the haters (myself included) are just going to have to live with it. I'm convinced that Brady loses for a while on purpose just to get our hopes up that the "dynasty" is over just so he can crush our dreams and have it hurt even more. lol I'm kidding. Sort of. Edited August 10, 2015 by TheFunPolice
Rocky Landing Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 it seems like the tide is turning on this story... Before it was 90/10 "Brady is a cheater, the Patriots* are cheaters" vs the lone Patriot* fan defending him. Now it's looking much more like 75/25 "Goodell is an idiot, Wells is corrupt, there's no evidence" vs "Brady is a cheater" Brady is going to win this thing, as he always does, and all the haters (myself included) are just going to have to live with it. I'm convinced that Brady loses for a while on purpose just to get our hopes up that the "dynasty" is over just so he can crush our dreams and have it hurt even more. lol I'm kidding. Sort of. These concepts are not mutually exclusive.
Tuco Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) Outraged? I don't think you are really outraged at all--I mean, come on. It's a game. Guys are skimming the edges all the time. I don't think a few Psi below some arbitrarily set minimum affected the outcome of any game ever. The "stealing " of their own equipment is a point you want to open your veins over, but I already pointed out they could have (and assumedly had) done it on the sideline before that or any game and you would be left with no point to rage over. I can't disagree with your outrage, because I don't believe it, sorry. Too many real outrages to point out than this bit of NFL sponsored and orchestrated drama.. I'm curious how you've decided 12.5 psi is an arbitrary minimum. There's nothing arbitrary about it. The rule, written long ago when both teams used the same balls and officials didn't have digital gauges, was set down to ensure the balls used in games were standardized for all games. Other than the writing on them, the NFL game ball hasn't changed in something like 70 years. But there was a time when the ball said right on it, "inflate to 13 lbs." This is the number used when writing the rule book. Only since they knew gauges could be off by a slight amount they decided it was impractical to make the rule state exactly 13.0 psi so they included a bit of wiggle room. But the point is, they did write the rule, and they expected that the officials should set the psi within that range for a very specific purpose - to ensure fairness and conformity throughout the league. The range given from 12.5 psi to 13.5 psi was never arbitrary, nor was it intended to be a preference range for quarterbacks to use to their advantage. That only came about after the rule change in 2007 allowing teams to bring their own balls. But to say the 12.5 psi minimum is arbitrary and to pretend it isn't important to the integrity of the game, well, I have to disagree. If, when the rule was written it said 13.0 lbs (like it says on the ball) and didn't give a range, would you still consider it arbitrary and would it be okay to deflate them just by a couple psi? Edited August 10, 2015 by Tuco
PlayoffsPlease Posted August 10, 2015 Posted August 10, 2015 These concepts are not mutually exclusive. Previous teams found to have changed the air pressure in balls were fined 25k and that was the end of it. It seems likely to me that the Patriots concluded it was worth the risk. Just like offensive linemen decide its worth the risk to hold. If the officials decided in one circumstance to have a 10 yard penalty, but in another circumstance decided to award the victimized team a touchdown and eject the offending team's QB from the game that team would probably be upset. Now this theory isn't consistent with the Patriots refusing to admit the violation. On the other hand, players frequently deny the penalties they are called for.
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