Brady 4 game suspension upheld; Will go to court

[Wayne Cubed]

Oh please. This is just sophistry. They're all functionally the same transgression. As for stickum, Lester Hayes begs to disagree with you on whether it's an asset. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-07/sports/sns-rt-us-nfl-chargers-finebre8a705v-20121107_1_towels-san-diego-chargers-nfl

 

Stickum was banned in 1981.

 

The sticky towels the Chargers were using weren't banned at the time. They just weren't allowed to be used on the actual balls.

 

The punishment, in the end, was for not complying with an official when the ball boy was asked to.

[K-9]

I don't disagree about the cover up--although the Chargers did refuse to surrender their stickum towels. This isn't directed at you, but people hate the Pats so much here that they develop silly legalistic arguments to wish away the fact that they aren't the only team doing this sort of thing.

I've been saying that players have been looking for ways to gain an edge since the game started. That will never change. I've known an NFL quarterback who scuffed up practice balls with a nail, in camp. IN CAMP! From stickum to silicone sprayed on their jerseys, players will push the envelope until forced to stop.

 

But this case is unique. I honestly can't think of any other organization, whether previously found guilty and fined or not, that refused to cooperate at this level. It's unprecedented. And then showed such contempt for the process.

 

If you haven't read Goodell's final report filed in court yesterday, please do. I now know why there were 40 people in that room at the appeal hearing. It may sound "legalistic" because that's what it is, but it's well presented in every facet. It's no wonder that some legal scholars have given it high marks.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[MattM]

For all those wondering how we'd react in similar circumstances I offer one, Orenthal James Simpson. At the risk of showing my age here, he was a god in my house growing up, but neither I nor anyone else on this board have any illusions about what he did.

 

It's just a special kind of stupid in Boston.....

[Beerball]

that the nfl, allegedly (and its a big allegedly but all we are really working with here is rumor anyway with regards to the punishment), refused to seal the records as part of the negotiation means that at the very least it wouldnt be private.

so you're hung up on the fact that the information may have become public?

[dave mcbride]

When Lester Hayes played there was more stickum than there was Lester Hayes.

 

If you want to equate a ballboy at a freezing game, who is allowed to warm the ball with the hand warmer but it wasn't working sufficiently enough, so in order to keep the ball from freezing walked over to a heater - to - stealing all the game balls from the officials before a championship game and altering them all intentionally in a bathroom to become abnormal balls and to your advantage. Fine. It's not the same thing whatsoever.

We have to agree to disagree on this. In my view, the penalty essentially boils down to three things (not one of which is the transgression itself, which is as minor as the ones I've cited above): a) the Patriots' and Brady's behavior in reaction to the allegations; b) the team's previous transgressions in the Belichick era; and c) the concerted efforts of pretty good teams that have historically struggled to beat the Patriots to nail them once and for all. Jim Irsay is the leader of that pack, and he's a jackass who is terrible at team building but supremely lucky at drafting QBs. But he appears to have won this round.

[K-9]

does anyone think this will hurt Brady with the HOF? I would love for him to not be a first ballot guy or better yet, never get in like Pete Rose.

 

If I was a voter I would never vote for him, but thats me.

I should hope not. Regardless of this episode, Brady is still one of the best to ever lace 'em up and deserves to be a first ballot HOFer.

 

But the process is political, so who knows how the electors will vote.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[stevewin]

Kraft: "It is routine for discipline in the NFL to be reduced upon appeal."

 

 

Thats what the problem is in the NFL today. Everyone thinks that just by appealing their suspension that it will get reduced.

 

I know this is usually how it goes but now people expect it.

 

There is nothing that says appealing a suspension will result in it being reduced.

 

 

Does this mean Dareus can appeal and have his suspension lifted?

 

 

 

CBF

And the other problem is now people try to compare all penalties for relative fairness, even if it's apples and oranges. If I saw one more pro-Pats** talking head say last night "Greg Hardy got 4 games and it doesn't compare to this" I was going to scream. Amazed at the ignorance, that people didn't comprehend some of Brady's punishment is for being non-cooperative - and it was about integrity of the game, not how much of an actual advantage a ball with lower PSI gives you.

 

Every case is different with different circumstances.

[dave mcbride]

 

The sticky towels the Chargers were using weren't banned at the time. They just weren't allowed to be used on the actual balls.

 

The punishment, in the end, was for not complying with an official when the ball boy was asked to.

They were certainly banned with regard to usage. The Chargers didn't get caught doing it because they opted not to hand them over. It's a remarkably similar story once you think about it -- the equivalent of not taking a breathalizer test.

[NoSaint]

so you're hung up on the fact that the information may have become public?

im not sure how you have read the series of posts youve replied to, and thought im hung up on the request at all.

 

all i said is that kraft, given the leagues propensity to reduce punishment if people stop fighting, probably was fair to think that by accepting the franchises punishment could be helping brady.

 

you are the one that detoured into plea agreements, and then after i made the "public" apology statement in reply asked why im assuming its public. heck, i even said that it probably wasnt unreasonable given the pats press conferences.

[The Big Cat]

I should hope not. Regardless of this episode, Brady is still one of the best to ever lace 'em up and deserves to be a first ballot HOFer.

 

But the process is political, so who knows how the electors will vote.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

For the sake of argument though: knowing the defense's calls and having a ball deflated beyond an acceptable standard would...you know...help render a QB "one of the best to ever lace 'em up."

[Kelly the Dog]

We have to agree to disagree on this. In my view, the penalty essentially boils down to three things (not one of which is the transgression itself, which is as minor as the ones I've cited above): a) the Patriots' and Brady's behavior in reaction to the allegations; b) the team's previous transgressions in the Belichick era; and c) the concerted efforts of pretty good teams that have historically struggled to beat the Patriots to nail them once and for all. Jim Irsay is the leader of that pack, and he's a jackass who is terrible at team building but supremely lucky at drafting QBs. But he appears to have won this round.

Please read the Goodell report. You don't have to just take his word for everything, just keep an open mind. He also debunked a lot of the AEI argument, too.

[Nanker]

thats part of the trouble when the league offers reductions based on publicly accepting penalties, or increases potentially for fighting them (have seen the threat in the past)

 

if the rumor is true that brady would have to publicly apologize to have it reduced to 2 and if he grovelled enough it could be 1, its not that crazy for an owner to think that if the franchise steps up and accepts penalty it may help in other considerations.

But Brady*** refused to fess up. He punked his owner! It's a perfect screwgie by a perfect azzhat. The owner pays a million dollars, loses two draft picks, fires two employees and demands an apology from The League. If Brady*** went along with the bribe Kraft made, we'd never have heard what Brady*** copped to behind closed doors. It would have been like erasing another set of tapes.

[The Big Cat]

im not sure how you have read the series of posts youve replied to, and thought im hung up on the request at all.

 

all i said is that kraft, given the leagues propensity to reduce punishment if people stop fighting, probably was fair to think that by accepting the franchises punishment could be helping brady.

 

you are the one that detoured into plea agreements, and then after i made the "public" apology statement in reply asked why im assuming its public. heck, i even said that it probably wasnt unreasonable given the pats press conferences.

 

I don't believe the precedent you're referring to and the tit for tat agreement Kraft alluded to are analogous.

[GG]

When Lester Hayes played there was more stickum than there was Lester Hayes.

 

If you want to equate a ballboy at a freezing game, who is allowed to warm the ball with the hand warmer but it wasn't working sufficiently enough, so in order to keep the ball from freezing walked over to a heater - to - stealing all the game balls from the officials before a championship game and altering them all intentionally in a bathroom to become abnormal balls and to your advantage. Fine. It's not the same thing whatsoever.

 

Am I correct to understand that the ball heating was discovered during the game and that ball never made it to the field and Carolina never covered up the act?

 

People also need to put in context that the Adelphia fraud was a few million dollars in a multibillion dollar company. It was the way they committed the fraud and subsequent coverup that did them in.

[Wayne Cubed]

They were certainly banned with regard to usage. The Chargers didn't get caught doing it because they opted not to hand them over. It's a remarkably similar story once you think about it -- the equivalent of not taking a breathalizer test.

 

The ball boy refused to give it over. The Chargers as an organization cooperated and accepted the penalty.

 

They aren't similar at all.

 

They would be similar if the ball boy denied doing anything wrong. He then refused to cooperate with the investigation. The Chargers denied all wrong doing. The ball boy smashed his cell phone.

 

EDIT: The whole Charger infraction was wrapped up rather quickly because they admitted guilt.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Wayne Cubed

[Matt in KC]

So why does the league fine players and coaches for criticizing officials or their calls in games? Do they issue fines for criticisms of the league in the off-season? When does that kick in again?

[Kelly the Dog]

I should hope not. Regardless of this episode, Brady is still one of the best to ever lace 'em up and deserves to be a first ballot HOFer.

 

But the process is political, so who knows how the electors will vote.

 

GO BILLS!!!

It's possible if not probable that some voters will say, or think, that yes he deserves to be first ballot as a player, but he clearly hurt the integrity of the game by his actions and denials and therefore I am not voting for him until the second time.

 

That's probably what I would do if I was a voter and I don't think the deflating helped him much, I don't think spy gate helped him much, and I do think he was one of the very best 2-3 ever to play the game.

[Beerball]

im not sure how you have read the series of posts youve replied to, and thought im hung up on the request at all.

 

all i said is that kraft, given the leagues propensity to reduce punishment if people stop fighting, probably was fair to think that by accepting the franchises punishment could be helping brady.

 

you are the one that detoured into plea agreements, and then after i made the "public" apology statement in reply asked why im assuming its public. heck, i even said that it probably wasnt unreasonable given the pats press conferences.

I'm just quoting your words and making suppositions based on them. You said that perhaps brady didn't agree because the league reportedly would not agree to seal the records of the appeal. We all like to pick nits from time to time, don't we?

[K-9]

We have to agree to disagree on this. In my view, the penalty essentially boils down to three things (not one of which is the transgression itself, which is as minor as the ones I've cited above): a) the Patriots' and Brady's behavior in reaction to the allegations; b) the team's previous transgressions in the Belichick era; and c) the concerted efforts of pretty good teams that have historically struggled to beat the Patriots to nail them once and for all. Jim Irsay is the leader of that pack, and he's a jackass who is terrible at team building but supremely lucky at drafting QBs. But he appears to have won this round.

I think this is a fair assessment. Some may pooh-pooh the aspect of Irsay's influence if he had any, but Goodell upset a good number of the owners with his handling of Spygate and there have been other complaints about the Patriots for years. It's not unreasonable to think that Goodell remembered he has to answer to 31 other owners in this league.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

It's possible if not probable that some voters will say, or think, that yes he deserves to be first ballot as a player, but he clearly hurt the integrity of the game by his actions and denials and therefore I am not voting for him until the second time.

 

That's probably what I would do if I was a voter and I don't think the deflating helped him much, I don't think spy gate helped him much, and I do think he was one of the very best 2-3 ever to play the game.

i wouldnt be surprised. at first reaction, i likely agree with everything there.

 

has football been as aggressive as baseball in that regard? if it were baseball, id think it to almost be a gimme, honestly.