Tired of Deflategate

[NoSaint]

We're talking about phone info. Wells/the NFL penalized him for not cooperating with the records request.

 

If Pneumonic was just talking about the interview, then fine, but that doesn't support his argument about Brady's reasons to withhold relevant phone records.

 

Obviously, it's easier to manipulate your interview answers than it is to manipulate your phone records. Even then, Brady only had to give up what he thought were non-incriminating ones, but he didn't even risk that.

well, wells didnt receive everything requested from everyone else as you imply, as gostkowski also declined to turn over phone records but that didnt result in penalty as wells let it go. Edited July 27, 2015 by NoSaint

[Mr. WEO]

We're talking about phone info. Wells/the NFL penalized him for not cooperating with the records request.

 

If Pneumonic was just talking about the interview, then fine, but that doesn't support his argument about Brady's reasons to withhold relevant phone records.

Obviously, it's easier to manipulate your interview answers than it is to manipulate your phone records. Even then, Brady only had to give up what he thought were non-incriminating ones, but he didn't even risk that.

 

 

You clearly said that Wells got everything from everyone else and nothing from Brady. You are a moving target.

 

And as NoSaint points out, why no penalty for another player who refused to cooperate?

[LeGOATski]

 

Brady spent the better part of a day answering every ? asked of him.

 

The issue presented itself when they asked for his private phone contents which, absent a subpoena, he was advised, understandably so, not to provide them with.

yes...I was just talking about why he should be advised not to give up anything. Inconsistencies.

 

You're original reasoning is that he and his wife are celebrities and wouldn't want to give up personal info. He never would've had to give that up unless you're saying he was discussing his personal life with the ball boys...so, is that what you're saying?

 

 

You clearly said that Wells got everything from everyone else and nothing from Brady. You are a moving target.

 

And as NoSaint points out, why no penalty for another player who refused to cooperate?

I said he got anything he could from everyone else. Different wording. We don't know the extent of what anyone provided.

 

He wanted Brady's relevant records because the circumstantial evidence he had pointed to Brady. Not Gostkowski. When you're investigation turns up evidence. You follow the evidence. When you come to a suspect and that person doesn't cooperate, you become suspicious. Why would they care about Gostkowski when the evidence wasn't leading to him?

[Kelly the Dog]

That other qbs try to get ones by that are illegal (Rodgers comment) implies they either don't believe they are at least 1 of 2 - accurately measured, or measured every week

 

That the 2 gauges aren't consistent

 

That in interviewing the refs they aren't handling it the same way across the board

 

That the NFL lets teams control the balls post inspection

 

That despite prior complaints and the balls disappearing it took an interception to re-check the balls

 

There's 5 decent examples of the NFL not indicating that 12.5 is some sacred holy number guarded by serious protocol

I'm sorry, bud, but I think you're wrong here.

 

1. There is no rule for the teams at what they give the balls to the refs to. None. They can give them to them at 18 or 8. It has no matter. The teams are not in any way whatsoever responsible for the PSI of the balls. So the idea that Rodgers puts them higher because he likes them that way has no bearing whatsoever on the protocol. It's always the same and it is uniform.

 

2. Anderson just did that as a precaution. He was being overly careful, just in case one of them malfunctioned or something. There is no set guage or anything. I doubt very much that two brands are .5 apart at all times. This was likely an aberration. But again had nothing to do with protocol. Officials are supposed to show up at games with one gauge to measure.

 

3. They are 99% handling it the same across the board. The Refs adjust it specifically to teams as a courtesy. They aren't told to by the league or the protocol. Wells found out one of them isn't courteous, he just follows his job.

 

4. The fact they let the teams control the balls after inspected is almost impossible not to, and they don't expect teams to cheat.

 

5. McNally has been working at Gillette forever. Anderson knows him. Sometimes McNally asks if he can take the balls to the field and the officials say okay, if he asks, and then an official will walk with him to the field. Then he delivers them to Brady. This time he didn't ask, he just took them. Anderson found out and yelled "He's not supposed to do that!" meaning he's not supposed to without an official okay or Anderson himself walking with him to the field. But it's minutes before a Championship Game. Anderson has other duties and again, is never ever going to think that McNally stopped off at a bathroom Anderson may not know exists and then let air out of all the balls.

[NoSaint]

He wanted Brady's relevant records because the circumstantial evidence he had pointed to Brady. Not Gostkowski. When you're investigation turns up evidence. You follow the evidence. When you come to a suspect and that person doesn't cooperate, you become suspicious. Why would they care about Gostkowski when the evidence wasn't leading to him?

then why did they ask, if nothing was leading to gostkowski?

 

and why is it a situation where a player has to guess if he is a target or not when they decline to provide them? if they decided they were only kind of suspicious, but not really suspicious brady shouldnt be punished for not turning over the phone records?

[Kelly the Dog]

What a screwed up process. How can an arbitrator be independent when a whole bunch of his bosses are advising him on penalties? It's ridiculous, and regardless of what the CBA allows Goodell to do, he should have known that his self-appointment as arbitrator would inevitably result in conflict-of-interest problems.

The same way a politician is independent when big donors ask him for favors.

As for speculation, Sal Paolantonio -- a good reporter -- pretty much said that it was a certainty that Irsay and Bisciotti had lobbied Goodell.

It doesn't matter whether it's 2 or 16. You realize that, right? The process has been corrupted.

Do you live in the real world?

Or in Neverlobbyland.

[Pneumonic]

yes...I was just talking about why he should be advised not to give up anything. Inconsistencies.

 

You're original reasoning is that he and his wife are celebrities and wouldn't want to give up personal info. He never would've had to give that up unless you're saying he was discussing his personal life with the ball boys...so, is that what you're saying?

 

Certainly Brady should be advised to fully co-operate with the investigation up the point where personal documentation (ie phone records) becomes involved. Then, absent a court order to provide such info, he should refrain from doing so. Celebrity or not this is simple common sense protocol.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

I've brought these up, including the Rodgers comments and preferences months ago. There are certain things that cannot even be discussed, NoSaint, without cocnluding you are a NE "apologist/defender"..

 

 

Wrong.

 

"Mr. Brady, the report set forth, he came to the interview, he answered every question I put to him. He did not refuse to answer any questions in terms of the back and forth between Mr. Brady and my team. He was totally cooperative."

Because you don't know what happened and you don't know the rules.

 

Rodgers NEVER said he altered the balls after they were measured and the teams have NO RESPONSIBILITY whatsoever for the PSI. None. Nada. Never. They can hand the balls to the Refs any PSI they want to.

 

The Brady quote is laughable. He answered every question "I don't know how it happened, I had absolutely nothing to do with it."

 

If you call that being 100% cooperative then go ahead. That is what pissed Wells and Vincent off so much.

[LeGOATski]

then why did they ask, if nothing was leading to gostkowski?

 

and why is it a situation where a player has to guess if he is a target or not when they decline to provide them? if they decided they were only kind of suspicious, but not really suspicious brady shouldnt be punished for not turning over the phone records?

Because they're trying to get all the information they can. If the other evidence pointed to Gostkowski in the same way it pointed to Brady, he'd probably get suspended as well for not cooperating. They simply didn't care about the kicker because of the evidence we've already seen, and they didn't want to waste their time and resources on him. Maybe this is just another part of the process for people to complain about, but so be it. This happens during criminal investigations, too. Suspects get ignored once the evidence stops pointing to them.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

You clearly said that Wells got everything from everyone else and nothing from Brady. You are a moving target.

 

And as NoSaint points out, why no penalty for another player who refused to cooperate?

Because there was no wrongdoing by anyone anywhere when it came to the kicking balls. Do you think anyone that was trying to be fair, on either side of the issue, under any circumstances, would think someone that wasn't accused of anything, where no wrongdoing occurred whatsoever, should be penalized for saying "No, I won't turn it over until you tell me what I did?"

then why did they ask, if nothing was leading to gostkowski?

 

and why is it a situation where a player has to guess if he is a target or not when they decline to provide them? if they decided they were only kind of suspicious, but not really suspicious brady shouldnt be punished for not turning over the phone records?

Because there was a separate issue that may have included a kicking ball that wasn't part of the 12 deflated balls. As soon as Wells looked into it he determined there was a totally logical explanation and there was absolutely no issue.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[NoSaint]

I'm sorry, bud, but I think you're wrong here.

 

1. There is no rule for the teams at what they give the balls to the refs to. None. They can give them to them at 18 or 8. It has no matter. The teams are not in any way whatsoever responsible for the PSI of the balls. So the idea that Rodgers puts them higher because he likes them that way has no bearing whatsoever on the protocol. It's always the same and it is uniform.

 

2. Anderson just did that as a precaution. He was being overly careful, just in case one of them malfunctioned or something. There is no set guage or anything. I doubt very much that two brands are .5 apart at all times. This was likely an aberration. But again had nothing to do with protocol. Officials are supposed to show up at games with one gauge to measure.

 

3. They are 99% handling it the same across the board. The Refs adjust it specifically to teams as a courtesy. They aren't told to by the league or the protocol. Wells found out one of them isn't courteous, he just follows his job.

 

4. The fact they let the teams control the balls after inspected is almost impossible not to, and they don't expect teams to cheat.

 

5. McNally has been working at Gillette forever. Anderson knows him. Sometimes McNally asks if he can take the balls to the field and the officials say okay, if he asks, and then an official will walk with him to the field. Then he delivers them to Brady. This time he didn't ask, he just took them. Anderson found out and yelled "He's not supposed to do that!" meaning he's not supposed to without an official okay or Anderson himself walking with him to the field. But it's minutes before a Championship Game. Anderson has other duties and again, is never ever going to think that McNally stopped off at a bathroom Anderson may not know exists and then let air out of all the balls.

ill volley back with regards to the strict protocol -- and as always, cause i respect your takes, not because i think you are being a nut (outside of #5, of course!)

 

1) my point wasnt that others should be in trouble. if they dont inspect, so be it. but that the players dont think they always inspect says something to me about the process. especially if you think the average qb can nail the exact PSI consistently. if rodgers puts them in high regularly, for instance, and thinks he is getting them back at that higher level -- is that rodgers imagination, or are the officials not quite as official as they claim in interviews?

 

2) why doesnt the nfl just have a standard gauge, if teams are known to play at the edge of the boundaries, and its thought to be important if they are a little high or low --- it only makes sense to have an official measuring tool thats uniform. its just another small piece.

 

3) again, why not have a protocol, if its thought to be important? and ill refer back to #1 as i dont think the officials were quite as official as they portray in their interviews with the league. if some dont always check, do you think they were rushing to share that?

 

4) it would be incredibly easy to have the official game balls under control of a league employee, if they think its a major advantage, or they were super serious about it.

 

5) i still dont get why you contort yourself to defend this one. i feel like its ok to say the league messed up in that they had a complaint, and suspicious behavior, and didnt act on it. you can still nail the patriots for being cheaters if you want at that point. i know ive called out both sides on issues, and it feels like you are just digging in your heels here for the sake of not wanting to concede anything.

[LeGOATski]

 

Certainly Brady should be advised to fully co-operate with the investigation up the point where personal documentation (ie phone records) becomes involved. Then, absent a court order to provide such info, he should refrain from doing so. Celebrity or not this is simple common sense protocol.

Ok, so you're going to ignore this position: "Afterall, he and his wife are seriously famous which means the last thing I imagine he would want to do is give his personal phone contents..."

 

That was your reason for not giving the info to Well/NFL, because there was a good chance it would be leaked. It's not a good reason in this case because he only had to give the info that he thought was relevant. You're obviously not sticking to that reason, so we can move on.

[dave mcbride]

Sal Paolantonio says he was wildly misquoted and misinterpreted. Worth a listen: http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/07/27/sal-paolantonio-defends-his-recent-comments-on-deflategate/ .

[K-9]

It doesn't matter whether it's 2 or 16. You realize that, right? The process has been corrupted.

 

So why exaggerate the point?

 

Still, I don't buy that two owners, both defeated by NE* in the playoffs and lobbying for a stiff penalty, have corrupted anything. Not sure how they could in the first place. They are free to make their feelings known to the commissioner.

 

Given how Goodell couldn't destroy evidence and sweep Spygate under the rug fast enough in favor of Kraft and the Pats* previously, I would be surprised if other owners don't get in his ear.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Edited July 27, 2015 by K-9

[NoSaint]

Ok, so you're going to ignore this position: "Afterall, he and his wife are seriously famous which means the last thing I imagine he would want to do is give his personal phone contents..."

 

That was your reason for not giving the info to Well/NFL, because there was a good chance it would be leaked. It's not a good reason in this case because he only had to give the info that he thought was relevant. You're obviously not sticking to that reason, so we can move on.

 

i know at the start, bradys lawyers said the leagues public claims didnt match the leagues request letter. i dont recall either side releasing the request, so i am not 100% sure where the argument here falls.

[Kelly the Dog]

ill volley back with regards to the strict protocol -- and as always, cause i respect your takes, not because i think you are being a nut (outside of #5, of course!)

 

1) my point wasnt that others should be in trouble. if they dont inspect, so be it. but that the players dont think they always inspect says something to me about the process. especially if you think the average qb can nail the exact PSI consistently. if rodgers puts them in high regularly, for instance, and thinks he is getting them back at that higher level -- is that rodgers imagination, or are the officials not quite as official as they claim in interviews?

 

2) why doesnt the nfl just have a standard gauge, if teams are known to play at the edge of the boundaries, and its thought to be important if they are a little high or low --- it only makes sense to have an official measuring tool thats uniform. its just another small piece.

 

3) again, why not have a protocol, if its thought to be important? and ill refer back to #1 as i dont think the officials were quite as official as they portray in their interviews with the league. if some dont always check, do you think they were rushing to share that?

 

4) it would be incredibly easy to have the official game balls under control of a league employee, if they think its a major advantage, or they were super serious about it.

 

5) i still dont get why you contort yourself to defend this one. i feel like its ok to say the league messed up in that they had a complaint, and suspicious behavior, and didnt act on it. you can still nail the patriots for being cheaters if you want at that point. i know ive called out both sides on issues, and it feels like you are just digging in your heels here for the sake of not wanting to concede anything.

You're looking for ways to say the NFL were buffoons. I'm trying to show how they follow the same protocol all the time, and they followed it that game, too. The only reason that Anderson left the officials room for ten minutes which allowed McNally to steal them was because he had extra duties because of the Championship game. So the fact this massive conspiracy didn't materialize in his head and it never occurred to him that McNally stole the balls to alter them in a bathroom makes much more sense to me that he should have figured it out and stopped the beginning of the game so he could go back and measure all the balls again. That's crazy talk IMO.

[NoSaint]

You're looking for ways to say the NFL were buffoons. I'm trying to show how they follow the same protocol all the time, and they followed it that game, too. The only reason that Anderson left the officials room for ten minutes which allowed McNally to steal them was because he had extra duties because of the Championship game. So the fact this massive conspiracy didn't materialize in his head and it never occurred to him that McNally stole the balls to alter them in a bathroom makes much more sense to me that he should have figured it out and stopped the beginning of the game so he could go back and measure all the balls again. That's crazy talk IMO.

given that the league received complaints, and that he saw issues with the handling.... its really that far of a stretch?

 

the league really shouldnt have said "hey walt, just FYI the colts are accusing this - you might want to keep an eye out"?

 

and i dont care if they were "buffoons," I was just saying it was a non-issue prior to this, that wasnt taken all that seriously - so a suspension is a big jump. especially when going with the argument that it isnt even brady himself that mishandled them.

Edited July 27, 2015 by NoSaint

[LeGOATski]

ill volley back with regards to the strict protocol -- and as always, cause i respect your takes, not because i think you are being a nut (outside of #5, of course!)

 

1) my point wasnt that others should be in trouble. if they dont inspect, so be it. but that the players dont think they always inspect says something to me about the process. especially if you think the average qb can nail the exact PSI consistently. if rodgers puts them in high regularly, for instance, and thinks he is getting them back at that higher level -- is that rodgers imagination, or are the officials not quite as official as they claim in interviews?

 

2) why doesnt the nfl just have a standard gauge, if teams are known to play at the edge of the boundaries, and its thought to be important if they are a little high or low --- it only makes sense to have an official measuring tool thats uniform. its just another small piece.

 

3) again, why not have a protocol, if its thought to be important? and ill refer back to #1 as i dont think the officials were quite as official as they portray in their interviews with the league. if some dont always check, do you think they were rushing to share that?

 

4) it would be incredibly easy to have the official game balls under control of a league employee, if they think its a major advantage, or they were super serious about it.

 

5) i still dont get why you contort yourself to defend this one. i feel like its ok to say the league messed up in that they had a complaint, and suspicious behavior, and didnt act on it. you can still nail the patriots for being cheaters if you want at that point. i know ive called out both sides on issues, and it feels like you are just digging in your heels here for the sake of not wanting to concede anything.

I'd be surprised if changes to the procedure don't come from this eventually.

 

Still, it doesn't justify the breaking of the rules. We've confirmed that the refs have their gauges and they're checking the balls. From there, we move on to determining the actions and involvement of the team personnel. The accuracy of the refs/gauges doesn't affect that, other than pushing the personnel to cheat because of their reputation for being inaccurate.

[Pneumonic]

Ok, so you're going to ignore this position: "Afterall, he and his wife are seriously famous which means the last thing I imagine he would want to do is give his personal phone contents..."

 

That was your reason for not giving the info to Well/NFL, because there was a good chance it would be leaked. It's not a good reason in this case because he only had to give the info that he thought was relevant. You're obviously not sticking to that reason, so we can move on.

 

it doens't matter the reason(s) for not divulging his personal info. He isn't required to do so unless court ordered. I could have said he didn't want to do so because he is hung like a budgie bird and there is proof on his phone to document it as so.

[dave mcbride]

So why exaggerate the point?

 

Still, I don't buy that two owners, both defeated by NE* in the playoffs and lobbying for a stiff penalty, have corrupted anything. Not sure how they could in the first place. They are free to make their feelings known to the commissioner.

 

Given how Goodell couldn't destroy evidence and sweep Spygate under the rug fast enough in favor of Kraft and the Pats* previously, I would be surprised if other owners don't get in his ear.

 

GO BOLLS!!!

It's a classic conflict-of-interest that would be fairly easy to drive home in court. That said, see my link above to the interview.