NoSaint Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 No, I'm just off the top of my head coming up with little tiny incriminating or possibly incriminating stuff that just adds to the overall scenario that he was not acting normal in the days right after it happened. If he called his agent directing after those calls to Jastremski each day at 7 am you would think that was likely not coincidence and they wouldn't be talking about the wedding. which, regardless of what they were talking about, would be pretty easy to be prejudicial with - while there could be 100 other logical reasons for him to talk to his coach or agent one of those mornings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 It's two games. The other two are for lying and obstructing. That was made pretty clear by Vincent. Â In the end I think Brady gets a monetary fine for not co-operating but one can hardly blame the guy for not doing so. Afterall, he and his wife are seriously famous which means the last thing I imagine he would want to do is give his personal phone contents to an organization that is notorious for its inability to prevent leaks and which, has proven time and again that it cannot, under any circumstance, guarantee that any info provided it will be kept confidential and secret. Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 He didn't because he is arrogant and thought I will just flat deny this and get away with it because I'm Tom Brady. Â If you had to bet, do you think he cheated to some degree? Are you pretty sure of it. Do you think McNally went to the bathroom to do anything other than deflate the balls? Here's what I think now: I think that he (and the team) functionally cheated, but I now believe that he didn't really know he was cheating. I doubt he knew anything about pressure level requirements but got frustrated with balls he thought were overinflated relative to what he liked and asked that they be "fixed." The rule was occasionally violated as a result ("occasionally" because presumably they weren't always deflated below 12.5), and therefore by logic he was involved in it. But I really don't think he thought he was committing a violation, and hence I doubt that there's really anything in the way of textual evidence from him that points to cheating. The QBs in 2006 won the right to control their own balls, and my guess is that he just assumed that you could tailor them to the way you prefer them and not think it's cheating. I for one strongly believe that Payton Manning does this to his balls too (notice his absolute silence on the matter). He was the one who took it to the league with Brady in the first place and his game would seem to be better with a less inflated ball given how he throws. Â In the end I think Brady gets a monetary fine for not co-operating but one can hardly blame the guy for not doing so. Afterall, he and his wife are seriously famous which means the last thing I imagine he would want to do is give his personal phone contents to an organization that is notorious for its inability to prevent leaks and which, has proven time and again that it cannot, under any circumstance, guarantee that any info provided it will be kept confidential and secret. Â Â That is a good point about why he might be unwilling to hand over his phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 which, regardless of what they were talking about, would be pretty easy to be prejudicial with - while there could be 100 other logical reasons for him to talk to his coach or agent one of those mornings.Coach for sure. I probably shouldn't have included BB but he probably doesn't call him every morning at 7 am when he is going to be at the stadium and talk to him. Plus I don't believe Belichick knew anything about it. But if he calls a couple different people, like his lawyer, it just adds to the conspiracy. Again, that was one little scenario of why he wouldn't give up his phone. Â Do you truly believe there is any good reason to call Jastremski for an hours worth of calls, four days in a row, each over 12 minutes, right after this happened, when he hadn't called him for six months? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 ....or, he didn't want to turn over the phone and incriminate Belichick, the convicted cheater and control freak who was well aware of the reduced fumble rate and how turnovers affect games. Â I just like to throw that out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Â In the end I think Brady gets a monetary fine for not co-operating but one can hardly blame the guy for not doing so. Afterall, he and his wife are seriously famous which means the last thing I imagine he would want to do is give his personal phone contents to an organization that is notorious for its inability to prevent leaks and which, has proven time and again that it cannot, under any circumstance, guarantee that any info provided it will be kept confidential and secret. Â Â It's the opposite. Â With Wells/NFL, all he had to do was give them the related material. Â If he sues and is subpoenaed, absolutely everything is on the table... ....or, he didn't want to turn over the phone and incriminate Belichick, the convicted cheater and control freak who was well aware of the reduced fumble rate and how turnovers affect games. Â I just like to throw that out there. Yep. If he sues, then everyone else is going down with the ship, not just the NFL/owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Here's what I think now: I think that he (and the team) functionally cheated, but I now believe that he didn't really know he was cheating. I doubt he knew anything about pressure level requirements but got frustrated with balls he thought were overinflated relative to what he liked and asked that they be "fixed." The rule was occasionally violated as a result ("occasionally" because presumably they weren't always deflated below 12.5), and therefore by logic he was involved in it. But I really don't think he thought he was committing a violation, and hence I doubt that there's really anything in the way of textual evidence from him that points to cheating. The QBs in 2006 won the right to control their own balls, and my guess is that he just assumed that you could tailor them to the way you prefer them and not think it's cheating. I for one strongly believe that Payton Manning does this to his balls too (notice his absolute silence on the matter). He was the one who took it to the league with Brady in the first place and his game would seem to be better with a less inflated ball given how he throws. That is a good point about why he might be unwilling to hand over his phone. Dave, that is the most ill-Informed post you have ever made here by a long shot. You clearly don't know what happened. Sorry. Brady already admitted knowing what the Psi measurements are. Every single game the Patriots, under his order, tell every single official they want every single one of their balls at exactly 12.5. That is indisputable. Belichick said it, too. That's what all the Patriots say. Brady decided it should be 12.5. Preparing their balls is an entirely different issue. Edited July 27, 2015 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Coach for sure. I probably shouldn't have included BB but he probably doesn't call him every morning at 7 am when he is going to be at the stadium and talk to him. Plus I don't believe Belichick knew anything about it. But if he calls a couple different people, like his lawyer, it just adds to the conspiracy. Again, that was one little scenario of why he wouldn't give up his phone. Â Do you truly believe there is any good reason to call Jastremski for an hours worth of calls, four days in a row, each over 12 minutes, right after this happened, when he hadn't called him for six months? Seriously? no, but im not trying to justify that he didnt do anything either. Â i think he did. i just think the process has been a bit ridiculous. some of that obviously toms fault too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Dave, that is the most ill-Informed post you have ever made here by a long shot. You clearly don't know what happened. Sorry. Brady already admitted knowing what the Psi measurements are. Every single game the Patriots, under his order, tell every single official they want every single one of their balls at exactly 12.5. That is indisputable. Belichick said it, too. That's what all the Patriots say. Brady decided it should be 12.5. Let me rephrase that. My guess is that Brady wasn't really thinking about numerical levels despite knowing what the legal range was. Rather, I honestly think it was a "feel" thing for him. If I'm right -- and of course I'm hardly sure about this -- he probably doesn't like balls that are highly inflated and if he has one, he wants it brought down to the range he likes. I truly don't believe he was ever asking about numerical levels. He wanted the right feel -- which in his mind was 12.5. But that's just a number; it's the lower limit that he presumably wanted regardless of what the number actually was. In the heat of the moment, though, no one's doing any real measuring. They're just scrambling to get it right for him 10 minutes before kickoff. If it comes in lower, he's not gonna know because he's not working a gauge himself. That's what I meant to say. Edited July 27, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Let me rephrase that. My guess is that Brady wasn't really thinking about numerical levels despite knowing what they were - I honestly think it was a "feel" thing for him. If I'm right - and of course I'm hardly sure about this -- he probably doesn't like balls that were highly inflated and wanted them brought down. I truly don't believe he was ever asking about levels. He wanted the right feel -- which in his mind was 12.5. In the heat of the moment, though, no one's doing any real measuring. They're just trying to get right 10 minutes before kickoff. That's what I meant to say. They already knew they had it right when the officials checked the pressure... Â Lol...this thread is a roller coaster ride... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) Roger, more than ANYONE else (yes, even Brady) wants Brady on the field for that opening TNF game. Â That game is a celebration that football is back! The kickoff of a new season. A chance for the SB champs to bask in the limelight one last time as SB champs. Â Roger only loses if the talk is why Brady is on the bench suspended for cheating. After his last season full of one debacle after another, the last thing he wants is for the season kickoff to be dominated by Brady is a cheater talk. Remember it was last season that it seemed like a foregone conclusion that Roger was done as commissioner. Â So by waiting, everyone wins, as I said before. Roger will rule right at the start of August. Brady sues. The legal process takes freaking forever to play out. The end result is that Brady does not miss a single game in 2015 or the playoffs, Roger looks like a tough guy who stands behind his discipline, Kraft takes one for the team and looks like a team player for the league, and Brady gets to play without ever missing a game AND be the hero for cheaters fans everywhere who want him to fight the man when Kraft did not. Â Book it. Edited July 27, 2015 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 They already knew they had it right when the officials checked the pressure... Â Lol...this thread is a roller coaster ride... I've never believed the NFL line about refs being exacting with regard to checking pressure before games. It's never been an issue before now, and no one ever cared. In fact, I always felt that line of argument was laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Let me rephrase that. My guess is that Brady wasn't really thinking about numerical levels despite knowing what the legal range was. Rather, I honestly think it was a "feel" thing for him. If I'm right -- and of course I'm hardly sure about this -- he probably doesn't like balls that are highly inflated and if he has one, he wants it brought down to the range he likes. I truly don't believe he was ever asking about numerical levels. He wanted the right feel -- which in his mind was 12.5. But that's just a number; it's the lower limit that he presumably wanted regardless of what the number actually was. In the heat of the moment, though, no one's doing any real measuring. They're just scrambling to get it right for him 10 minutes before kickoff. That's what I meant to say. Â The Patriots bring the balls to the Refs before the game. They hand 12 balls to the Refs and say, "Set them all at 12.5" under Brady's orders. The are often at different levels but usually pretty close. In the Championship Game in question for example, 9 or 10 were at exactly 12.5. 2-3 were a little over or under and Anderson adjusted them to exactly 12.5 himself. That happens the exact same way every game. Brady specifically orders every ball at exactly 12.5. The Patriots could come in with all of them at 7.5 and the exact same thing would happen. The refs would measure them all. If any one was not at exactly 12.5 they would make it 12.5. Â The lone exception Wells found out was one official who didn't care what the other team said and just set them all at 13.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Let me rephrase that. My guess is that Brady wasn't really thinking about numerical levels despite knowing what the legal range was. Rather, I honestly think it was a "feel" thing for him. If I'm right -- and of course I'm hardly sure about this -- he probably doesn't like balls that are highly inflated and if he has one, he wants it brought down to the range he likes. I truly don't believe he was ever asking about numerical levels. He wanted the right feel -- which in his mind was 12.5. But that's just a number; it's the lower limit that he presumably wanted regardless of what the number actually was. In the heat of the moment, though, no one's doing any real measuring. They're just scrambling to get it right for him 10 minutes before kickoff. If it comes in lower, he's not gonna know because he's not working a gauge himself. That's what I meant to say. Just to follow up: my point isn't that he didn't violate the rules, but that it's unlikely that texts spelling out a nefarious plot to get balls below the legal limit exist. Him calling Jastremski isn't suspicious in and of itself, of course; one could easily argue that he's just trying to be brought up to speed on what's happening behind the bathroom door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I've never believed the NFL line about refs being exacting with regard to checking pressure before games. It's never been an issue before now, and no one ever cared. In fact, I always felt that line of argument was laughable. You're dead wrong. They do it every game. The 12.5 - 13.5 measurement has been used since the 1940s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 I've never believed the NFL line about refs being exacting with regard to checking pressure before games. It's never been an issue before now, and no one ever cared. In fact, I always felt that line of argument was laughable. Believe what you want to believe, I guess. Â It was an issue before this. Just not a public one. Didn't Manning, Brady, Rodgers, etc. address the NFL about more control over ball conditions years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Not that they have been measuring every ball since then. But it's been a uniform rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 The Patriots bring the balls to the Refs before the game. They hand 12 balls to the Refs and say, "Set them all at 12.5" under Brady's orders. The are often at different levels but usually pretty close. In the Championship Game in question for example, 9 or 10 were at exactly 12.5. 2-3 were a little over or under and Anderson adjusted them to exactly 12.5 himself. That happens the exact same way every game. Brady specifically orders every ball at exactly 12.5. The Patriots could come in with all of them at 7.5 and the exact same thing would happen. The refs would measure them all. If any one was not at exactly 12.5 they would make it 12.5. Â The lone exception Wells found out was one official who didn't care what the other team said and just set them all at 13.0. See my post above. If you think the refs are exacting, I don't know what to say. My guess is that they just pump 'em up, give 'em a squeeze to see if they feel ok, and let the teams sort it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 Believe what you want to believe, I guess. It was an issue before this. Just not a public one. Didn't Manning, Brady, Rodgers, etc. address the NFL about more control over ball conditions years ago? That's not about air pressure. It's about rubbing the balls down before the game, or using balls that have already been worn in versus brand new balls right out of the box which still have a film to them. Nothing to do with air pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 (edited) You're dead wrong. They do it every game. The 12.5 - 13.5 measurement has been used since the 1940s. You can believe what you want to believe. No one is arguing that the standard didn't exist, so don't try to put words in my mouth. Clearly, if the texts are to believed, some of the balls teams end up with aren't to a qb's liking. Why is Rodgers inflating them after they've been handed to him? And why is Brady bitching about "overinflated" balls in the Jets game? Somehow, the balls were above the limit he liked by a lot (at least in his mind). Edited July 27, 2015 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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