GG Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 So playing with a ball 1 or 2 PSI light gives the same competitive disadvantage as knowing what your opponents cards are in poker? You can poo poo it all you want, but the reality is that Brady instructed two company employees to break the code of conduct of his company and the industry standards. If this were any other company, Brady would be facing jail time or at least lose his job for good. Four games is nothing.
NoSaint Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I agree completely. I'm trying to think of an analogy but really can't. Some people act as if it's the same thing as just putting a needle in a ball on the sidelines and letting a little air out. Let's say that is the equivalent of playing five card draw poker and someone looking at your hand. It's cheating. You and everyone else would be pissed. But it's one hand and hey he cheated but you're not going to kick him out of the game. This, however, is like having your buddy who is hosting the game mark the entire deck of cards right before the biggest high stakes game, and over the course of the whole night or a series of nights, consistently cheating, every once in a while knowing what another player had in his hand. If you're caught doing that, you're kicked out for good and no one wants to ever play with you. Ignoring your poker analogy.... But to the theft of the balls being so major for you, I'm curious how you would feel under the scenario that Tom may have pressured the guys in the past, and was generally aware they were underinflated but didn't know anything about the process beyond the general assumption that rules were being broken?
Augie Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Ignoring your poker analogy.... But to the theft of the balls being so major for you, I'm curious how you would feel under the scenario that Tom may have pressured the guys in the past, and was generally aware they were underinflated but didn't know anything about the process beyond the general assumption that rules were being broken? "the general assumption that rules were being broken." What more is needed? He pressured in the past, they did his bidding and have now lost their jobs for it. He should do the same, at least for some period of time. Some might say 4 weeks. Under this scenario.
Rocky Landing Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Ignoring your poker analogy.... But to the theft of the balls being so major for you, I'm curious how you would feel under the scenario that Tom may have pressured the guys in the past, and was generally aware they were underinflated but didn't know anything about the process beyond the general assumption that rules were being broken? A lot of hay has been made of the language in the Wells report-- specifically, phrases like, "was generally aware," and "more likely than not." That phraseology seems vague, and many Patriot* apologists have jumped on that as a way of deflating the case against Brady (please, pardon the pun). But, these phrases that Wells used were not an indication of the exact likelihood of his findings, but an indication of the burden of proof required in the Wells investigation which also happens to be the same burden of proof in any civil trial-- that is, a preponderance of evidence. To state that something was, "more likely than not," can in this way mean anything from a 51% likelihood to a 99%likelihood, because a 51% likelihood is all that a civil arbitration needs to show. That Brady was, "at least generally aware," is exactly what Wells needed to show to reach his conclusion. But, I think that any reasonable person (which probably isn't me) would suspect that Brady was probably much more than just, "generally aware."
NoSaint Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 And to my hypothetical I'm not remotely arguing Brady wasn't a part of the whole to-do but questioning whether the scheme to steal the balls that the last few posts had been discussing might not be a direct tie to Brady beyond them thinking they better find a way to get them how he likes. It was just getting to a tone where it sounded given that Brady was intimately involved in the fine details, and that I'm not confident saying even if I think he was aware the balls were low and rules were broken and it was to make him happy
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Ignoring your poker analogy.... But to the theft of the balls being so major for you, I'm curious how you would feel under the scenario that Tom may have pressured the guys in the past, and was generally aware they were underinflated but didn't know anything about the process beyond the general assumption that rules were being broken? McNally told Anderson before the game "Tom wants these at 12.5". McNally was given strict orders. He even had the rules with him if I'm not mistaken. The patriots already set the balls at 12.5 and McNally told Anderson at the lowest amount. Anderson measured them and 10 of 12 were at 12.5 two were under. So he added air to those two to make them 12.5. Belichick had already said we like them at 12.5 too. That is proof that he knew McNally and he knew what the pressure was and specifically knew the rules. There is no chance they did it on their own. So the concept that he didn't know McNally was going to steal them is not likely but really doesn't matter. He knew they were going to be set at 12.5, and then knew McNally was going to lower them after the officials measured them. "Second, at least by the time of the AFC Championship Game, the inflation level of the footballs was a matter of particular interest to Mr. Brady. He told the Patriots' equipment staff that he wanted the footballs inflated at the lowest permissible level; he reviewed a highlighted copy of the provision of the Playing Rules that addressed inflation of footballs; and he instructed the equipment staff to present a copy of the rule to the game officials. On the day of the AFC Championship Game, Mr. McNally told referee Walt Anderson that Mr. Brady wanted the balls inflated to a pressure of 12.5 psi. He told the investigators that "Tom ... always has me pass a message to the Official's [sic] that he likes the balls at the minimum permissible PSI of 12.5. ... I know this is what Tom wants, and I have been personally told by him of the ball weight preference." Edited July 31, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
Pneumonic Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) What Brandt is saying is another thing that people who think Brady has a decent chance are constantly ignoring. This really isn't about is it fair for Goodell to give him four games as it is is it fair for Goodell to judge at all, and even more than that, will a judge step in and overturn arbitration. Chances are tiny. The judge isn't really going to look at the case much right off the bat. He's going to say 1] Does Goodell have authority to be judge, jury and executioner (Yes, the NFLPA gave that to him) and did he do something absolutely insane that negates the idea of arbitration (No. You could argue it's way too much in your opinion but most people think no and it's not). A lot of players get suspended. The Judge may not even get to the four or five major points the NFLPA is arguing. I would say it's even simpler. Any judge, with an ounce of common sense, will look at this case and plainly see that the league had insufficient procedures in place (ie failure to gather the right information to even know whether the balls were artificially deflated or not, not measuring the temperature nor the timing nor the wetness or anything for that matter) which would make it impossible to know what did, or didn't, happen to the balls that night in order to render a decision. Without such procedures, it is impossible, for anyone, to hand down discipline in a fair and consistent manner. Edited July 31, 2015 by Pneumonic
Kelly the Dog Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I would say it's even simpler. Any judge, with an ounce of common sense, will look at this case and plainly see that the league had insufficient procedures in place (ie failure to gather the right information to even know whether the balls were artificially deflated or not, not measuring the temperature nor the timing nor the wetness or anything for that matter) which would make it impossible to know what did, or didn't, happen to the balls that night in order to render a decision. Without such procedures, it is impossible, for anyone, to hand down discipline in a fair and consistent manner. Sorry but that is just ill-informed and stupid. They had very clear procedures to know if they were deflated and they followed them. The Pats gave them the balls from the ball bag (McNally), told them (Anderson) the PSI they wanted exactly. The Official measured them the way they always do and are supposed to, and then put them back in the bag to bring out to the game. When one of the balls was thought to be deflated, they took it out of the game, at halftime they took the rest and measured them all again, found they were all below, and took them out of the game. When they were found to be deflated they did an exhaustive study. The maker of the ball said the elements could not have affected them that much. Even if the ideal gas law was followed to the greatest amount, a couple of the balls, including the ONE in question, was still under. If you want to say the league did not have a specific policy to follow if one team stole all the balls and altered them, then yes, they didn't have a "If a team steals the balls, this is what you do" provision. Edited July 31, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
Buffalo Barbarian Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 @ProFootballTalk: Roger Goodell upholds Tom Brady's four-game suspension http://t.co/Hu4ijHCu3o @janesports: From NFL decision: "On or shortly before March 6... Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed." @AdamSchefter: Regarding NFL decision to uphold Brady suspension, here is league statement: In the opinion informing Brady that... http://t.co/YEuv2dl5bU Smart move for continued play. I think Brady wins in court, Although he looks guilty they don't have hard evidence nor did they have a policy in place for tampering
l< j Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I would say it's even simpler. Any judge, with an ounce of common sense, will look at this case and plainly see that ... ... Brady had knowledge that balls were stolen from a game official and covered up that knowledge. That Pats employees conspired to steal these balls and he knew it is all anyone with common sense needs to consider. The gauge is sideshow. kj Edited July 31, 2015 by l< j
MattM Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I remain stunned that there are so many Pats* defenders on this board--a team that's been caught cheating repeatedly and accused of much, much more--in the face of mounting evidence of their cheating. I mean, the guy destroyed his phone in order to avoid giving over evidence. Three days ago, when that came up as a Steven A. Smith-hinted possibility these same folks were saying that the messenger was so often wrong that such a supposition was ludicrous, but seemed to admit that if it was true it would be a big deal. Now that we know that's true, some of those same folks have found new ways to gloss over that same major development. Amazing willful blindness in defense of....?...a well-known and documented cheating opponent? Really? (On Yee's and Brady's explanations of why that specific phone was destroyed, they are laughable at best--first it was that Brady cycles his phones regularly and destroys all of the old ones (oops, except the last couple before the phone in question), then it was that Brady wanted the "new" Iphone 6 (oops, that phone came out 6 months earlier--in fact, well before he'd even bought the second to last phone he used), then it was well, we cooperated and gave you the names of about 30 folks who might have relevant testimony--go sue all of them for the messages. Sorry, you don't get to smash the evidence into a gazillion pieces and then bring all the pieces and say "Here, it's all there, you fix it." Our discovery system doesn't work that way.) If I didn't know better I'd be wondering if we've been invaded by sockpuppets! Amazing.....
K-9 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 "the general assumption that rules were being broken." What more is needed? He pressured in the past, they did his bidding and have now lost their jobs for it. He should do the same, at least for some period of time. Some might say 4 weeks. Under this scenario. Kind of like when the Don orders a hit on somebody, he doesn't care how you whack the guy. GO BILLS!!!
K-9 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Smart move for continued play. I think Brady wins in court, Although he looks guilty they don't have hard evidence nor did they have a policy in place for tampering Lack of hard evidence in the face of that mountain of inculpable circumstantial evidence is meaningless given the preponderance standard required and achieved. The policy for conduct detrimental is in every standard player contract. Not sure how you can say a policy wasn't in place. GO BILLS!!!
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) I brought that up earlier in this thread, it's the first thing i thought of, and was shot down by the Brady radar defense system. Brady's agent said yesterday that he changed from Samsung to IPhone 6 because the iPhone 6 had just come out and he wanted the new phone. Except that it had come out six months earlier. Before Brady's second last phone. fact check The iPhone 6 was released in October. I had one in November 2014. Soooo he was 4 months late for the new release @janesports: From NFL decision: "On or shortly before March 6... Brady directed that the cell phone he had used for the prior four months be destroyed." Edited July 31, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever
PlayoffsPlease Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Lack of hard evidence in the face of that mountain of inculpable circumstantial evidence is meaningless given the preponderance standard required and achieved. The policy for conduct detrimental is in every standard player contract. Not sure how you can say a policy wasn't in place. GO BILLS!!! Football isn't the marines. "conduct detrimental" probably means different things to different people. If the high school principal called your house and said your son had just crashed his car into the school, and they had discovered he had illegal synthetic marijuana with him, you probably would be more upset than if the principal callled you up and said they the coach of last weeks football opponent had accused your son of letting air of the football. Part of virtually every NFL football game is purposeful cheating. Intentional late hits, trying to hold players without getting caught, purposeful pass interference on plays that would result in a TD if not for the interference. Some of these are not spur of the moment decisions by players. They are techniques and strategies taught. And their is specific penalties spelled out for them. These penalties are the same in the Super Bowl as in a preseason game. And they are the same for 12-0 teams as for 0-12 teams. In short all teams game plan to "cheat". As far as I know, no player has ever been suspended for "conduct detrimental" after making an illegal play that changed the outcome of a game. There was a precedent for penalizing teams in the NFL for not having the balls properly inflated. It had been previously enforced with the Vikings and Jaguars. It was a $25k fine. No lost draft picks no suspensions. Its quite possible the Patriots decided this penalty was worth risking, just like teams decide holding instead of allowing a sack is worthwhile. I think fans would be upset if on occasion a blatant hold was such a game changer that the refs decided to make it a 30 yard penalty and loss of down instead of a 10 yard penalty and repeating the down. The NFLPA/Patriots beef seems to be primarily a version of the arbitrariness of the rule making process and the rule making itself. I actually agree with them on that. Brady's beef seems to be his insistence he didn't do anything wrong. I don't actually understand his reasons for making that assertion. In the long run, the NFL diminishes its brand if people think the rules are just being made up along the way.
PlayoffsPlease Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 fact check The iPhone 6 was released in October. I had one in November 2014 Maybe he just became eligible for the free upgrade. Money might be tight in the Brady household.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Maybe he just became eligible for the free upgrade. Money might be tight in the Brady household. LOL the cheap bahstahd yeah that moat must of cost em a few extra $ moat or iPhone 6??? Edited July 31, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 I agree completely. I'm trying to think of an analogy but really can't. Some people act as if it's the same thing as just putting a needle in a ball on the sidelines and letting a little air out. Let's say that is the equivalent of playing five card draw poker and someone looking at your hand. It's cheating. You and everyone else would be pissed. But it's one hand and hey he cheated but you're not going to kick him out of the game. This, however, is like having your buddy who is hosting the game mark the entire deck of cards right before the biggest high stakes game, and over the course of the whole night or a series of nights, consistently cheating, every once in a while knowing what another player had in his hand. If you're caught doing that, you're kicked out for good and no one wants to ever play with you. The analogy I like is this: Brady committed an offense like doing 55 mph in a 30 mph zone. A lot of people do it, and lot of the time the cops decide it's not worth getting out of bed for. Most people grumble about the ticket but cough it up. Others, more savvy, get it pled down to a non-moving violation. Brady is the guy who asked to cop "Do I smell bacon...oh it's just a pig" and is then shocked when he gets a reck less driving ticket as well, shouts that he'll have that cops badge and shows up in Traffic Court thinking he's Matlock.
GG Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Brady's beef seems to be his insistence he didn't do anything wrong. I don't actually understand his reasons for making that assertion. And that is why he'll be sitting for 4 games.
K-9 Posted July 31, 2015 Posted July 31, 2015 Football isn't the marines. "conduct detrimental" probably means different things to different people. If the high school principal called your house and said your son had just crashed his car into the school, and they had discovered he had illegal synthetic marijuana with him, you probably would be more upset than if the principal callled you up and said they the coach of last weeks football opponent had accused your son of letting air of the football. Part of virtually every NFL football game is purposeful cheating. Intentional late hits, trying to hold players without getting caught, purposeful pass interference on plays that would result in a TD if not for the interference. Some of these are not spur of the moment decisions by players. They are techniques and strategies taught. And their is specific penalties spelled out for them. These penalties are the same in the Super Bowl as in a preseason game. And they are the same for 12-0 teams as for 0-12 teams. In short all teams game plan to "cheat". As far as I know, no player has ever been suspended for "conduct detrimental" after making an illegal play that changed the outcome of a game. There was a precedent for penalizing teams in the NFL for not having the balls properly inflated. It had been previously enforced with the Vikings and Jaguars. It was a $25k fine. No lost draft picks no suspensions. Its quite possible the Patriots decided this penalty was worth risking, just like teams decide holding instead of allowing a sack is worthwhile. I think fans would be upset if on occasion a blatant hold was such a game changer that the refs decided to make it a 30 yard penalty and loss of down instead of a 10 yard penalty and repeating the down. The NFLPA/Patriots beef seems to be primarily a version of the arbitrariness of the rule making process and the rule making itself. I actually agree with them on that. Brady's beef seems to be his insistence he didn't do anything wrong. I don't actually understand his reasons for making that assertion. In the long run, the NFL diminishes its brand if people think the rules are just being made up along the way. Everything but your second to last paragraph misses the point as it relates to the Brady case. GO BILLS!!!
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