Tired of Deflategate

[Dorkington]

1. Brady cheats which puts other teams at a disadvantage

2. He is caught and punished....appeals.

3. Goodell has to listen to him but cannot be allowed to listen to people harmed by his cheating.

 

That makes a lot of sense. Last time I checked "impartial" meant listening to both sides, not just one.

And this is a story with 32 sides. 31 sides agree that he's cheating. 1 side disagrees.

[dave mcbride]

1. Brady cheats which puts other teams at a disadvantage

2. He is caught and punished....appeals.

3. Goodell has to listen to him but cannot be allowed to listen to people harmed by his cheating.

 

That makes a lot of sense. Last time I checked "impartial" meant listening to both sides, not just one.

?? -- Brady was a party to the formal process. Random NFL owners who are the bosses of Goodell were not. Parties outside the process with the power to fire Goodell should be keeping their freaking mouths shut. They didn't, and THAT is a problem. But we shouldn't be surprised--Irsay is a joke (and a whiner to boot). It's pretty simple.

And this is a story with 32 sides. 31 sides agree that he's cheating. 1 side disagrees.

31 of 32 sides on TBD argue this. That's not how it's playing out elsewhere.

[NoSaint]

If he wins, it basically means there are no more rules. He was found to have cheated, the league penalized him for it, and the owners support the penalty... so if it gets overturned, the NFL might as well just throw out the rule book.

coooome on.

 

he could easily just have the penalty reduced. theres plenty of instances where penalties vary based on the infraction. you know, like all of them.

 

lets not pretend this is an obvious 4 game suspension.

 

additionally, there are plenty of examples where punishments are thrown out due to poor conduct by those leveling the penalty.

 

and of course, we shouldnt ignore that theres a whole lot more than just the suspension levied - for instance all the organizational penalties.

 

theres plenty of range of discussion thats fair and not "totally throwing out the rule book."

 

 

Nobody can say anything unless it is the Pats* who can say anything they want. Goodall has spoken to the offending party despite their unwillingness and obfuscation. How is it that he can't be allowed to speak with the offended party? Can all criminals now be allowed out of jail because their victims testified?

if the judge is working on the side as an employee of the victim, thats a bit different than simply hearing the victims testimony.

 

and why it was silly of the nfl not to bring in a third party for the appeal, after it was clear this was going to be potentially ugly.

[Kelly the Dog]

?? -- Brady was a party to the formal process. Random NFL owners who are the bosses of Goodell were not. Parties outside the process with the power to fire Goodell should be keeping their freaking mouths shut. They didn't, and THAT is a problem. But we shouldn't be surprised--Irsay is a joke (and a whiner to boot). It's pretty simple.

31 of 32 sides on TBD argue this. That's not how it's playing out elsewhere.

Everyone rational thinker in the free world including yourself that is not a Patriot apologist, if they had to choose, thinks Brady cheated to some degree, and if he cheated, he also blatantly lied about to investigators. He is solely responsible for the entire mess, including the entire investigation. All he had to do was say we like them a little softer and he would have got a slap on the wrist and no suspension whatsoever and no investigation and a lot of this long forgotten.

[NoSaint]

Everyone rational thinker in the free world including yourself that is not a Patriot apologist, if they had to choose, thinks Brady cheated to some degree, and if he cheated, he also blatantly lied about to investigators. He is solely responsible for the entire mess, including the entire investigation. All he had to do was say we like them a little softer and he would have got a slap on the wrist and no suspension whatsoever and no investigation and a lot of this long forgotten.

is that what you think the penalty shouldve been, had he said that? or just what you think it would have been?

[LeGOATski]

More on where this all might head: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonbelzer/2015/07/24/why-tom-brady-will-win-if-he-sues-roger-goodell-and-the-nfl-over-deflategate/

The NFL should call his bluff.

 

It wouldn't just be a moral victory. It sends a message to future cheaters.

[Dorkington]

coooome on.

 

he could easily just have the penalty reduced. theres plenty of instances where penalties vary based on the infraction. you know, like all of them.

 

lets not pretend this is an obvious 4 game suspension.

 

additionally, there are plenty of examples where punishments are thrown out due to poor conduct by those leveling the penalty.

 

and of course, we shouldnt ignore that theres a whole lot more than just the suspension levied - for instance all the organizational penalties.

 

theres plenty of range of discussion thats fair and not "totally throwing out the rule book."

 

if the judge is working on the side as an employee of the victim, thats a bit different than simply hearing the victims testimony.

 

and why it was silly of the nfl not to bring in a third party for the appeal, after it was clear this was going to be potentially ugly.

I wouldn't consider a minor reduction to be a Brady 'win', it sounds like they are trying to get the whole thing thrown out, which is why I think they shouldn't bother with rules if that's the case. If a player and a team are caught cheating multiple times, you'd think the league would drop the hammer in a big way, not kitty foot around like they are.

 

Of course I say all of this with the utmost bias. I'm generally tired of it. I want it resolved one way or another so I can be angry or happy, and then move on!

[Kelly the Dog]

coooome on.

he could easily just have the penalty reduced. theres plenty of instances where penalties vary based on the infraction. you know, like all of them.

lets not pretend this is an obvious 4 game suspension.

additionally, there are plenty of examples where punishments are thrown out due to poor conduct by those leveling the penalty.

and of course, we shouldnt ignore that theres a whole lot more than just the suspension levied - for instance all the organizational penalties.

theres plenty of range of discussion thats fair and not "totally throwing out the rule book."

 

if the judge is working on the side as an employee of the victim, thats a bit different than simply hearing the victims testimony.

and why it was silly of the nfl not to bring in a third party for the appeal, after it was clear this was going to be potentially ugly.

i think we can ignore the cases where Goodell or the NFL tried to enact penalties that were not in existence when the offense was made, which were eventually reduced or overturned. That is not the case here and without those, and which those have no bearing on this case whatsoever, it doesn't look so automatic that the suspensions are reduced.

 

If you want to take ALL suspensions and look at them, maybe less than 10% are reduced. There was very good reason to overturn the ones that they changed the rules. They didn't change the rules here.

[quinnearlysghost88]

Remember when Kraft met with Goodell, and then Kraft came out to the media and did a complete about-face? Came out saying he would take whatever punishment the league imparts. You have to assume Goodell eased Kraft's mind about the process moving forward. He probably said listen Brady's going to appeal, I'll be the one making the final decision and I'll reduce his punishment for fear that Brady and the NFLPA will sue the league, which would delay Brady's suspension until after it's resolved. I look like my hands were tied, Brady doesn't miss a game and we move on.

 

My guess: 0 game suspension and a nominal fine for tampering/not cooperating with the investigation.

[NoSaint]

I wouldn't consider a minor reduction to be a Brady 'win', it sounds like they are trying to get the whole thing thrown out, which is why I think they shouldn't bother with rules if that's the case. If a player and a team are caught cheating multiple times, you'd think the league would drop the hammer in a big way, not kitty foot around like they are.

 

Of course I say all of this with the utmost bias. I'm generally tired of it. I want it resolved one way or another so I can be angry or happy, and then move on!

well, the team got a major penalty.

 

im not sure its fair to hit brady, despite our distaste for him, as a repeat offender while he doesnt have a previous offense.

 

if the nfl gives him a major fine (say the previous fines for equipment issues, plus some esclation) and thats it (or a minor suspension) -- its if anything, more in line with the past penalties. which for someone wanting to preserve the rule book, youd think consistency would be a goal.

 

4 games would definitely be the upper upper edge of any comparable situation, if not above. i dont get how suddenly its become thought of as the plainly obvious penalty.

[Kelly the Dog]

is that what you think the penalty shouldve been, had he said that? or just what you think it would have been?

Well both. We never would have known the extent of the cheating and the conspiracy and the stealing of the balls.

 

I think that probably deserves two games. Maybe one. I don't think it helped him much at all, I don't believe the fumbling thing. I do think waiting until the officials weigh them, steal them, take them to a bathroom and systematically alter all of them is a much bigger ordeal than just taking one ball on the sideline in the middle of the game and sticking a needle into it for half a second and letting a little air out. It's just bigger. It also wasn't a one game affair.

[dave mcbride]

The NFL should call his bluff.

 

It wouldn't just be a moral victory. It sends a message to future cheaters.

My gut feeling is that there's nothing especially incriminating on Brady's phone EVEN IF he did it. More would have turned up on the phones of the other guys. If he does sue - and I think he will - then we'll know that his phone probably doesn't have anything too bad on it. Bear in mind that so much of this stuff happens orally and not via texts. I think that's gotten lost in all of this. People seem to think that his texts are some sort of holy grail. I think they'll be disappointed.

[Kelly the Dog]

well, the team got a major penalty.

im not sure its fair to hit brady, despite our distaste for him, as a repeat offender while he doesnt have a previous offense.

if the nfl gives him a major fine (say the previous fines for equipment issues, plus some esclation) and thats it (or a minor suspension) -- its if anything, more in line with the past penalties. which for someone wanting to preserve the rule book, youd think consistency would be a goal.

4 games would definitely be the upper upper edge of any comparable situation, if not above. i dont get how suddenly its become thought of as the plainly obvious penalty.

It's two games. The other two are for lying and obstructing. That was made pretty clear by Vincent.

[LeGOATski]

?? -- Brady was a party to the formal process. Random NFL owners who are the bosses of Goodell were not. Parties outside the process with the power to fire Goodell should be keeping their freaking mouths shut. They didn't, and THAT is a problem. But we shouldn't be surprised--Irsay is a joke (and a whiner to boot). It's pretty simple.

I wonder if Kraft said anything off-the-record to Goodell...

[Kelly the Dog]

My gut feeling is that there's nothing especially incriminating on Brady's phone EVEN IF he did it. More would have turned up on the phones of the other guys. If he does sue - and I think he will - then we'll know that his phone probably doesn't have anything too bad on it. Bear in mind that so much of this stuff happens orally and not via texts. I think that's gotten lost in all of this. People seem to think that his texts are some sort of holy grail. I think they'll be disappointed.

 

They wanted his emails and phone records too that had to do with this. One of the more incriminating elements against him are the four straight days and an hour worth of calls to Jastremski at 7 am right after it happened. Other calls on his phone or emails to other people or even them that they deleted could be way worse for Brady. Like if he called his lawyer or agent or Belichick or security right after those calls to Jastremski.

?? -- Brady was a party to the formal process. Random NFL owners who are the bosses of Goodell were not. Parties outside the process with the power to fire Goodell should be keeping their freaking mouths shut. They didn't, and THAT is a problem. But we shouldn't be surprised--Irsay is a joke (and a whiner to boot). It's pretty simple.

31 of 32 sides on TBD argue this. That's not how it's playing out elsewhere.

You don't think Kraft was the biggest lobbiest by about 1000x. He's directly involved. He should be answering formal questions about it when asked by investigators and not talking to the judge, right?

[dave mcbride]

They wanted his emails and phone records too that had to do with this. One of the more incriminating elements against him are the four straight days and an hour worth of calls to Jastremski at 7 am right after it happened. Other calls on his phone or emails to other people or even them that they deleted could be way worse for Brady. Like if he called his lawyer or agent or Belichick or security right after those calls to Jastremski.

I think you're just wrong, but we'll see. I always thought his refusal to hand over his phone was more of principled stance than most think. I can see him thinking, "F you -- I can't see any of your (the league's) internal texts, so I'm not freaking handing my phone over." That may not have been wise in retrospect, but at the time he didn't know that he'd be hit with a ridiculously long suspension or that Wells would come to the conclusion that he did.

[NoSaint]

They wanted his emails and phone records too that had to do with this. One of the more incriminating elements against him are the four straight days and an hour worth of calls to Jastremski at 7 am right after it happened. Other calls on his phone or emails to other people or even them that they deleted could be way worse for Brady. Like if he called his lawyer or agent or Belichick or security right after those calls to Jastremski.

 

ive been on board with some of your reasonings this morning, but im not buying the "if he called his agent or coach afterwards" as great footing for judging the guy

[dave mcbride]

I wonder if Kraft said anything off-the-record to Goodell...

I can't stand Thurston J. Kraft, but one has to admit that he's a lot brighter than Irsay. Irsay is a complete and utter joke.

[LeGOATski]

My gut feeling is that there's nothing especially incriminating on Brady's phone EVEN IF he did it. More would have turned up on the phones of the other guys. If he does sue - and I think he will - then we'll know that his phone probably doesn't have anything too bad on it. Bear in mind that so much of this stuff happens orally and not via texts. I think that's gotten lost in all of this. People seem to think that his texts are some sort of holy grail. I think they'll be disappointed.

Something will be somewhere.

 

Same thing goes for the owners. It's more likely that they make a phone call and not send a text.

 

The discovery process will take so long.

 

Brady could sue, play the whole season, then settle with the NFL, and retire. Basically, saying screw you to the league. I wouldn't put it past him.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think you're just wrong, but we'll see. I always thought his refusal to hand over his phone was more of principled stance than most think. I can see him thinking, "F you -- I can't see any of your (the league's) internal texts, so I'm not freaking handing my phone over." That may not have been wise in retrospect, but at the time he didn't know that he'd be hit with a ridiculously long suspension or that Wells would come to the conclusion that he did.

He didn't because he is arrogant and thought I will just flat deny this and get away with it because I'm Tom Brady.

 

If you had to bet, do you think he cheated to some degree? Are you pretty sure of it. Do you think McNally went to the bathroom to do anything other than deflate the balls?

ive been on board with some of your reasonings this morning, but im not buying the "if he called his agent or coach afterwards" as great footing for judging the guy

No, I'm just off the top of my head coming up with little tiny incriminating or possibly incriminating stuff that just adds to the overall scenario that he was not acting normal in the days right after it happened. If he called his agent directing after those calls to Jastremski each day at 7 am you would think that was likely not coincidence and they wouldn't be talking about the wedding.