Pneumonic Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Imagine that... Brady refuses to cooperate fully and provide evidence (to prove his guilt or innocence), then states that the report has no evidence. You really don't see what's wrong with that? Short of getting a video of Brady deflating balls, what would you say is evidence?? The investigation has on record 2 team employees talking to each other, one saying Brady told me he's unhappy with the balls, the other saying he'll take care it if Tom gets him some merchandise. One actually calling himself the deflater. And that's not evidence that something was going on? Or that Brady was not in some fashion aware that something was going on? ...not to mention the fact that ALL league employees and players are required of cooperate FULLY with all league investigations. So, I ask, what would you require as proof of cheating here by the team or Brady? To take it further, the league had similar proof (texts) in the Browns scandal and levied punishment. Do you also think the Browns got railroaded with a lack of evidence? I can't comment on anything since I have not seen the counter arguments involved. All I can base anything on at this time is a report that amounts to nothing more than circumstantial evidence, culled from an investigation that appears to be chalk full of procedural errors. As for evidence, I'd like to see more than just a bunch of insinuations that Brady knew of guys who deflated footballs which, best as I can determine, isn't illegal. You mean except for the fact that it's not one side of the story? The information comes from Brady's side of the story, not the opposition? The reason Wells knows that Brady was lying and knows McNally, outside of the fact that's it's blatantly obvious, is that both McNally and Jastremski flat said he did in the interviews. You're digger yourself a deeper hole. Are you suggesting that ALL of the relevant info on this matter has been released? I beg to differ.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 I can't comment on anything since I have not seen the counter arguments involved. All I can base anything on at this time is a report that amounts to nothing more than circumstantial evidence, culled from an investigation that appears to be chalk full of procedural errors. As for evidence, I'd like to see more than just a bunch of insinuations that Brady knew of guys who deflated footballs which, best as I can determine, isn't illegal. Are you suggesting that ALL of the relevant info on this matter has been released? I beg to differ. Are you suggesting the Pats** have additional relevant info that they previously felt wasn't? GO BILLS!!!
Pneumonic Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 (edited) Are you suggesting the Pats** have additional relevant info that they previously felt wasn't? GO BILLS!!! I most certainly believe so as far as the Patriots go. Their deflategate summary clearly mentions, amongst other things, an unwillignness of the league to allow cross examination. But, keeping this focused on topic (of Brady only) I suspect clarity will be provided on a great many things once this goes to court. EDIT. BTW, so as to show my unbiased opinion, I also believe the league may have additiional info (such as new discovery) that they may have that the Wells report may not have touched upon. Edited May 16, 2015 by Pneumonic
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 I most certainly believe so as far as the Patriots go. Their deflategate summary clearly mentions, amongst other things, an unwillignness of the league to allow cross examination. But, keeping this focused on topic (of Brady only) I suspect clarity will be provided on a great many things once this goes to court. EDIT. BTW, so as to show my unbiased opinion, I also believe the league may have additiional info (such as new discovery) that they may have that the Wells report may not have touched upon. So you agree that they obstructed the investigatory process by deliberately withholding information relevant to that process. GO BILLS!!!
Pneumonic Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 So you agree that they obstructed the investigatory process by deliberately withholding information relevant to that process. GO BILLS!!! If one is to base things solely on the Wells report, it appears that way. Before passing final judgement, however, I think it is wise to hear the other side of the story.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 If one is to base things solely on the Wells report, it appears that way. Before passing final judgement, however, I think it is wise to hear the other side of the story. Why would they deliberately seek to obstruct the investigation by withholding information relevant to it? GO BILLS!!!
Dan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 I can't comment on anything since I have not seen the counter arguments involved. All I can base anything on at this time is a report that amounts to nothing more than circumstantial evidence, culled from an investigation that appears to be chalk full of procedural errors. As for evidence, I'd like to see more than just a bunch of insinuations that Brady knew of guys who deflated footballs which, best as I can determine, isn't illegal. Are you suggesting that ALL of the relevant info on this matter has been released? I beg to differ. So the report does not have enough evidence, you do not even know what would constitute enough evidence, all you're certain of is the report is fundamentally flawed and should be thrown out? A text message conversation specifically discussing these 2 individuals conversation with Brady and their deflating of balls with pins is as close to documented proof as you can get. I would wager its even more concrete evidence than an eye witness report to the conversation. So where is this circumstantial evidence? Its a circular argument to state they have no direct evidence from Brady, when Brady refused to provide the evidence that they requested.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 So the report does not have enough evidence, you do not even know what would constitute enough evidence, all you're certain of is the report is fundamentally flawed and should be thrown out? A text message conversation specifically discussing these 2 individuals conversation with Brady and their deflating of balls with pins is as close to documented proof as you can get. I would wager its even more concrete evidence than an eye witness report to the conversation. So where is this circumstantial evidence? Its a circular argument to state they have no direct evidence from Brady, when Brady refused to provide the evidence that they requested. This idea that circumstantial evidence isn't evidence is absurd. It is in every sense of the word. Especially when there are multiple examples. GO BILLS!!!
MattM Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 If one is to base things solely on the Wells report, it appears that way. Before passing final judgement, however, I think it is wise to hear the other side of the story. You mean the side that blamed it all on McNally's diet plan?
Dan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 This idea that circumstantial evidence isn't evidence is absurd. It is in every sense of the word. Especially when there are multiple examples. GO BILLS!!! Exactly. Apparently, we are now in a world where everything must be recorded on a cell phone camera to be true. Otherwise, we can't prove anything. And all you really have to do is just not cooperate because if you don't specifically say you did it...how can we really know? The 2 dudes, the referees, the investigators are all lying. Brady is the only one that will tell the truth... Well he won't because if he does then it might get misconstrued by the public. But, he's thinking the truth and we should believe him.
Pneumonic Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Why would they deliberately seek to obstruct the investigation by withholding information relevant to it? GO BILLS!!! That's one of the million $ questions it would seem.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Exactly. Apparently, we are now in a world where everything must be recorded on a cell phone camera to be true. Otherwise, we can't prove anything. And all you really have to do is just not cooperate because if you don't specifically say you did it...how can we really know? The 2 dudes, the referees, the investigators are all lying. Brady is the only one that will tell the truth... Well he won't because if he does then it might get misconstrued by the public. But, he's thinking the truth and we should believe him. Given their institutional history they haven't earned our benefit of the doubt. And if their feeble attempt to spin "the deflator" as a reference to McNally trying to lose weight is any indication, they don't have much to offer in the way of turning around that public perception. Given what he said in January and in view of the subsequent evidence that came out, Brady lied. That is nearly unanimous everywhere but Patriot**Nation. GO BILLS!!!
DC Tom Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 So you agree that they obstructed the investigatory process by deliberately withholding information relevant to that process. GO BILLS!!! Wait...back up a minute. They obstructed the investigatory process by deliberately withholding exculpatory information relevant to that process? Is that the argument now?
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 That's one of the million $ questions it would seem. Well, I wouldn't give a dollar for that question because it is rhetorical. If someone deliberately withholds information relevant to an investigation, it's because that information tends to incriminate those that withhold it. Again, the Pats** lose this round in trying to sway public opinion in their favor. GO BILLS!!!
Pneumonic Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 So the report does not have enough evidence, you do not even know what would constitute enough evidence, all you're certain of is the report is fundamentally flawed and should be thrown out? A text message conversation specifically discussing these 2 individuals conversation with Brady and their deflating of balls with pins is as close to documented proof as you can get. I would wager its even more concrete evidence than an eye witness report to the conversation. So where is this circumstantial evidence? Its a circular argument to state they have no direct evidence from Brady, when Brady refused to provide the evidence that they requested. Procedurally, it appears the NFL blew it. No amount of additional evidence would cure the NFL of this fundamental blunder. As for the text messages ..... it appears as though all we have as evidence is that the two guys were deflators of balls. I see no hard evidence that they were directed by Brady to deflate the balls below legal limits.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Wait...back up a minute. They obstructed the investigatory process by deliberately withholding exculpatory information relevant to that process? Is that the argument now? Apparently. GO BILLS!!!
Pneumonic Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 You mean the side that blamed it all on McNally's diet plan? True, I suppose, if you believe that is all ther is to the "diet" remark. Given their institutional history they haven't earned our benefit of the doubt. And if their feeble attempt to spin "the deflator" as a reference to McNally trying to lose weight is any indication, they don't have much to offer in the way of turning around that public perception. Given what he said in January and in view of the subsequent evidence that came out, Brady lied. That is nearly unanimous everywhere but Patriot**Nation. GO BILLS!!! We are talking about Brady here, not the team. Any "history" is team related; not Brady. Well, I wouldn't give a dollar for that question because it is rhetorical. If someone deliberately withholds information relevant to an investigation, it's because that information tends to incriminate those that withhold it. Again, the Pats** lose this round in trying to sway public opinion in their favor. GO BILLS!!! Again, depends on who you are talking about. The Pats gave their reason for not making McNally available for a further interview. As for Brady, I am waiting for additional clarity before deciding one way or another.
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 True, I suppose, if you believe that is all ther is to the "diet" remark. We are talking about Brady here, not the team. Any "history" is team related; not Brady. Well, Brady is part of that institution that's been implicated previously. But, OK. In that case Brady lied about knowing McNally and I have to wonder why. He loses any benefit of the doubt on that basis alone. Why did he lie about knowing McNally? And again, why did he choose to withhold relevant information to the investigation? GO BILLS!!!
Dan Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 Procedurally, it appears the NFL blew it. No amount of additional evidence would cure the NFL of this fundamental blunder. As for the text messages ..... it appears as though all we have as evidence is that the two guys were deflators of balls. I see no hard evidence that they were directed by Brady to deflate the balls below legal limits. So we have: McNally: Tom sucks… im going make that next ball a (expletive) balloon. Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done… Jastremski: I told him it was. He was right though… Jestremski: I checked some of the balls this morn… The refs (expletive) us… a few were at almost 16 [PSI] Jestremski: They didn’t check then after they put air in them McNally: (Expletive) tom… 16 is nothing… wait till next sunday Jestremski: Omg! Spaz I repeat.... "He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done" So Brady had no knowledge the situation? No knowledge of McNally?
K-9 Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 So we have: I repeat.... "He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done" So Brady had no knowledge the situation? No knowledge of McNally? Dan, you were right. Nothing short of Brady coming right out and admitting it will suffice as evidence for some people. It's absurd. I'm out. But good luck. GO BILLS!!!
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