Ted Black out: Russ Brandon to head Sabres and Bills

[Kirby Jackson]

I guess we have to see what the position entails to really make judgement. It seems like it may meld sometime into a PS&E Overlord who oversees the new football stadium, possible sports network, Bills, and Sabres. Wouldnt be shocked to see a "president" of each the Bills and Sabres in the next 5 years.

 

 

I hope as a Sabres fan that they dont lose the engagement with fans. They asked us, we said Kevin Sylvester is awful, and they immediately stopped grooming him for the heir apparent to RJ and took him off the broadcasts. We hated the 3rd jersey, they turfed it. Ted Black met with Season Ticket holders before home games (I was selected this year for one). It was great, we were treated very well, he spoke about the organization and gave insight people dont typically get... he took questions and gave honest answers, Girgensons came in to thank us, gave away auto'd jerseys, they provided snax & beer, gave us visiting team's family tix as upgrades, etc... It has been great. Many people complained about concessions... now they are much more friendly and efficient (while it took me almost a whole quarter to get pizza logs made for me at a Bills game last year with no line).

 

On the flip side, I dont feel nearly as engaged as a Bills fan. Maybe a case of the Pegulas continuing to take over

That is the case with the sixers and Devils. Scott O'Neil is the overlord and then he has someone as the president (or CEO) of each team. That may very well be the case here. If it is look for Dave Wheat to be the Bills president and Bruce Popko to hold the same role for the Sabres.

 

In terms of the fan relations stuff that has been going on for years in other leagues. The Sabres had been behind the 8 ball by about a decade. To Black's credit he closed the gap some but they aren't doing anything innovative. You are never going to see that level of fan engagement in the NFL. It just isn't practical. Down here the ownership (Benson) has the NBA and NFL and they are run by the same people. The operation is different though much like you mentioned above.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[Lurker]

More revisionism. Marv was hired because Mr. Wilson was reeling after the Donahoe fiasco. He felt betrayed and needed someone he trusted implicitly.

 

 

Exactly. After Donahoe, Ralph wanted someone he trusted in the position. Marv owed his whole career to Ralph and also considered him a friend, so he accepted the GM job even though he knew he wasn't qualified for it.

 

Marv was always a caretaker whose major responsibility was to reconnect Ralph to the team, with everything else being incidental...

[C.Biscuit97]

Brandon needs to let other people eat!!! Pegula is cheap! He just wants to pay one guy for 2 jobs! Cheap!

 

It's laughable the hate Brandon got. He is very good at his job and has been one of the best assets the a bills have had. We're lucky to have him (now hook me up with a job Russ!)

[BADOLBILZ]

He had some bad people running football ops at different periods - no doubt. That is the only on field area that he was ever responsible for. It did not go well.

 

Was Marrone bad? His team hit, played hard and had a better record than anyone in over a decade. In addition they improved. He was a pretty good football coach and a lousy human being.

 

It has NOTHING to do with consulting with the owner. Consulting and deferring are not the same. RB (and Marv) deferred all football related decisions. Ultimately neither was responsible for any particular player (good or bad). What Russ was responsible for was the people that added those players to the roster. Marv really wasn't responsible for anything.

 

Whaley makes football decisions by consulting the scouting staff. That's the same way that Nix, Modrak (college)/Guy (pro) and Donahoe before them did it. I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at but that's the way that it has worked at OBD for the last 15 years.

 

 

So when they cut Fred Jackson......Terry Pegula will find out about it on the ESPN bottom line?

 

The point I am getting at is with regard to important decisions.....not which UDFA's to pursue.

 

And the Bills have gone on record numerous times that those are made by consensus of GM, coaches and ownership.

 

You left two of those 3 elements out.

 

Something tells me the scouts weren't consulted too much wrt to trading Lynch and Peters...for instance.

[BADOLBILZ]

More revisionism. Marv was hired because Mr. Wilson was reeling after the Donahoe fiasco. He felt betrayed and needed someone he trusted implicitly.

 

 

Hey it wasn't my take.

 

Kirby has been implying that Marv had no say whatsoever.

 

I tend to agree with your take and disagree with his.

 

I do actually believe that upon his landing in Buffalo, Marv played a big part in the Bills plan to re-enact "The Patriot Way".

 

That's when he signed about 15 complete garbage free agents...the star of which was the unforgettable Robert Royal....... in an attempt to replicate that magical synergy that the Pats *apparently* had found via dumpster diving for personnel.

 

Of course......it turned out that much of their early success was predicated on knowing the plays the other team was going to run.

 

That kind of cluelessness and utter disregard for the jimmy's and the joe's in favor of something much less tangible is SOOOOO Marv.

 

Modrak was a schlub but he was all about stacking talent at Pitt and Philly I find it really hard to believe he would be responsible for that hippy-esque gameplan.

 

For all the sleeping Marv did in meetings at least he was in the building.

 

Modrak wouldn't take the GM job because he didn't want to commit to it.

 

If everyone else gets excused for half-steppin' why is it that Modrak doesn't when he wouldn't leave his fishing hole in Jacksonville to even scout games?

 

There was a whole lotta' blame to go around so the attempting to narrow it down to him is real hindsight.

Edited July 29, 2015 by #BADOL

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

So when they cut Fred Jackson......Terry Pegula will find out about it on the ESPN bottom line?

 

The point I am getting at is with regard to important decisions.....not which UDFA's to pursue.

 

And the Bills have gone on record numerous times that those are made by consensus of GM, coaches and ownership.

 

You left two of those 3 elements out.

 

Something tells me the scouts weren't consulted too much wrt to trading Lynch and Peters...for instance.

I did my best to explain the corporate structure. The Bills have ALWAYS been collaborative. That doesn't mean that RB or Marv had a vote. The football people (scouting & coaching) made those decisions (right or wrong). If you have an issue with the football people (who haven't been good) by all means.

 

Hey it wasn't my take.

 

Kirby has been implying that Marv had no say whatsoever.

 

I tend to agree with your take and disagree with his.

 

I do actually believe that upon his landing in Buffalo, Marv played a big part in the Bills plan to re-enact "The Patriot Way".

 

For all the sleeping Marv did in meetings at least he was in the building.

 

 

In terms of Marv's role you can treat it as insinuation but in reality it is a fact. You can take my info any way that you want but it's the truth. Marv literally slept through the biggest draft meeting of the year.

[BADOLBILZ]

I did my best to explain the corporate structure. The Bills have ALWAYS been collaborative. That doesn't mean that RB or Marv had a vote. The football people (scouting & coaching) made those decisions (right or wrong). If you have an issue with the football people (who haven't been good) by all means.

In terms of Marv's role you can treat it as insinuation but in reality it is a fact. You can take my info any way that you want but it's the truth. Marv literally slept through the biggest draft meeting of the year.

 

 

 

Marv was completely out of football and he was hired just months before the draft....why on earth would it be a surprise to anyone that he would let the scouts pick the players they'd been researching since they arrived on campus?

 

Here is what we do know.........HE hired Dick Jauron.

 

They then set forth on a completely hair-brained personnel plan.

 

Let's sign a bunch of scrubs to try to replicate the Pats. Overpay if necessary.

 

But they gotta be under-sized.

 

And if they would prefer to play elsewhere.......then we will grant their wish even if it means getting zero in return and having to use our top picks just to replace them.

 

How much of it was Marv and Dicks awful plan and NOT the actual players that you want to blame the personnel department for?

 

Take a look at the actual players they drafted or found in UDFA during that era.

 

Not that bad......but when you start out with a mediocre team and then you not only incorrectly over-prioritize certain positions but also have to use your top picks to replace free agents you let go every year......despite a wealth of cap space........ you will have a hard time getting better.

 

Whitner, Lynch, Poz, McKelvin......pretty good players drafted to replace Milloy(Marv cut) McGahee(Marv trade) Fletcher(Marv let walk) and Clements (Marv let walk).

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

 

Marv was completely out of football and he was hired just months before the draft....why on earth would it be a surprise to anyone that he would let the scouts pick the players they'd been researching since they arrived on campus?

 

Here is what we do know.........HE hired Dick Jauron.

 

They then set forth on a completely hair-brained personnel plan.

 

Let's sign a bunch of scrubs to try to replicate the Pats. Overpay if necessary.

 

But they gotta be under-sized.

 

And if they would prefer to play elsewhere.......then we will grant their wish even if it means getting zero in return and having to use our top picks just to replace them.

 

How much of it was Marv and Dicks awful plan and NOT the actual players that you want to blame the personnel department for?

 

Take a look at the actual players they drafted or found in UDFA during that era.

 

Not that bad......but when you start out with a mediocre team and then you not only incorrectly over-prioritize certain positions but also have to use your top picks to replace free agents you let go every year......despite a wealth of cap space........ you will have a hard time getting better.

 

Whitner, Lynch, Poz, McKelvin......pretty good players drafted to replace Milloy(Marv cut) McGahee(Marv trade) Fletcher(Marv let walk) and Clements (Marv let walk).

The only place where I disagree is bolded. The 2006 draft was unspeakably bad and sunk this team for many, many years, just as we said it would. They actually traded away an early pick to select garbage players in this draft which was chock full of talent at key positions.

People will point to Kyle Williams in the 5th too, and that's ok. He WAS a great selection but it wasn't enough to cover the hole that they dug for the team and the fans in the first 4 rounds. It was just plain ugly and I still cannot understand this kind of idiocy 9 years later.

[BADOLBILZ]

The only place where I disagree is bolded. The 2006 draft was unspeakably bad and sunk this team for many, many years, just as we said it would. They actually traded away an early pick to select garbage players in this draft which was chock full of talent at key positions.

People will point to Kyle Williams in the 5th too, and that's ok. He WAS a great selection but it wasn't enough to cover the hole that they dug for the team and the fans in the first 4 rounds. It was just plain ugly and I still cannot understand this kind of idiocy 9 years later.

 

The problem was that those drafts were supposed to be foundation builders and instead they were not only using those picks on replacements for good players they should have been building WITH..... but also trying to build from the outside in.

 

When Nix came in he corrected that but his inability to pull the trigger at the right time on a QB has lead to a painfully slow 6 year re-build.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

When Nix came in he corrected that but his inability to pull the trigger at the right time on a QB has lead to a painfully slow 6 year re-build.

Agree with this. It was kind of odd that the Bills were picking a 1st round QB in a year where MAYBE 1 QB had a 1st round grade. You have to can't just draft a guy to be your franchise QB because you need one. You still have to do it at the right time and get the right player.

[JohnC]

Agree with this. It was kind of odd that the Bills were picking a 1st round QB in a year where MAYBE 1 QB had a 1st round grade. You have to can't just draft a guy to be your franchise QB because you need one. You still have to do it at the right time and get the right player.

I went along with the trade-up and forfeiture of a first round selection for this year for the supremely talented Watkins. In hindsight it would have been better to trade down, get an extra pick or so, and then select either Bridgewater or Carr. If that fanciful scenario would have played out there would be a more optimistic outlook on this upcoming season and its future.

 

In every training camp there is a surprising development. Sometimes a small and seemingly inconsequential acquisition turns out to be impactful. Don't sleep on Tyrod Taylor. Just saying!!!!!

Edited July 31, 2015 by JohnC

[Kirby Jackson]

I went along with the trade-up and forfeiture of a first round selection for this year for the supremely talented Watkins. In hindsight it would have been better to trade down, get an extra pick or so, and then select either Bridgewater or Carr. If that fanciful scenario would have played out there would be a more optimistic outlook on this upcoming season and its future.

 

In every training camp there is a surprising development. Sometimes a small and seemingly inconsequential acquisition turns out to be impactful. Don't sleep on Tyrod Taylor. Just saying!!!!!

I still have no issues with the Watkins trade because I think that he will be an elite WR. They went up and got a star; I will never be mad at that. It is when you go up and miss (Losman, McCargo) then it hurts you.

 

He's very interesting to me and the guy as of today that I am hoping wins the competition. I don't believe in the other 2. With that being said, if they win the job I will support them and hope to be wrong. The unknown of Tyrod to me is more appealing than what I know of with Cassel and EJ.

 

Originally, I thought that Cassel may be an okay fit. A vet that will make good decisions and not make a lot of mistakes. If the OTA's were any indication, that is not him at this point. Strangely, I think that with a motivated Orton this team is a legit Super Bowl contender (and he wasn't very good). If the Bills can get an Alex Smith level of QB play they are serious contenders. Tyrod seems like the most likely candidate to play at a "middle of the league" level.

 

p.s. sorry for going way off topic (especially considering there are 4,000 other threads discussing this).

Edited July 31, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[OCinBuffalo]

We've reached the point where we're now lauding RB for the Toronto series? I definitely feel like I've landed in Jonestown.

Every time I hear this I laugh. The Bills, and specifically Russ Brandon, raped Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment on that deal. That was a pure cash play, and we got the better end, far and away, which is why they extended it at first.

 

And, it acheived another stated, and obvious goal: Canadian ticket sales have now increased from 11% to 20%. It was merely one more tactic that suports Brandon's regionalization strategy. Why the F would anybody complain about a business guy doing a business guy deal, and that business deal working as designed?

 

However, and this is pure speculation on my part, but...try and find a hole in it, the Toronto series had a stealth objective as well.

 

You can see it based on the behavior of Jerry Jones. Prior to Pegula, Jerry Jones was the best indicator of whether something the Bills were doing was good for them, because it was bad for him, and he'd publicly complain. Why? Jerry Jones is overextended financially. It's gotten so bad, that Cowboys home games: aren't. And here. And here.

 

For Jones, everything now is about valuation. Wins and losses don't even matter. His debt to equity ratio is king. His equity has to be valued high enough, to prevent the banks he's borrowed from foreclosing on him. Therefore, in addition to crazy ticket prices, Jerry Jones requires 2 things:

1. Every other team in the NFL has to have a high enough appraised value, to make the Cowboys claims of their valuation feasbile to their creditors. If any team is sold for less than what Jerry Jones says is market price, he's in trouble.

2. Jerry Jones needs every NFL team to be making as much revenue as possible, therefore, more revenue goes to him when it is shared. All small market teams reduce the potential Cowboys revenue, and so he wants to either eliminate them, or, force them to increase their revenue significantly.

 

This is why Jerry Jones bitched when the Toronto deal was first signed. This is why he called Bon Jovi a "great husband and father". This is why Donald Trump got involved. All of it was to make sure that the Bills were: sold for a high price, and, either moved to Toronto to guarantee more revenue, or, owned by somebody who Jerry was sure would generate more revenue. That's why: the minute Pegula stepped up and said he'd pay top $ for the Bills, Jerry shut his mouth, and both Bon Jovi and Trump were left twisting in the wind. (Although I remain convinced that Trump was merely doing the NFL a favor by being a stalking horse, gaining forgiveness for his USFL sins, and gaining the option to buy a team in the future)

 

But, Jerry Jones was outfoxed by Russ Brandon long before this, with the Toronto series. Jones bitches about revenue sharing: the Bills go out and bring in a cash windfall. What can Jerry say? That was the stealth objective: counter Jones's narrative, and thereby, weaken his credibility with the other owners. Brandon was, and now is, able to snag Toronto revenue, while keeping the team in Buffalo. At the time it was the last thing Jones wanted.

 

This is all confirmed by the fact that Jones hasn't said a damn thing about the Bills since Pegula made his bid. As I said, this is all speculation, but, where am I going wrong/what's a more likely explanation?

Dude cares about the bottom line, not about whether a team wins or loses. That is a bad thing.

Not when your job, as stated, is to be the business guy. Tim Murray and Doug Whaley are, in both title and fact, responsible for Ws. Russ Brandon is responsible for $. Period. Again, why are we bitching about a guy outperforming expectation in his assigned role?

[May Day 10]

the STH from Ontario rose from 11% to 17%.

 

That equates to roughly 2,500 seats. How many were from Toronto? How many as a result of that great and authentic display of Bills football in the Skydome?

How many were due to the surging Canadian dollar and general high Canadian shopping activity here?

 

 

 

It was an effective cash grab. That is all it was. We can move on. We will see a lot more Canadians when the wins pile in.

[OCinBuffalo]

the STH from Ontario rose from 11% to 17%.

 

That equates to roughly 2,500 seats. How many were from Toronto? How many as a result of that great and authentic display of Bills football in the Skydome?

How many were due to the surging Canadian dollar and general high Canadian shopping activity here?

 

 

 

It was an effective cash grab. That is all it was. We can move on. We will see a lot more Canadians when the wins pile in.

My numbers are 11% to 20% as quoted by the team, and they represent all ticket sales in general, not just STH. You're asking for a quantitative, discreet set of data that neither of us have, and using its absence as an argument for your position? Try again. However, I bet Russ Brandon has that data.

 

Um, this is the current value of the Canadian Dollar, and it wasn't "high" for the last 2 years of games, at least, in Toronto, as shown in the graph. (I will always remember the pissant Canadian howling "The US is done" in the bathroom at the Bills game, in 2008. )

 

So, we've gone from the Toronto series being a total loser idea, created by a complete idiot....to an effective cash grab. And now it's time to move on? Interesting. Perhaps if you do a little more thinking, you can see beyond the cash, and realize that it wasn't the only objective.

[May Day 10]

at the same time the increase was happening, the Canadian dollar was strengthened. Is that not a factor at all? Only factor was that sham game?

 

 

 

 

edit:

Im not upset about it any more at all. At the center of it, it was perceived as cracking the door open to a huge market that had its eyes set on stealing our team. The game was symbolic of us losing the Bills. Now that it is gone, and the series is gone forever, it just doesnt matter.

 

 

I still disagree that it was an effective Regionalization tool. I have never met a Canadian fan who liked the series and/or was compelled to go to RWS because of it.

 

 

It earned the Bills some bucks. Its history. Im fine with it.

Edited July 31, 2015 by May Day 10

[Kirby Jackson]

at the same time the increase was happening, the Canadian dollar was strengthened. Is that not a factor at all? Only factor was that sham game?

 

 

 

 

edit:

Im not upset about it any more at all. At the center of it, it was perceived as cracking the door open to a huge market that had its eyes set on stealing our team. The game was symbolic of us losing the Bills. Now that it is gone, and the series is gone forever, it just doesnt matter.

 

 

I still disagree that it was an effective Regionalization tool. I have never met a Canadian fan who liked the series and/or was compelled to go to RWS because of it.

 

 

It earned the Bills some bucks. Its history. Im fine with it.

I'm not sure how you can take that stance when the data says the exact opposite?

[OCinBuffalo]

at the same time the increase was happening, the Canadian dollar was strengthened. Is that not a factor at all? Only factor was that sham game?

 

 

 

 

edit:

Im not upset about it any more at all. At the center of it, it was perceived as cracking the door open to a huge market that had its eyes set on stealing our team. The game was symbolic of us losing the Bills. Now that it is gone, and the series is gone forever, it just doesnt matter.

 

 

I still disagree that it was an effective Regionalization tool. I have never met a Canadian fan who liked the series and/or was compelled to go to RWS because of it.

 

 

It earned the Bills some bucks. Its history. Im fine with it.

Basic marketing rears its head: by your own admission, you never met a Canadian fan who was unaware of it. I bet you'd have been hard-pressed to find anyone in Ontario who was unaware of it. And awareness is marketing job #1.

 

Awareness, followed by supporting interest, and then asking for the sale, is how you increase revenue. This is community college level stuff.

 

Brandon, besieged as he was in 2008 with an elderly, way past his prime, owner, no clear vision for the team's future, potential chaos looming with his owner's death, and with many hostile team owners against, did something nobody expected, and won with it.

 

It doesn't matter whether any of us were angry with it, or are over it now. What matters is Russ Brandon did the team, and all of us as fans, a service despite great odds against. That needs to be acknowledged.

 

And now, it has been: he runs the Sabres too.

Edited July 31, 2015 by OCinBuffalo

[DrDawkinstein]

Basic marketing rears its head: by your own admission, you never met a Canadian fan who was unaware of it. I bet you'd have been hard-pressed to find anyone in Ontario who was unaware of it. And awareness is marketing job #1.

 

Awareness, followed by supporting interest, and then asking for the sale, is how you increase revenue. This is community college level stuff.

 

Brandon, besieged as he was in 2008 with an elderly, way past his prime, owner, no clear vision for the team's future, potential chaos looming with his owner's death, and with many hostile team owners against, did something nobody expected, and won with it.

 

It doesn't matter whether any of us were angry with it, or are over it now. What matters is Russ Brandon did the team, and all of us as fans, a service despite great odds against. That needs to be acknowledged.

 

And now, it has been: he runs the Sabres too.

 

But, but, but... Aaron Maybin!

[May Day 10]

huh? Aaron Maybin?

 

 

Anyways, Im wrong. Didnt attend community college. 100% of the 9% of Canadian Season Ticket holders were directly thanks to the Toronto games. No other factors were necessary or applicable.