ProcessAccepted Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Here's hoping that they are correct and that a ruling will be made before Wednesday. Hopefully Brady finally realizes that the more he fights this the bigger the impact this will have on his legacy. My guess is he'll get 2 weeks and accept it under the guise that he is doing so under protest for the best interests of the team and the NFL. However the NFL needs to get the the place where it can handle cheating/behavorial issues for owners, refs and players without it becoming a soap opera.
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Agree, but I can't imagine any scenario where Brady would prefer to see his personal contents opened up to the NFL/Wells team for review and interpretation over a court system. He might as well simply give it to the National Enquirer. What do you mean? Wells wasn't going to look at everything. Only what Brady gave him. Wells/NFL couldn't legally look at all of Brady's records unless it was provided through legal process, which is what will happen if Brady sues.
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) I said there is zero percent chance he takes it to court where the whole issue is opened and Jastremski and McNally could be forced to testify under oath. I said he may take it to court on the basis of whether Goodell had authority to rule as he did with no chance that the real story is under question but I believe that has already been debunked and he wouldn't do well in court on that either. I also have always said it could be reduced to two games but that is if Goodell or the NFL caves, which I don't think they should do. I hope you agree with me on one thing: if Irsay (and Bisciotti) ill-advisedly offered "advice" to Goodell on the punishment, that's problematic for the league regardless of whether you think he's guilty as sin or not. In my opinion, it is majorly f'ed up for an allegedly impartial arbitrator's boss to push the arbitrator in such a way that it would benefit said boss's team at the expense of the accused. But Irsay is Irsay. Edited July 27, 2015 by dave mcbride
negativo Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I predict this ends with a fine and no suspension. Wells report too flimsy, and the NFL's case is full of holes.
Pneumonic Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 What do you mean? Wells wasn't going to look at everything. Only what Brady gave him. Wells/NFL couldn't legally look at all of Brady's records unless it was provided through legal process, which is what will happen if Brady sues. Surely you don't actually believe this? No matter what Brady relinquished to Wells, it would have not be enough information. Brady's team knew this.
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) some of you get stuck in this circular loop of non-productive discussion because you dont take the time to catch peoples takes before jumping in. ive said repeatedly that i think there was intentiaonal deflation. probably more than 90% of the people that want hang him higher for it. my point in replying to your post was towards the idea that the process is highly accurate and not just a bit of a "whatever happens happens" with regards to the ball pressure, not that they are innocent. but if theres not consistency in the process, not consistency in the gauges, then how does one argue that the (arbitrary) range is enforced with exacting measures? I'm not arguing that, so I guess the same can be said your lack of time dedicated to catching people's takes. I've always had the stance that once the ball boys were caught, the pressure details no longer matter. They were caught breaking the rules, so now the blame can't be put on inaccurate gauges. That's just a ploy by the defense team to place blame on someone else. People are being blinded by the smoke and mirrors. Edited July 27, 2015 by LeGOATski
NoSaint Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I'm not arguing that, so I guess the same can be said your lack of time dedicated to catching people's takes. I've always had the stance that once the ball boys were caught, the pressure details no longer matter. They were caught breaking the rules, so now the blame can't be put on inaccurate gauges. That's just a ploy by the defense team to place blame on someone else. People are being blinded by the smoke and mirrors. I'm still not blaming the gauges. Im pointing out the indifference of the nfl towards the exact measurements prior to this becoming a major punishment.
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Surely you don't actually believe this? No matter what Brady relinquished to Wells, it would have not be enough information. Brady's team knew this. It wouldn't have been enough for the doubting public, but if Brady had cooperated under these loose conditions, then the NFL couldn't have punished him for not cooperating. At least, the justification for that punishment would have been weaker. So, that's a bad move by Brady if that was his reason for not cooperating.
Pneumonic Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 It wouldn't have been enough for the doubting public, but if Brady had cooperated under these loose conditions, then the NFL couldn't have punished him for not cooperating. At least, the justification for that punishment would have been weaker. So, that's a bad move by Brady if that was his reason for not cooperating. Short of providing the entirety of his personal phone data,messages, there was no amount of co-operation that Brady could have exhibited that would have been enough. The Wells team had a built-in excuse for non co-operation. If they needed, or wanted, it.
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I'm still not blaming the gauges. Im pointing out the indifference of the nfl towards the exact measurements prior to this becoming a major punishment. OK...I'll bow out of this unproductive discussion. We both agree that the refs measure the balls with their gauges and send them to the field. After that, they shouldn't be tempered with. Any complaints about ball pressure would then fall solely on the refs and their gauges, which protects the players/teams from cheating accusations. Too bad Brady and the Pats didn't just follow the rules.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I'm not arguing that, so I guess the same can be said your lack of time dedicated to catching people's takes. I've always had the stance that once the ball boys were caught, the pressure details no longer matter. They were caught breaking the rules, so now the blame can't be put on inaccurate gauges. That's just a ploy by the defense team to place blame on someone else. People are being blinded by the smoke and mirrors. the 2 stooges admitted to it YES or NO? (I believe the correct answer is YES) So who put them up to it? Brady? Belicheck? someone out to sabotage the Pats**?
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I hope you agree with me on one thing: if Irsay (and Bisciotti) ill-advisedly offered "advice" to Goodell on the punishment, that's problematic for the league regardless of whether you think he's guilty as sin or not. In my opinion, it is majorly f'ed up for an allegedly impartial arbitrator's boss to push the arbitrator in such a way that it would benefit said boss's team at the expense of the accused. But Irsay is Irsay. I agree to an extent. If you and everyone else agrees that Kraft lobbying him is 1000x more the case and more problematic.
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Short of providing the entirety of his personal phone data,messages, there was no amount of co-operation that Brady could have exhibited that would have been enough. The Wells team had a built-in excuse for non co-operation. If they needed, or wanted, it. But the justification for that excuse would be so weak that it would be easily dismissable. Brady only did himself a disservice by not providing anything, even if he wasn't involved. He only made that excuse stronger... Everyone else was investigated under the same conditions, but you don't see the NFL using that excuse for anyone else.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 OK...I'll bow out of this unproductive discussion. Too bad Brady and the Pats didn't just follow the rules. oh they "follow" them. I think its more to how far they bend the rules or cross that fine line that maters. Injury updates - Beichick flaunt these (hourly). Can anyone tell me when Brady* wasn't on an injury list after 4 to 6 games with a minor boobo including a hangnail?
JohnC Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 I predict this ends with a fine and no suspension. Wells report too flimsy, and the NFL's case is full of holes. You are astute. Wells's conclusion is essentially we don't have quality proof that you are guilty but we are determining you are guilty because to us you are acting as if you are guilty. If this case is taken to court or to an arbitrator the league's position is not as strong as many want to believe.
NoSaint Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 OK...I'll bow out of this unproductive discussion. We both agree that the refs measure the balls with their gauges and send them to the field. After that, they shouldn't be tempered with. Any complaints about ball pressure would then fall solely on the refs and their gauges, which protects the players/teams from cheating accusations. Too bad Brady and the Pats didn't just follow the rules. That's all fine. But if venturing back into an argument that the NFL is highly standardized and takes the measurements seriously ill bring it up just the same. Someone pointed out it's such a big deal that they had 2 gauges! If the league doesn't have a standard process, standard gauges, or any real attention to detail... it's tough to come back claiming it's a SERIOUS infraction. A bit like nailing someone with jail time for going 60 in a 55 when your radar gun is +/- 5mph anyway and you don't really tend to enforce the rule strictly. Even if I know they did 60, there's an element of "seriously??" that would be my reaction to a significant punishment there.
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 the 2 stooges admitted to it YES or NO? (I believe the correct answer is YES) So who put them up to it? Brady? Belicheck? someone out to sabotage the Pats**? Once Brady sues, and ALL the records are subpoenaed from everyone who could've been possibly involved, then we could find out. I hope he sues, honestly. Just so we know. If Brady was fine with the pressure after the official check, then it makes sense for Bellichick to be the one who wanted them deflated. But, the texts between the ball boys don't seem in-line with that. It's possible that Brady is just the fall guy and Kraft/Bellichick would be happy that he's keeping the attention on himself. Maybe they actually encouraged him not to cooperate...the plot thickens....
4merper4mer Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 Just to follow up: my point isn't that he didn't violate the rules, but that it's unlikely that texts spelling out a nefarious plot to get balls below the legal limit exist. Him calling Jastremski isn't suspicious in and of itself, of course; one could easily argue that he's just trying to be brought up to speed on what's happening behind the bathroom door. How did the guy get the nickname "the deflator"?
Pneumonic Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 But the justification for that excuse would be so weak that it would be easily dismissable. Brady only did himself a disservice by not providing anything, even if he wasn't involved. He only made that excuse stronger... Everyone else was investigated under the same conditions, but you don't see the NFL using that excuse for anyone else. I am sure the Brady team could easily find justifiable means for them wanting to withhold sensitive personal info from an outfit that has proven itself to be incapable of keeping things secret. if the NFL was so concerned about non co-operation, why didn't they penalize, say, Gostowski, for not co-operating with Wells?
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Posted July 27, 2015 That's all fine. But if venturing back into an argument that the NFL is highly standardized and takes the measurements seriously ill bring it up just the same. Someone pointed out it's such a big deal that they had 2 gauges! If the league doesn't have a standard process, standard gauges, or any real attention to detail... it's tough to come back claiming it's a SERIOUS infraction. A bit like nailing someone with jail time for going 60 in a 55 when your radar gun is +/- 5mph anyway and you don't really tend to enforce the rule strictly. Even if I know they did 60, there's an element of "seriously??" that would be my reaction to a significant punishment there. There is no reason in the investigation to think that the NFL didn't have a pretty simple, pretty serious protocol and were not serious in the process. Name one. A standardized gauge? It's VERY simple. They measure the balls. End of story. There is nothing to believe they don't.
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