Brady 4 game suspension upheld; Will go to court

[K-9]

This could mean a host of different things, but I find it interesting that Brady will not be at next week's settlement meaning. I'm not saying it's to either side's advantage, but it allows both sides to be a little more honest in front of the judge, especially in his private chambers. It's like when negotiating a player's contract. The team doesn't want the player in the room when they say "He sucks at blocking!" and the agent for the player doesn't want him to be there when he says, "Okay, he's not the greatest blocker but he excels at..."

 

It now allows the NFL to say to Berman, "Does anyone really believe he's not lying?"

But Brady does suck at blocking!

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

It would be hard from him to deny that he was "generally aware"!

if nothing else, both sides get some fun jokes to slide into posts for years.

[K-9]

That makes sense to me. I would not expect a judge in appeal to embark on a fact finding mission. He must accept the facts as disclosed in the evidence and gathered in the proceedings below. However, whether those facts meet the "preponderance of evidence" standard required by the CBA in order to justify disciplinary action is to me a question of law that the judge can and indeed should consider in coming to a decision. So I found the judge's comments referencing the lack of direct evidence of Brady's involvement in a scheme to deflate footballs interesting and I interpreted them in this light ie he is telling the League that they may not have discharged the required burden of proof with regard to this matter (leaving open the issue of having failed to cooperate, which he also spoke to). I wonder if he is not pointing them in the direction he would like them to go as a basis for settlement.

Does the judge's concern about lack of direct evidence mean he automatically dismisses the circumstantial evidence?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mr. WEO]

Does the judge's concern about lack of direct evidence mean he automatically dismisses the circumstantial evidence?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

Not necessarily autonmatically, but yes he can. Just as any jury would be free to

[dave mcbride]

if nothing else, both sides get some fun jokes to slide into posts for years.

true!

[Kelly the Dog]

Just throwing this out there: who thinks what Brady apparently did in the Colts game is worse than this deliberate form of cheating -- http://gamedayrcom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/mike-tomlin-jacoby-jones1.png-- which generated a $100K fine and 0 lost draft picks? Forget about history for a second (and evidence-free suppositions about deflation below 12.5 in prior games, for that matter). One to one: which is worse?

I would say what Brady did is approximately 10000x worse considering what Brady did cost himself and therefore his team four games they didnt have to they will probably lose one or two they would have won with him, a number one pick (and a #4) which is huge, a million dollar fine or however much that was, cost his team a lot in PR now being ridiculed and called cheaters which was totally unnecessary, cost the league probably 6-7m in money they didn't have to pay out only because of him, cost two guys their jobs, and cost me hours of mental anguish having to respond to idiots (not you).

[Mr. WEO]

I would say what Brady did is approximately 10000x worse considering what Brady did cost himself and therefore his team four games they didnt have to they will probably lose one or two they would have won with him, a number one pick (and a #4) which is huge, a million dollar fine or however much that was, cost his team a lot in PR now being ridiculed and called cheaters which was totally unnecessary, cost the league probably 6-7m in money they didn't have to pay out only because of him, cost two guys their jobs, and cost me hours of mental anguish having to respond to idiots (not you).

 

 

You didn't answer his question...

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

You didn't answer his question...

It's basically the same answer. The actual act is 1000 times worse to. Premeditated, intentional conspiracy involving at least two team employees to stealing all his team's game balls from the officials and altering them before a Championship Game. That is something I can only think of one person doing.

 

What Tomlin did is basically harmless, not premeditated, not involving any conspiracy, not altering the game or the equipment in any way, and pretty much anyone could have done it by mistake.

 

Then what Brady did after the game was an additional 9000 times worse than Tomlin, who apologized.

[NoSaint]

It's basically the same answer. The actual act is 1000 times worse to. Premeditated, intentional conspiracy involving at least two team employees to stealing all his team's game balls from the officials and altering them before a Championship Game. That is something I can only think of one person doing.

 

What Tomlin did is basically harmless, not premeditated, not involving any conspiracy, not altering the game or the equipment in any way, and pretty much anyone could have done it by mistake.

 

Then what Brady did after the game was an additional 9000 times worse than Tomlin, who apologized.

come on... your letting tomlin off REALLY easy compared to your take on brady to make this point. Anyone couldve done it accidentally, but who has ever? He apologized, but did he take responsibility? basically harmless minus the very easily quantifiable harm? since when was whether game equipment altered a major hurdle in defining cheating? Edited August 13, 2015 by NoSaint

[K-9]

It's basically the same answer. The actual act is 1000 times worse to. Premeditated, intentional conspiracy involving at least two team employees to stealing all his team's game balls from the officials and altering them before a Championship Game. That is something I can only think of one person doing.

 

What Tomlin did is basically harmless, not premeditated, not involving any conspiracy, not altering the game or the equipment in any way, and pretty much anyone could have done it by mistake.

 

Then what Brady did after the game was an additional 9000 times worse than Tomlin, who apologized.

I think Jacoby Jones would have been awarded a penalty shot if Tomlin actually tripped him.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[starrymessenger]

Does the judge's concern about lack of direct evidence mean he automatically dismisses the circumstantial evidence?

 

GO BILLS!!!

I would most certainly think not. In his comments the judge referenced only the lack of direct evidence. There is little doubt that the required burden of proof can be established through circumstantial evidence in any civil matter and indeed in a CBA arbitration hearing since the standard is the same. A text message from Brady instructing the attendants to deflate balls would obviously make the case but such evidence is not necessary. Furthermore the judge has no choice but to consider the weight of such circumstantial evidence since the League relied on it. He may or may not consider it to be of sufficient weight to affirm the Commisioner's conclusions. What he was doing here was saying to the League "Hey, your case is not water tight" in the interests of encouraging a settlement. But it's still open to him ultimately to decide that the circumstantial evidence is good enuf. Maybe the case turns on whether he is a football fan who knows or believes that ball boys don't do this sort of thing on their own (also taking into account necessary inferences from Brady's alleged non-cooperation).

[Augie]

Premeditation and a cover-up are huge factors in my mind. They may have nothing to do with how the court views this (or the scope of what they are considering), but it's a big deal to me. And that's before you ever consider their track record.

[Kelly the Dog]

come on... your letting tomlin off REALLY easy compared to your take on brady to make this point. Anyone couldve done it accidentally, but who has ever? He apologized, but did he take responsibility? basically harmless minus the very easily quantifiable harm? since when was whether game equipment altered a major hurdle in defining cheating?

I just watched the play again before I posted. It was 100% unintentional. It didn't make Jones alter his return. It didn't affect the game one bit. It could have happened to any player and any coach. I take my 1000 times worse statement back. Brady's was 2000 times worse. Tomlin didn't do anything that affected anything whatsoever. If Jones were tackled because of changing his return or lost even a couple yards, then it would have been a little worse but still 100% an accident. You can see on the replay that Tomlin had his back turned the entire time.

come on... your letting tomlin off REALLY easy compared to your take on brady to make this point. Anyone couldve done it accidentally, but who has ever? He apologized, but did he take responsibility? basically harmless minus the very easily quantifiable harm? since when was whether game equipment altered a major hurdle in defining cheating?

The actual deflation and its affect on the game is relatively small IMO, other people say it's worse, and Brady wouldn't do it obviously if he himself didn't think it helped him win football games. That is inarguable. But it is only one element of why it was such a stupid and really bad thing to do, and why it is 1000x, no 2000x, worse than Tomlin who did not try to do anything bad whatsoever and even his big single mistake did not cause anything bad whatsoever.

 

EDIT: if he was watching the Jumbotron as AD said below I take that back and responded below. I didn't know that part I just watched the replay.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[Alaska Darin]

I just watched the play again before I posted. It was 100% unintentional. It didn't make Jones alter his return. It didn't affect the game one bit. It could have happened to any player and any coach. I take my 1000 times worse statement back. Brady's was 2000 times worse. Tomlin didn't do anything that affected anything whatsoever. If Jones were tackled because of changing his return or lost even a couple yards, then it would have been a little worse but still 100% an accident. You can see on the replay that Tomlin had his back turned the entire time.

 

Tomlin was watching the return on the Jumbotron. He knew what he was doing.

[Augie]

Tomlin was watching the return on the Jumbotron. He knew what he was doing.

I believe that, but there weren't several people involved and it wasn't a pre-game decision. An oppornunity to do something stupid presented itself, and apparently he just couldn't help himself. But then he took his medicine like a man.

[dave mcbride]

I just watched the play again before I posted. It was 100% unintentional. It didn't make Jones alter his return. It didn't affect the game one bit. It could have happened to any player and any coach. I take my 1000 times worse statement back. Brady's was 2000 times worse. Tomlin didn't do anything that affected anything whatsoever. If Jones were tackled because of changing his return or lost even a couple yards, then it would have been a little worse but still 100% an accident. You can see on the replay that Tomlin had his back turned the entire time.

 

Oh puhleeze! It was clearly intentional.

[Kelly the Dog]

Tomlin was watching the return on the Jumbotron. He knew what he was doing.

I didn't know that. I didn't see the game and just barely remember the incident. I just watched the replay after I googled it on YouTube.

 

So I take back that it was unintentional if that is what he was doing.

 

He didn't really try to trip him from the replay just alter the return. If he did do it intentional and altered the play, I would say he deserved a one game suspension and I know the rule is that Jones would have been awarded a TD. But he didn't alter the play so I guess the 100,000 fine was about right. Did he admit he was watching the jumbotron? I couldn't tell that's what he was doing I just looked and saw his back turned. Definitively a crappy thing to do that could have been way worse.

Oh puhleeze! It was clearly intentional.

Ha. I responded to that both above and below. I didn't know it was intentional. Yes that's a terrible thing to do and he should have been suspended if it affected the game one bit. It didn't so the fine was about right I guess. If he would have even cost jones one yard I think a one game suspension was in order.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000289505/Jones-dodges-Tomlin-on-big-kick

[Mr. WEO]

It's basically the same answer. The actual act is 1000 times worse to. Premeditated, intentional conspiracy involving at least two team employees to stealing all his team's game balls from the officials and altering them before a Championship Game. That is something I can only think of one person doing.

 

What Tomlin did is basically harmless, not premeditated, not involving any conspiracy, not altering the game or the equipment in any way, and pretty much anyone could have done it by mistake.

 

Then what Brady did after the game was an additional 9000 times worse than Tomlin, who apologized.

 

 

So, if my math is correct, that's 10000 times worse before you (just??) realized Tomlin's action was intentional. Does that knock it down to around, what 4000 times worse?

 

Dave was asking which form of cheating was worse, i believe....

[NoSaint]

I didn't know that. I didn't see the game and just barely remember the incident. I just watched the replay after I googled it on YouTube.

 

So I take back that it was unintentional if that is what he was doing.

 

He didn't really try to trip him from the replay just alter the return. If he did do it intentional and altered the play, I would say he deserved a one game suspension and I know the rule is that Jones would have been awarded a TD. But he didn't alter the play so I guess the 100,000 fine was about right. Did he admit he was watching the jumbotron? I couldn't tell that's what he was doing I just looked and saw his back turned. Definitively a crappy thing to do that could have been way worse.

 

Ha. I responded to that both above and below. I didn't know it was intentional. Yes that's a terrible thing to do and he should have been suspended if it affected the game one bit. It didn't so the fine was about right I guess. If he would have even cost jones one yard I think a one game suspension was in order.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000289505/Jones-dodges-Tomlin-on-big-kick

He danced around it a lot saying things like "it was an embarrassing blunder" and "as a coach I'm held to a higher standard and based on that I was below the line" but never really apologized and never claimed it anything but clumsy. Which it was. But it was also on purpose I think.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

So, if my math is correct, that's 10000 times worse before you (just??) realized Tomlin's action was intentional. Does that knock it down to around, what 4000 times worse?

 

Dave was asking which form of cheating was worse, i believe....

Nope. Since it was 2000 times worse when I thought it was unintentional, Brady's became only about 10 times worse if it was indeed intentional. If I thought Tomlin actually affected the return, which I don't, I think he should have been suspended.