Kirby Jackson Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 I am more convinced that the science disproves any transgressions happened than I am that any of the circumstantial evidence points to Brady instructing the guys to lower the PSI's below legal limit. With the current info available, If I were a juror I would not convict. That is fair enough. The argument that there isn't enough evidence to convict is much stronger than Brady knew nothing.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 Come on - I think he did it and I'm nowhere near suspicious of team employees getting kicked presents. Maybe Kirby can chime in on thatIt is a HUGE no, no as an employee to ask for an autograph. It is the kind of thing that will get you fired. As a part time, game day staff member these rules may not be as hard and fast but still highly frowned upon. The gesture was almost certainly a thank you from Brady for something. Just as an aside if there are 103 new signed Tom Brady jerseys in circulation this year 100 of them are solicited and controlled by the team. Each department will have an allotment to use for new sponsors, charitable donations, etc... The players have a day after practice where they do all of their signing for the year. Certain guys need to have someone flown in to authenticate. If we had CP3 sign we had to have his upper deck rep flown in to authenticate. Brady almost certainly has a deal like this but I am not sure. This definitely sounds like something Brady pulled from his locker, signed and handed out. It is not a common practice.
What a Tuel Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 I would say it's more like you going out to play poker with your buddies and come home smelling of booze and smoke. The missus then assumes you were at the strip club and accuses you so because you smell of booze and smokes. Or some similar storyline More like your friend who wouldn't ever go to a strip club, texting about strip clubs, and you in the same conversation, and her seeing it on a friends phone. Then her seeing your friend driving your car on camera, going to the strip club. You subsequently destroy your phone before she can look at your phone to validate your friends didn't text you about the strip club. Then she also finds out that you took out $500 singles and spread them amongst your friends. Then you tell her, I will never hang out with those guys again, don't worry. When she asks why, you say no reason, they are perfectly good guys. All of that with a eating grin on your face, and a overall attitude that this is all a big joke. Overbearing wife? Replace strip club with hooker party.
MattM Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 It is a HUGE no, no as an employee to ask for an autograph. It is the kind of thing that will get you fired. As a part time, game day staff member these rules may not be as hard and fast but still highly frowned upon. The gesture was almost certainly a thank you from Brady for something. Just as an aside if there are 103 new signed Tom Brady jerseys in circulation this year 100 of them are solicited and controlled by the team. Each department will have an allotment to use for new sponsors, charitable donations, etc... The players have a day after practice where they do all of their signing for the year. Certain guys need to have someone flown in to authenticate. If we had CP3 sign we had to have his upper deck rep flown in to authenticate. Brady almost certainly has a deal like this but I am not sure. This definitely sounds like something Brady pulled from his locker, signed and handed out. It is not a common practice. Exactly. And if it was a common practice (or if done for ANYONE else) the Pats* would certainly have trotted them out by now as evidence this was all normal. The fact that they haven't speaks volumes.
Nanker Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 It is a HUGE no, no as an employee to ask for an autograph. It is the kind of thing that will get you fired. As a part time, game day staff member these rules may not be as hard and fast but still highly frowned upon. The gesture was almost certainly a thank you from Brady for something. This definitely sounds like something Brady pulled from his locker, signed and handed out. It is not a common practice. It's obvious, isn't it. He was thanking him for not knowing him nor ever meeting him. It happens all the time.
l< j Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 I am more convinced that the science disproves any transgressions happened than I am that any of the circumstantial evidence points to Brady instructing the guys to lower the PSI's below legal limit. With the current info available, If I were a juror I would not convict. Except for the big one: balls were stolen. You haven't acknowledged that yet and science can't deny it. Once you do accept that as the starting point, you'll see the science, the air pressure, none of that matters. It doesn't matter what the balls were like. It matters that the Patriots employees acted to change them, that Brady knew that it happened and didn't acknowledge it, and that it wouldn't have occurred if he didn't want it to. And that it was an unprecedented act of cheating. Never has anything like this happened before. The 4 games was too light, and the air pressure is a sideshow that allows some to under-represent an example of cheating that is incredibly disrespectful of the game. kj
JohnC Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 (edited) That is fair enough. The argument that there isn't enough evidence to convict is much stronger than Brady knew nothing. I don't believe that Brady told anyone to adjust the balls below the legal standard. There is no proof of it. Brady is willing to take this issue to court and stand by that claim. The noncompliance issue is now the primary basis for the suspension since there isn't credible evidence about the conditions of the balls because the methodology was problematic. The below link is a response by Dowd who was a former prosecutor and involved in a number of various investagations in pro sports and in legal arenas. The central theme in his article is his expression of disdain for the process in general and the manner in which the investigation was conducted and the appeal decision was determined. He is basically concluding that the charge and process were a sham. I and many people believe that this needless saga was never about Brady as much as it was about a pent up reservoir of resentment of other franchises toward the very successful New England franchise. The deflategate issue was a handy issue used to punish the Patriots who some owners believe have a history of conducting themselves on the edge. (That is a legitimate issue.) The ingratiating commissioner acted out of proportion to the perceived trivial transgression and took an issue that could have been more easily and more appropriately handled. I've said it many times and I will say it again: Brady and the PSI issue is not the important issue here. It is the unethical manner in which the commissioner has conducted himself in administering his disciplinary responsibilities. Just because someone has mostly unchallenged authority it doesn't give him the right to run amok. Having such unbridled authority should make him more respectful and cautious in wieldly that power. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/index.html http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/07/nfl-nflpa-legal-briefs-tom-brady-suspension-deflategate-patriots-roger-goodell Edited August 8, 2015 by JohnC
4merper4mer Posted August 8, 2015 Posted August 8, 2015 I don't believe that Brady told anyone to adjust the balls below the legal standard. There is no proof of it. Brady is willing to take this issue to court and stand by that claim. The noncompliance issue is now the primary basis for the suspension since there isn't credible evidence about the conditions of the balls because the methodology was problematic. The below link is a response by Dowd who was a former prosecutor and involved in a number of various investagations in pro sports and in legal arenas. The central theme in his article is his expression of disdain for the process in general and the manner in which the investigation was conducted and the appeal decision was determined. He is basically concluding that the charge and process were a sham. I and many people believe that this needless saga was never about Brady as much as it was about a pent up reservoir of resentment of other franchises toward the very successful New England franchise. The deflategate issue was a handy issue used to punish the Patriots who some owners believe have a history of conducting themselves on the edge. (That is a legitimate issue.) The ingratiating commissioner acted out of proportion to the perceived trivial transgression and took an issue that could have been more easily and more appropriately handled. I've said it many times and I will say it again: Brady and the PSI issue is not the important issue here. It is the unethical manner in which the commissioner has conducted himself in administering his disciplinary responsibilities. Just because someone has mostly unchallenged authority it doesn't give him the right to run amok. Having such unbridled authority should make him more respectful and cautious in wieldly that power. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/index.html Quick! Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and run. The turnip truck is getting away.
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 Gee Tom had much better answers 6 months latter during his appeal trial. He must be telling the truth. What happened to the "I called to talk about his wedding" excuse. Why was that no longer the reason for the extra calls and meeting in the office. Oh I forgot, along with the "I don't remembers". How people just fall all over his new testimony makes me sick. I wish the NFL would post his original interviews so we could see how the story changed. Because it makes much more sense that he remembers things more clearly 6 months after it happened vs right away.
NoSaint Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 Gee Tom had much better answers 6 months latter during his appeal trial. He must be telling the truth. What happened to the "I called to talk about his wedding" excuse. Why was that no longer the reason for the extra calls and meeting in the office. Oh I forgot, along with the "I don't remembers". How people just fall all over his new testimony makes me sick. I wish the NFL would post his original interviews so we could see how the story changed. Because it makes much more sense that he remembers things more clearly 6 months after it happened vs right away. Are you seeing some groundswell of people that think his answers were fantastic? I feel like I have not.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 I don't believe that Brady told anyone to adjust the balls below the legal standard. There is no proof of it. Brady is willing to take this issue to court and stand by that claim. The noncompliance issue is now the primary basis for the suspension since there isn't credible evidence about the conditions of the balls because the methodology was problematic. The below link is a response by Dowd who was a former prosecutor and involved in a number of various investagations in pro sports and in legal arenas. The central theme in his article is his expression of disdain for the process in general and the manner in which the investigation was conducted and the appeal decision was determined. He is basically concluding that the charge and process were a sham. I and many people believe that this needless saga was never about Brady as much as it was about a pent up reservoir of resentment of other franchises toward the very successful New England franchise. The deflategate issue was a handy issue used to punish the Patriots who some owners believe have a history of conducting themselves on the edge. (That is a legitimate issue.) The ingratiating commissioner acted out of proportion to the perceived trivial transgression and took an issue that could have been more easily and more appropriately handled. I've said it many times and I will say it again: Brady and the PSI issue is not the important issue here. It is the unethical manner in which the commissioner has conducted himself in administering his disciplinary responsibilities. Just because someone has mostly unchallenged authority it doesn't give him the right to run amok. Having such unbridled authority should make him more respectful and cautious in wieldly that power. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/index.html http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/07/nfl-nflpa-legal-briefs-tom-brady-suspension-deflategate-patriots-roger-goodell Just to be clear I don't think Brady instructed them to go below the legal limit. I believe that he asked them to take some air out.
Peter Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 Just to be clear I don't think Brady instructed them to go below the legal limit. I believe that he asked them to take some air out. I don't believe that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb would have done anything without Tom Brady's blessing. The Deflator, in my opinion, would not take it upon himself to deflate footballs (especially footballs used in a playoff game) unless he knew that he was doing what Brady wanted him to do. Just my two cents.
Kirby Jackson Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 I don't believe that Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb would have done anything without Tom Brady's blessing. The Deflator, in my opinion, would not take it upon himself to deflate footballs (especially footballs used in a playoff game) unless he knew that he was doing what Brady wanted him to do. Just my two cents. Exactly
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 Just to be clear I don't think Brady instructed them to go below the legal limit. I believe that he asked them to take some air out. That's impossible Kirby. He told them before the game and to tell the refs they wanted it at the lowest possible point. So if he told them to let some air out he knew that was illegal.
4merper4mer Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 That's impossible Kirby. He told them before the game and to tell the refs they wanted it at the lowest possible point. So if he told them to let some air out he knew that was illegal. There is no scientific proof of that because.....well........atmospheric conditions.
SRQ_BillsFan Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) It doesn't matter if their intent was just to make sure the balls were at 12.5 to me. They stole the balls from the referee to do it? Do you not see something wrong with that???? Ther plan was not simply to steal the balls to get 5 minutes of extra practice? So even if they were covering that up, why? Because they know they plotted and did something wrong. Edited August 9, 2015 by SRQ_BillsFan
dave mcbride Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) That's impossible Kirby. He told them before the game and to tell the refs they wanted it at the lowest possible point. So if he told them to let some air out he knew that was illegal. It's entirely in the realm of possible. Don't be so obviously sure of your own opinions; it makes your overall view seem more prosecutorial and less fair-minded. It's over the top, in other words, and it makes me skeptical. Edited August 9, 2015 by dave mcbride
Kelly the Dog Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 It's entirely in the realm of possible. Don't be so obviously sure of your own opinions; it makes your overall view seem more prosecutorial and less fair-minded. It's over the top, in other words, and it makes me skeptical.Think about what you just said Dave. Do you really believe that McNally knew Brady wanted the balls at the lowest legal level, 12.5, asked the refs to put the balls at 12.5 because that is what Tom wanted (which is irrefutable),and then, ON HIS OWN, in a CHAMPIONSHIP GAME, something he never did before, STOLE THE BALLS FROM THE REFS, TOOK THEM TO A BATHROOM AND LET MORE AIR OUT IF THEM THAT TOM DIDNT ASK HIM TO. Because that is exactly what you are saying if Brady didn't tell them he wanted more air out of the balls.
dave mcbride Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 Think about what you just said Dave. Do you really believe that McNally knew Brady wanted the balls at the lowest legal level, 12.5, asked the refs to put the balls at 12.5 because that is what Tom wanted (which is irrefutable),and then, ON HIS OWN, in a CHAMPIONSHIP GAME, something he never did before, STOLE THE BALLS FROM THE REFS, TOOK THEM TO A BATHROOM AND LET MORE AIR OUT IF THEM THAT TOM DIDNT ASK HIM TO. Because that is exactly what you are saying if Brady didn't tell them he wanted more air out of the balls. I'm referring specifically to the term "impossible." As I've said elsewhere, he may have had a history of balls coming in higher than he liked and he wanted to get them to a lower albeit still legal (in his mind) level. I'm not saying that's probable; I'm saying that it's not "impossible."
JohnC Posted August 9, 2015 Posted August 9, 2015 I'm referring specifically to the term "impossible." As I've said elsewhere, he may have had a history of balls coming in higher than he liked and he wanted to get them to a lower albeit still legal (in his mind) level. I'm not saying that's probable; I'm saying that it's not "impossible." What the league and the accusers are doing are demanding that Brady prove a negative, i.e. that he didn't do what he was accused of doing. They have no convincing proof that he ordered anyone to lower the balls below the permissible PSI level. In essence their position is that although we can't reasonably prove that you did something wrong you can't conclusively prove that you didn't do it. What the claimants don't understand is that an assumption, intensely held, is not a fact. Repeating it over and over doesn't turn the assumption into a reality. There is nothing wrong or unusual that after an investigation (even well resourced and high profile investigations) the facts of the case can't be determined to the point that a quality determination can be made. But in this case that was never going to happen because the outcome was predetermined before it was even started. http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/08/07/nfl-nflpa-legal-briefs-tom-brady-suspension-deflategate-patriots-roger-goodell
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