BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Pneumonic, on 31 Jul 2015 - 12:51 PM, said: This may be true .... I don't know the legal ramifications. However, I do know science and #'s enough to know any conclusion based upon the methodology in place here is ridiculously suspect. Other than theory, why is it suspect in your mind? Seriously. When both the pro and con sides of the argument totally agree on what the starting point measurement was. Both tested them in close proximity to each other, and both got identical results. And neither side contests its validity or accuracy. There is no argument whatsoever about it. well apparently some one still does think it is worth argument.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Actually, it was that story on Sally Jenkins posted by MattM that put me over the top. I had to ask myself if this is who I wanted to be allying myself with! :D I actually went back and read the AEI report this morning, at least the first several pages of it. And it's all based on that same theory that doesn't exist anymore. Frankly, I don't know why Wells left it out, it was a big mistake by Wells and welcomed stuff like that. When I read the Wells report I noticed it was a little strange but I just assumed there was a good reason for what they did. Now it's clear what they did when it wasn't at all before. The NFLPA has questioned the testing methodology. As did the league just recently .... by actually implementing some element of testing control. The changes they made, which I outlined a few pages ago, would have had no bearing on the Brady case.
Pneumonic Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 The changes they made, which I outlined a few pages ago, would have had no bearing on the Brady case. Fair enough. My point still stands that the NFLPA disagrees with the science and is highlighted in their petition to vacate.
starrymessenger Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 It really can be condensed down to this simple construct. This is entirely on Tom Brady. OC made the comparison to Lance Armstrong earlier and I think it's apt in terms of Brady suffering from the same kind of hubris that literally prevents him from admitting the truth. America forgives as long as we aren't lied to. Brady's image is forever tarnished because he simply couldn't man up. And it's a shame because I feel he is one of the best on field performers ever at his position. Much of that will be forgotten as part of his legacy now. GO BILLS!!! Can't say that my reaction is to wish he was a better person. It just is what it is. The essence of tragedy (where more is usually at stake than football) is the fatal character flaw that brings down the superhero. Tom Brady is a great football player. He is also a person of weak character. They may not be famous but I'm sure we have all known people in our ordinary lives who are better and bigger than him. Tom Brady: Prince of secondary men.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) then why continue to escalate? You aren't getting my point. Why destroy evidence over something that gets you a $25K fine? You do it when those texts involve other transgressions that have not yet been suspected. Edited July 31, 2015 by PromoTheRobot
NoSaint Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 You aren't getting my point. Why destroy evidence over something that gets you a $25K fine? You do it when those texts involve other transgressions that have not yet been suspected. Why not just eat the penalty if your so worried about them catching you? At this point he could simply say "I disagree with the conclusions but what can I do" instead of putting brighter and brighter lights on him. His actions strike me as a guy that thinks he can wiggle out of this, not as hoping he doesn't draw attention to other offenses was my point
Augie Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 You aren't getting my point. Why destroy evidence over something that gets you a $25K fine? You do it when those texts involve other transgressions that have not yet been suspected. And Tommy doesn't want to be guilty, but he also doesn't want to say "It wasn't me, Bill made me do it! He HATES fumbles!" (Maybe)
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Fair enough. My point still stands that the NFLPA disagrees with the science and is highlighted in their petition to vacate. That's what is so funny. They are standing by the fact that all these people said the science is wrong. It was ALL based on the gauges, and the distinct (well 25% chance) that Wells got it wrong. But that is all gone now. If the worst case scenario for the Patriots in The Ideal Gas Law figures is what actually happened, it still would show the Patriots substantially cheated. Up until now that was all in question because of what gauge Anderson used. But in Goodell's report, it proves what gauge Anderson used, and why Wells chose to use those numbers.
PromoTheRobot Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Why not just eat the penalty if your so worried about them catching you? At this point he could simply say "I disagree with the conclusions but what can I do" instead of putting brighter and brighter lights on him. His actions strike me as a guy that thinks he can wiggle out of this, not as hoping he doesn't draw attention to other offenses was my point Ay-yi-yi, I'm going to explain it again....slowly. 1) NFL asks for TB's phone to investigate Deflategate. 2) TB freaks because along with Deflategate texts, there are texts about (hypothetical) stealing signals, hacking playbooks, PED's etc. etc.. 3) TB destroys phone. not over football inflation, but over possible issues that would be 100 times worse. Again, I'm spitballing, but you have to wonder why TB is taking such extreme measures over a relatively minor transgression. It could be just his ego, but it could be a lot more we have no idea about.
Pneumonic Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 That's what is so funny. They are standing by the fact that all these people said the science is wrong. It was ALL based on the gauges, and the distinct (well 25% chance) that Wells got it wrong. But that is all gone now. If the worst case scenario for the Patriots in The Ideal Gas Law figures is what actually happened, it still would show the Patriots substantially cheated. Up until now that was all in question because of what gauge Anderson used. But in Goodell's report, it proves what gauge Anderson used, and why Wells chose to use those numbers. Reading their petition, it seems to me that they hit on all of the salient points. 125. It is undisputed that, prior to the AFC Championship Game, the League had no collection and testing procedures for assessing changes in football pressure. As a consequence, the officials did not know to-and therefore did not-record critical information such as the temperafure of the locker room where the footballs were tested, the specific gauge used to conduct the testing (here, multiple gauges were used with diflerent calibrations), whether each of the balls was wet or dry (and how wet or dry), or the sequence or timing of the measurements (which was critical, as the balls heated up inside the room but were each measured at different times).
JohnC Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Do yourself a favor and Google "Sally Jenkins" and "Lance Armstrong". Sally was one of Lance's staunchest defenders until the bitter end. Here's one of many, many articles castigating her for her defense of that cheater. Do you see a pattern here (in addition to the pattern of Patriot* cheating, spinning, lying, covering up)? http://dcist.com/2012/12/sally_jenkins_finally_writes_about.php I'm well aware that Sally Jenkins allowed her loyalty to Lance to cloud her objectivity toward him. She wrote a book for him and she was favorably influenced by his involvement in the "live strong" cancer cause. To put it mildly she was duped and proved very wrong on her judgment of him and what he did. My minority position on this issue has little to do with any favoritism toward the affected qb. It focuses on the disciplinary process run by the commissioner. In my view it is an erratic and unfair process that when reviewed by outside arbitrators is very often overruled. My position on this issue is clear to everyone. Until there is something new with respect to the proceedings I will bow out. For me this topic has been exhausted and I can't contribute anything new, at least for now. It has gotten to the point where repeating myself has irritated me as it does others.
NoSaint Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Ay-yi-yi, I'm going to explain it again....slowly. 1) NFL asks for TB's phone to investigate Deflategate. 2) TB freaks because along with Deflategate texts, there are texts about (hypothetical) stealing signals, hacking playbooks, PED's etc. etc.. 3) TB destroys phone. not over football inflation, but over possible issues that would be 100 times worse. Again, I'm spitballing, but you have to wonder why TB is taking such extreme measures over a relatively minor transgression. It could be just his ego, but it could be a lot more we have no idea about. and ill say again, and leave it at that, if hes so concerned about the Elephant that hes hiding, why wouldnt he just walk away from this before court? while its possible you are right, it hardly follows common sense or reason as a logical jump.
4merper4mer Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 and ill say again, and leave it at that, if hes so concerned about the Elephant that hes hiding, why wouldnt he just walk away from this before court? while its possible you are right, it hardly follows common sense or reason as a logical jump.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) To everyone talking PV=nRT you guys know that the equation works only in Kelvin, right? It means that if you're talking about temperature as the only factor you're talking about, when you finish the conversion to F, you're talking about the difference of a 12% drop I'm pressure (12.5 to 11.5 PSI, converted to atmospheres) you're looking at the equivalent from going from 32 to like 10. (Edit : double checked conversions) Edited July 31, 2015 by WhitewalkerInPhilly
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Reading their petition, it seems to me that they hit on all of the salient points. 125. It is undisputed that, prior to the AFC Championship Game, the League had no collection and testing procedures for assessing changes in football pressure. As a consequence, the officials did not know to-and therefore did not-record critical information such as the temperafure of the locker room where the footballs were tested, the specific gauge used to conduct the testing (here, multiple gauges were used with diflerent calibrations), whether each of the balls was wet or dry (and how wet or dry), or the sequence or timing of the measurements (which was critical, as the balls heated up inside the room but were each measured at different times). In the testing they accounted for all of those things. None of them affected the outcome. Read the report. They know the temp of the room, it's constant. They KNEW which gauge was used, it could not be more clear now. They tested wet and dry balls. And the change. That was a lot of the testing. It's all there. They were measured at different times, within about 5 minutes. And again, even if everything, repeat, everything was totally in the Patriots favor - everything went their way (which is very unlikely to begin with)- the ball in question and at least one other was still below the possibilities. That's why they said it didn't even matter.
K-9 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Reading their petition, it seems to me that they hit on all of the salient points. 125. It is undisputed that, prior to the AFC Championship Game, the League had no collection and testing procedures for assessing changes in football pressure. As a consequence, the officials did not know to-and therefore did not-record critical information such as the temperafure of the locker room where the footballs were tested, the specific gauge used to conduct the testing (here, multiple gauges were used with diflerent calibrations), whether each of the balls was wet or dry (and how wet or dry), or the sequence or timing of the measurements (which was critical, as the balls heated up inside the room but were each measured at different times). But the league did have a collection and testing procedure prior to the AFC Championship Game; the same one Brady never had a problem with before. I'll ask again: is it reasonable to assume that the behaviors of certain people before and after the game may lead one to assume natural occurrences alone may not explain the differences in air pressure before the game and at halftime? GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I'm well aware that Sally Jenkins allowed her loyalty to Lance to cloud her objectivity toward him. She wrote a book for him and she was favorably influenced by his involvement in the "live strong" cancer cause. To put it mildly she was duped and proved very wrong on her judgment of him and what he did. My minority position on this issue has little to do with any favoritism toward the affected qb. It focuses on the disciplinary process run by the commissioner. In my view it is an erratic and unfair process that when reviewed by outside arbitrators is very often overruled. My position on this issue is clear to everyone. Until there is something new with respect to the proceedings I will bow out. For me this topic has been exhausted and I can't contribute anything new, at least for now. It has gotten to the point where repeating myself has irritated me as it does others. There is something brand new, that answers the major question all detractors have, and it blows apart the argument that you and Sally and others are holding to. But the league did have a collection and testing procedure prior to the AFC Championship Game; the same one Brady never had a problem with before. I'll ask again: is it reasonable to assume that the behaviors of certain people before and after the game may lead one to assume natural occurrences alone may not explain the differences in air pressure before the game and at halftime? GO BILLS!!! Brady had McNally come to the Officials room with the balls and a copy of the rules. I'm not making that up. "Second, at least by the time of the AFC Championship Game, the inflation level of the footballs was a matter of particular interest to Mr. Brady. He told the Patriots' equipment staff that he wanted the footballs inflated at the lowest permissible level; he reviewed a highlighted copy of the provision of the Playing Rules that addressed inflation of footballs; and he instructed the equipment staff to present a copy of the rule to the game officials.
K-9 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 To everyone talking PV=nRT you guys know that the equation works only in Kelvin, right? It means that if you're talking about temperature as the only factor you're talking about, when you finish the conversion to F, you're talking about the difference of a 12% drop I'm pressure (12.5 to 11.5 PSI, converted to atmospheres) you're looking at the equivalent from going from 32 (freezing) to something like -24 f. It was 51 degrees at game time in Foxbororo. GO BILLS!!!
DC Tom Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 To everyone talking PV=nRT you guys know that the equation works only in Kelvin, right? It means that if you're talking about temperature as the only factor you're talking about, when you finish the conversion to F, you're talking about the difference of a 12% drop I'm pressure (12.5 to 11.5 PSI, converted to atmospheres) you're looking at the equivalent from going from 32 (freezing) to something like -24 f. Do a search, I did the math months ago and posted it. And yes, I did it in Kelvin.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Do a search, I did the math months ago and posted it. And yes, I did it in Kelvin. Yeah, but you're on the right side.
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