Brady 4 game suspension upheld; Will go to court

[Kelly the Dog]

So Pash did not know enough about the report to ask basic questions at the appeal, yet he was allowed to edit the reports after he read it? Exactly how could he edit it if he wasn't very familiar with its process and findings? How did he knwo what to edit?

 

Reisner wasn't an "Exponent guy"

They were not simple questions. And Resiner knew all about the Exponent contributions he put the investigation together with Wells.

[Mr. WEO]

They were not simple questions. And Resiner knew all about the Exponent contributions he put the investigation together with Wells.

 

They were questions any examiner on the NFL's team could have figured to ask. Also, why/how/what did Pash edit?

[Kelly the Dog]

According to Wells he simply wordsmithed it. Didn't change anything. You can do an Evel Kneival sized leap of assumptions that he totally changed it to solely fit the NFL's needs if you want and look like an ass, too.

They were questions any examiner on the NFL's team could have figured to ask. Also, why/how/what did Pash edit?

Did you read the 172 pages? I did. Reisner knew exactly what to ask from someone uniquely qualified because he spent a boatload of time with those guys and months and months on the investigation. Pash read it and edited it. Probably in a day or two. We don't know what he did. But Wells has shown he will throw a hissy fit if anyone challenges anything he does so I would bet you anything Pash didn't change the report.

[Mr. WEO]

According to Wells he simply wordsmithed it. Didn't change anything. You can do an Evel Kneival sized leap of assumptions that he totally changed it to solely fit the NFL's needs if you want and look like an ass, too.

 

I'm sure, "according to Wells". But Wells also went to great lengths to claim he was an independent investigator, which is completely false.

 

And Pash didn't need to "totally change" Wells's report because (and his subcontractor Exponent) did exactly what they were paid to do (and both have done before)..

[Nanker]

papazoid, on 06 Aug 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

Why didn’t Goodell call Jastremski and McNally?

 

 

http://profootballta...ki-and-mcnally/

Ummm... Because he was the judge, not the prosecuter or the defense.

Ummm... Because he was the judge, not the prosecuter or the defense.

WRONG answer!

 

Correct answer: "To get to the other side."

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm sure, "according to Wells". But Wells also went to great lengths to claim he was an independent investigator, which is completely false.

 

And Pash didn't need to "totally change" Wells's report because (and his subcontractor Exponent) did exactly what they were paid to do (and both have done before)..

Find out Brady cheated and lied? Yep. That's exactly correct.

[NoSaint]

According to Wells he simply wordsmithed it. Didn't change anything. You can do an Evel Kneival sized leap of assumptions that he totally changed it to solely fit the NFL's needs if you want and look like an ass, too.

 

after the nfl had mary jo white fill the role of independent reviewer in bounty gate, and and publicly support claims that the nfl seemingly pulled out of thin air (literally saying "you see his lips moving" when watching a video with anthony hargroves back to the camera, a towel on his head, and the statement not making sense to have come from him, and mary jo white trying to tell reporters that they see him saying it) -- wordsmithing is a bit of a red flag, at the very least.

 

stuff like that HAS been an issue in the past.... how they dont seem to be able to avoid walking into a spot where its so easy to question integrity is baffling.

Edited August 6, 2015 by NoSaint

[starrymessenger]

Your position makes no sense to me. There is no doubt that RG has an immense amount of authority regarding disciplinary issues based on the CBA. But having almost unlimited authority does not give one a license to run amok and do whatever you want. There has to be some reasonable level of consistency, staying with the established guidelines and in general a sense of fairness.

 

Roger Goodell is not a law onto his own. He has been overruled a number of times not because he was judicious but because he was injudicious. In a number of cases when an objective eyes (arbitrators) reviewed some of his rulings it was determined that not only were his decisions off base but in the Rice case his was questionable (dishonest). In the Ray Rice case Roger Goodell lied when he said he raised the punishment in his initial ruling because he had new information. The arbitrator said that was not the case.

 

I'll say it again although to many it means little: This case isn't about Brady. The ball infranction and Brady's role is a trivial and inconsequential matter. The most important issue is the tainted process led by the commissioner. That is what should be the focus of attention. The travesty is the disciplinary process, not the PSI levels that the multi-million $$$ flawed investigation couldn't adequately determine.

 

You're right the case is about whether the Commissioner and the League had the right to do the things that they did. Seems to me like there are two different ways to challenge the League's decision. One is, as you say, bias. I would expect that to be hard for Brady to establish. It requires bad faith on the League's part. While you might not like the appointment of Wells, the presence and participation of his colleague at the appeal hearing etc...I doubt that is sufficient to establish bias.

Another and perhaps more promising avenue for Brady is to say that the League's action is wholly outside the terms of reference of the CBA (which is after all the governing document), including how it has previously been interpreted and applied. I don't know whether in considering this ground of appeal you can avoid getting into exactly what Brady is being punished for. Clearly the League believes he is being punished for more than a minor and immaterial equipment violation judging from the severity of the punishment. They have come to the conclusion that he knowingly participated in some way in a scheme to deflate game balls. They also believe that his subsequent denials are disengenuous and that he failed to fully cooperate with the investigation. Noncompliance is generally viewed in any judicial or quasi-judicial proceeding as extremely serious misbehavior.

So maybe the case boils down to whether there was any reasonable basis on the evidence for the League/Commissioner coming to the conclusion that it did concerning Brady's involvement and behavior. Remember it is not necessary for the judge to agree with the decision for him to affirm it. He might have himself come to a different conclusion on the facts and still dismiss the appeal.

Was there enuf evidence to enable the Commissioner to decide as he did (whether you agree him it or not)?

I believe there was.

And you would be wrong again. This is about a pattern of cheating by an organization that's been caught before and was told to stop it. While the punishment may seem capricious and arbitrary to you, and you say you don't care about the PSIs and the infraction, it is important because they tampered with equipment, lied about it and stonewalled the investigation. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, there plenty of instances where the penalties were much more harsh than the infraction because of a coverup.

 

Did Martha Stewart really deserve two years in prison for a $40K stock tip? Most reasonable people would say no. But she deserved it for lying and trying to destroy evidence.

 

Tommy Boy's cheating & pride are the reasons he'll be sitting for four games. If he manned up to it in January, he'd be slapped only with a $25K fine.

But then of course he would have to admit to something and he is congenitally incapable of doing that.

Edited August 6, 2015 by starrymessenger

[Kelly the Dog]

after the nfl had mary jo white fill the role of independent reviewer in bounty gate, and and publicly support claims that the nfl seemingly pulled out of thin air (literally saying "you see his lips moving" when watching a video with anthony hargroves back to the camera, a towel on his head, and the statement not making sense to have come from him, and mary jo white trying to tell reporters that they see him saying it) -- wordsmithing is a bit of a red flag, at the very least.

stuff like that HAS been an issue in the past.... how they dont seem to be able to avoid walking into a spot where its so easy to question integrity is baffling.

I agree with that completely. But without trying to bring politics into this, it's similar to say, a Senator that is making bonehead decisions, simultaneously with his or her opposition completely distorting those mistakes as if they are treasonous offenses. When the reality is likely that the Senator made some stupid mistakes and the opposition is even more disingenuous and political and just as wrong or more than the Senator.

 

The NFL may indeed be biased, Wells may indeed not be independent, Goodell may indeed be a buffoon, but the fact is, Brady cheated and then lied about it when being investigated with insane explanations, and for that he probably deserves two games for each infraction. That's the core issue.

[Mr. WEO]

I agree with that completely. But without trying to bring politics into this, it's similar to say, a Senator that is making bonehead decisions, simultaneously with his or her opposition completely distorting those mistakes as if they are treasonous offenses. When the reality is likely that the Senator made some stupid mistakes and the opposition is even more disingenuous and political and just as wrong or more than the Senator.

 

The NFL may indeed be biased, Wells may indeed not be independent, Goodell may indeed be a buffoon, but the fact is, Brady cheated and then lied about it when being investigated with insane explanations, and for that he probably deserves two games for each infraction. That's the core issue.

 

You again miss the point. The guilt phase is over, punishment has been handed down. If there is bias, Brady has a way to win his suit, especially in NY, as opposed to Minn.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

You again miss the point. The guilt phase is over, punishment has been handed down. If there is bias, Brady has a way to win his suit, especially in NY, as opposed to Minn.

I totally understand that. That is not what No Saint and I were really discussing imo. I can't speak for him. I was discussing the overall perception of goodell and the league and previous cases.

 

I know the guilt phase is over. I know exactly what they are arguing in court. I think Brady has about a 5% chance of winning based on about 10 separate articles I have read from both sides. I think there is a much, much greater chance of the NFL caving for no good reason than Brady actually winning in court. And I know every single one of the arguments Kessler is posing. That's not what I was talking about.

 

I was saying it doesn't matter about how independent or misguided or mischaracterizing or sloppy or foolish or whatever the NFL did wrong and there was plenty. It didn't alter the core results.

[Beerball]

if you have already made your judgements on both sides, and dont care about the case, why continue to return to the thread to make comments about people discussing the potential outcomes of the case?

because I find it interesting & it's what I'm paid so highly to do.

 

Why do you continue to return to the same thread day after day saying the same thing with full knowledge that you won't change a single persons opinion?

[JohnC]

 

Actually, Goodell is a law unto himself within the confines of the CBA. And every time he's been overruled, it's been strictly because he exceeded the confines of the CBA.

 

And that's a mark of Goodell's remarkable stupidity...because the CBA is awfully permissive. He can do nearly anything under the umbrella of "conduct detrimental."

Your comments reflect my view. He has extraordinary authority in disciplinary matters under the terms of the CBA. I don't dispute that view and never have disputed that view. But even with that wide lattitude he has a pattern of behavior that go outside the lines with his rulings, as evidenced by nullifying rulings of a number of arbitrators.

 

I believe on this contrived ball issue that he has turned into a fiasco he made a glaring misstep.

[4merper4mer]

 

While I do see Brady as more innocent than guilty (60-40 in favour of innocence based almost entirely on suspect science) the reference to innocence you speak of is how Brady, himself, views things, not I.

 

I simply summarized how I see how things unfolded.

 

Now, it's up to the judge to rule on pts 1 and 2.

If you think Brady is innocent based on suspect science and you were an OJ fan growing up then you must have thought since the glove didn't fit they must acquit.

 

There are 1000 things pointing in the direction of his guilt and Capri Sun Kraft hires a guy he already knows to make up some crap and that is the one and only thing you believe? That's simply pathetic. Pathetic. If you came around and realized OJ's guilt you should do so with Brady as well. Clearly they are two very different things and Brady didn't murder anyone, but equally clearly he is a liar.

 

Yet Goodell's power has been smacked down again and again in the past several off seasons, by Tags and by Federal judges.

Yay for you if your boy Brady gets to play. I don't actually care that much. To me the most important thing is that he has been exposed as a cheater and that his name should forever remain mud because he is a cheater. I'd feel the same way if Fred Jackson did something similar....I doubt he would. The 4 games will soon be forgotten whether he plays in them or not. If his cheating is allowed to be forgotten that is what would be bad for the league IMO.

 

Do I really have to point out that Wells's insistence that he was an independent investigator when he allowed the company paying for his report to edit it is ridiculous? Come on Kelly...look what you just wrote.

 

And then you go on to say that, despite reading the entire report, discussing its contents in its entorety with the investigators----and then "editing it", Pash would still not be able to figure out what questions to ask the witnesses?

 

This is some logical gymnastics.

 

 

Your statement presupposes that the NFL was out to get Brady. If the Ravens or Colts edited the report your "logic" would make more sense.

 

You again miss the point. The guilt phase is over, punishment has been handed down. If there is bias, Brady has a way to win his suit, especially in NY, as opposed to Minn.

 

 

If there is bias against Brady, then there be must be bias for someone else. Who would that be and how do they benefit?

[Pneumonic]

If you think Brady is innocent based on suspect science and you were an OJ fan growing up then you must have thought since the glove didn't fit they must acquit.

 

There are 1000 things pointing in the direction of his guilt and Capri Sun Kraft hires a guy he already knows to make up some crap and that is the one and only thing you believe? That's simply pathetic. Pathetic. If you came around and realized OJ's guilt you should do so with Brady as well. Clearly they are two very different things and Brady didn't murder anyone, but equally clearly he is a liar.

 

My opinion on the science was not at all influenced by anyone actually. I am a scientist and have been engineering around scientific principles for decades. In fact, my Pneumonic screen is a nickname that stuck with me as a result of my involvement in the development of “pneumonic” ventilator systems for use in the medical industry. Believe me when I say I have a extensive understanding of how gauges work ; people’s lives were at stake if the gauges used in my equipment failed to meet design spec.

 

So, yeah, I'm going to strongly favour science based evidence over the speculation and guesswork the NFL has put forth.

 

I would have loved to browse through the science in the OJ case but, alas, I was unable.

[thebandit27]

 

My opinion on the science was not at all influenced by anyone actually. I am a scientist and have been engineering around scientific principles for decades. In fact, my Pneumonic screen is a nickname that stuck with me as a result of my involvement in the development of pneumonic ventilator systems for use in the medical industry. Believe me when I say I have a extensive understanding of how gauges work ; peoples lives were at stake if the gauges used in my equipment failed to meet design spec.

 

So, yeah, I'm going to strongly favour science based evidence over the speculation and guesswork the NFL has put forth.

 

I would have loved to browse through the science in the OJ case but, alas, I was unable.

Seriously though: what football team do you cheer for?

[Pneumonic]

Seriously though: what football team do you cheer for?

 

Pre or post, OJ?

[thebandit27]

 

Pre or post, OJ?

Was that too complicated a question for a "scientist"?

[dave mcbride]

I agree with that completely. But without trying to bring politics into this, it's similar to say, a Senator that is making bonehead decisions, simultaneously with his or her opposition completely distorting those mistakes as if they are treasonous offenses. When the reality is likely that the Senator made some stupid mistakes and the opposition is even more disingenuous and political and just as wrong or more than the Senator.

The NFL may indeed be biased, Wells may indeed not be independent, Goodell may indeed be a buffoon, but the fact is, Brady cheated and then lied about it when being investigated with insane explanations, and for that he probably deserves two games for each infraction. That's the core issue.

Given what you now know about equipment infractions across all major team sports in the US, why do you think Brady deserves a suspension amounting to 12.5 percent of the season (forget the penalty for the coverup) when no league -- including the NFL!!! -- suspends players for anything close to that amount for similar infractions? That's an actual FACT, and that's why I always thought your argument in defense of the actual penalty was a bit half-baked -- the thinking of a prosecutorial mind (rather than a fair mind). Edited August 7, 2015 by dave mcbride

[JohnC]

Seriously though: what football team do you cheer for?

What does it matter what team he cheers for when it comes to discussing this subject? His thoughts on this issue are well thought out and well expressed. If you disagree with his position that is your prerogative. His position, and mine also, are clearly a minority view on this topic. But whether he is a Bills fan or Patriot fan or Giants fan it is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

I consider Brady to be one of the top qbs in the history of modern football. It has no bearing on the position (same as Pneumonic's) I have taken on this lighting rod issue. I fervently root for the Bills but my historical loyalties to the team has nothing to do with my take on this issue. The issues that Pneumonic has raised with how the commissioner has conducted himself in this matter are reasonable topics to discuss.