Tired of Deflategate

[Doc]

Even if they do, Brady is gonna take them to court, and somehow win... so I'm working with the assumption that we'll be playing Brady in week 2. Hopefully we're good enough to take them down anyways.

Doubtful he even takes them to court, much less wins.

[YoloinOhio]

Even if they do, Brady is gonna take them to court, and somehow win... so I'm working with the assumption that we'll be playing Brady in week 2. Hopefully we're good enough to take them down anyways.

i personally don't think he will take them to court. I think it's a threat but that he'll ultimately decide to try to look like he's some marter and serve the suspension for the "good of the team" as to not be a distraction and have it continue to drag out, and allow the team to just move forward like Kraft did with the team punishment. Edited July 20, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[richNjoisy]

I continue to believe that Goodell will certainly not reduce the suspension to zero. Brady's supporters continue to insist this will happen but, other than repeating

all their arguments (which only Brady supporters believe), NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

 

Since everyone agrees this is not simply a matter of evidence but of public opinion, the longer this goes on, the better it is for the Brady camp - I mean, who isn't fed up with this whole process? But for people like me, my certainty that cheating took place and the integrity of the game is what matters (again, TO ME), time has not made

me any less passionate that Brady be punished.

 

Still, having said that,

 

- as long as WE (those that believe Brady cheated) don't forget.

- as long as WE (those that believe Brady cheated) boo him and yell, "Cheeeeeaaaaterrrr!" everytime we can

- as long as WE (those that believe Brady cheated) bring it up at every opportunity when anything "brady" comes up at the water cooler (where ever...)

 

....then, the League punishment is secondary. Brady will forever be a cheater everywhere except in New England. This has made me less concerned about whatever is announced this week and how things eventually turn out in terms of the League punishment.

 

Brady and new England cheated and his records and their records will be forever tainted.

 

-RnJ

[Matt in KC]

I think the loud public declaration that Brady will sue prior to the appeal being decided will have the opposite effect, if anything. A reduction to one or two games at this point would look like the NFL responded to the threat. I think most likely it will have no effect.

[dave mcbride]

I think people are whistling past the graveyard if they think that the reduction in Hardy's penalty to four games isn't having an effect on the league's decision process. To believe that it's irrelevant is to believe that a) the league isn't supremely image conscious and b) that all of the reports about the league's attempts to increase the size of its female fan base aren't true. Believing either of these things is delusional.

[IDBillzFan]

Brady*** related

 

Patriots RB Jonas Gray Talks Tom Brady Getting Special Treatment from Bill Belichick

New England Patriots running back Jonas Gray talks with The Fumble about getting in trouble with Bill Belichick, and Tom Brady

 

When did TMZ start covering the NFL to that extent?

[TheFunPolice]

I think this is what Kraft got for rolling over and playing nice. Roger waits until as late as possible into the summer to rule. That way, once Brady sues it will take forever for the case to go through the system and he won't end up missing any games, but certainly not the 1st one where the Patriots* will celebrate their title.

 

Everyone wins.

 

Kraft gets to avoid the embarrassment of his star QB being suspended for the nationally televised TNF game where they celebrate their title. Also, he gets to look humble for accepting punishment.

 

Brady gets to be the symbol of fighting back against the "haters" and the league for trying to bring down the Patriots*. He also doesn't end up missing a single game this season as the legal process churns on at a glacial pace.

 

Roger gets to stick to his guns and look tough. He never caved or showed favoritism toward New England*. IF the courts overturn it he will probably feel relieved.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Even if they do, Brady is gonna take them to court, and somehow win... so I'm working with the assumption that we'll be playing Brady in week 2. Hopefully we're good enough to take them down anyways.

IMO the usage of such media (texting) to communicate with the deflaters is actually very dumb. Word of mouth behind closed doors and the exchange of a small brown envelope is most efficient.

 

In court Brady*** will have his text messages subpoenaed.

If he is innocent as I mentioned why did Kraft GIVE up and cough up the Mil and draft picks?

also IMO anyone suing the NFL should be indefinitely suspended until all court proceedings have been completed.

[Rocky Landing]

IMO the usage of such media (texting) to communicate with the deflaters is actually very dumb. Word of mouth behind closed doors and the exchange of a small brown envelope is most efficient.

 

In court Brady*** will have his text messages subpoenaed.

If he is innocent as I mentioned why did Kraft GIVE up and cough up the Mil and draft picks?

also IMO anyone suing the NFL should be indefinitely suspended until all court proceedings have been completed.

There seems to be a generally accepted notion that his texts will be subpoenaed. But, in order for that to happen, the content of said texts would have to be relevant to the lawsuit. I don't see any way that would be the case.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

There seems to be a generally accepted notion that his texts will be subpoenaed. But, in order for that to happen, the content of said texts would have to be relevant to the lawsuit. I don't see any way that would be the case.

his refusal to offer them up months ago indicates that he is hiding something.

 

I still recall the first press conference where he was looking very nervous and not his normal narcissistic cocky self.

 

since the Wells report used the 2 stooges text messages as evidence one would assume all text messages are relevant.

[The Wiz]

There seems to be a generally accepted notion that his texts will be subpoenaed. But, in order for that to happen, the content of said texts would have to be relevant to the lawsuit. I don't see any way that would be the case.

 

 

his refusal to offer them up months ago indicates that he is hiding something.

 

I still recall the first press conference where he was looking very nervous and not his normal narcissistic cocky self.

 

since the Wells report used the 2 stooges text messages as evidence one would assume all text messages are relevant.

I believe it's already been said but they wouldn't be taking the suspension to court on the grounds of the investigation. They would be doing it on the grounds of the suspension and appeal process.

 

Brady's text messages/refusal to cooperate aren't going to be on trial. It will be the NFLPA vs the appeals process. As much as I would love hearing Brady needing to give up those text messages, they are likely to end up like the spygate videos.

[Rocky Landing]

his refusal to offer them up months ago indicates that he is hiding something.

 

I still recall the first press conference where he was looking very nervous and not his normal narcissistic cocky self.

 

since the Wells report used the 2 stooges text messages as evidence one would assume all text messages are relevant.

In a civil trial, you have to petition to subpoena something, and it has to be deemed relevant. And, it is Brady suing the NFL, not the other way around. On what grounds could the contents of something the NFL never saw be relevant to Brady's lawsuit? If the NFL can show that they thought the contents were relevant to the NFL's initial investigation, the best that the court could do is affirm that it was appropriate for the NFL to ask for them in the first place. But, that has nothing to do with the actual content.

[Doc]

In a civil trial, you have to petition to subpoena something, and it has to be deemed relevant. And, it is Brady suing the NFL, not the other way around. On what grounds could the contents of something the NFL never saw be relevant to Brady's lawsuit? If the NFL can show that they thought the contents were relevant to the NFL's initial investigation, the best that the court could do is affirm that it was appropriate for the NFL to ask for them in the first place. But, that has nothing to do with the actual content.

 

And then in that case, the suspension is upheld for Brady for refusing to cooperate by turning over his phone records.

[K-9]

In a civil trial, you have to petition to subpoena something, and it has to be deemed relevant. And, it is Brady suing the NFL, not the other way around. On what grounds could the contents of something the NFL never saw be relevant to Brady's lawsuit? If the NFL can show that they thought the contents were relevant to the NFL's initial investigation, the best that the court could do is affirm that it was appropriate for the NFL to ask for them in the first place. But, that has nothing to do with the actual content.

Agreed that the grounds for Brady's suit renders the investigation moot. But that also favors the league if Brady doesn't contest the findings that led to his suspension. It will simply be a question of whether Goodell overstepped his bounds and issued an unjust punishment. League commissioners have one directive above all others: maintain the integrity of the game. If Brady doesn't challenge the Wells findings, that is tantamount to accepting them, which cuts directly to a question of the integrity of the game. Goodell has more leeway in that single area than any other and its hard argue excessive punishment in that light.

 

Brady may indeed have to question the report before it's over.

 

And the Rice, Petersen, and Hardy cases are irrelevant, like "the science." Each had mitigating circumstances, not the least of which are having served season-long suspensions imposed by their own teams.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Rocky Landing]

 

And then in that case, the suspension is upheld for Brady for refusing to cooperate by turning over his phone records.

Exactly right, assuming that is relevant to the basis for his lawsuit.

 

Agreed that the grounds for Brady's suit renders the investigation moot. But that also favors the league if Brady doesn't contest the findings that led to his suspension. It will simply be a question of whether Goodell overstepped his bounds and issued an unjust punishment. League commissioners have one directive above all others: maintain the integrity of the game. If Brady doesn't challenge the Wells findings, that is tantamount to accepting them, which cuts directly to a question of the integrity of the game. Goodell has more leeway in that single area than any other and its hard argue excessive punishment in that light.

 

Brady may indeed have to question the report before it's over.

 

And the Rice, Petersen, and Hardy cases are irrelevant, like "the science." Each had mitigating circumstances, not the least of which are having served season-long suspensions imposed by their own teams.

 

GO BILLS!!!

If Brady does contest the findings of the Wells report, the civil trial would have to be based on the evidence the league had during their investigation. That does not include Brady's texts. It does include the fact that Brady refused to hand over the texts. But, that fact would have to stand on its own. The actual content would not be relevant to the conclusions reached by the league, and the Wells report.

[K-9]

Exactly right, assuming that is relevant to the basis for his lawsuit.

 

If Brady does contest the findings of the Wells report, the civil trial would have to be based on the evidence the league had during their investigation. That does not include Brady's texts. It does include the fact that Brady refused to hand over the texts. But, that fact would have to stand on its own. The actual content would not be relevant to the conclusions reached by the league, and the Wells report.

I disagree. Both Jastremski and McNally could be compelled to testify and their own phone records subpoenaed to support Wells' findings. If texts from Brady are found on Jastremski's phone, the league could also subpoena Brady's records for additional evidence. The contents from Jastremski's and McNally's record of communication served as a basis for Wells' findings and are very much relevant. Remember, in a civil action, Brady would be suing the league attacking the Wells report. The league would be well within its right to defend itself by soliciting new evidence in its favor.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[NoSaint]

I disagree. Both Jastremski and McNally could be compelled to testify and their own phone records subpoenaed to support Wells' findings. If texts from Brady are found on Jastremski's phone, the league could also subpoena Brady's records for additional evidence. The contents from Jastremski's and McNally's record of communication served as a basis for Wells' findings and are very much relevant. Remember, in a civil action, Brady would be suing the league attacking the Wells report. The league would be well within its right to defend itself by soliciting new evidence in its favor.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I've been hesitant to comment on the Brady being forced to turn over evidence angle as I'm not 100% sure, but generally I believe rocky is closer to correct than you, honestly (I don't recall any other appeals requiring guys to turn over potentially damning evidence that wasn't gathered previously- not to harp on the saints but I don't recall bank records or texts or anything else being required by the court, just what the team/players turned in to the league).

 

I am saying that as a gut reaction based on possibly shaky memory, not fact though- are you presenting the above as fact or as your opinion of how it should work?

Edited July 20, 2015 by NoSaint

[K-9]

I've been hesitant to comment on the Brady being forced to turn over evidence angle as I'm not 100% sure, but generally I believe rocky is closer to correct than you, honestly (I don't recall any other appeals requiring guys to turn over potentially damning evidence that wasn't gathered previously). I am saying that as a gut reaction not fact though- are you presenting the above as fact or as your opinion of how it should work?

I'm not talking about appeals. I'm talking about Brady bringing an actual civil action against the league based on the findings of the Wells report. The league would have every right to seek additional evidence in order to defend those findings. That may or may not include compelling Brady to cooperate, but it definitely includes compelling Jastremski and McNally to testify under oath along with their phone records as they served as a basis for Wells' conclusions. If Jastremski has records of communications with Brady that are relevant, Brady's own records could then be subpoenaed to corroborate.

 

That is opinion based on opinions of people experienced in civil litigation. All prospective legal action is based on opinion beforehand. Some more learned than others, but opinion none the less.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Rocky Landing]

I disagree. Both Jastremski and McNally could be compelled to testify and their own phone records subpoenaed to support Wells' findings. If texts from Brady are found on Jastremski's phone, the league could also subpoena Brady's records for additional evidence. The contents from Jastremski's and McNally's record of communication served as a basis for Wells' findings and are very much relevant. Remember, in a civil action, Brady would be suing the league attacking the Wells report. The league would be well within its right to defend itself by soliciting new evidence in its favor.

 

GO BILLS!!!

If Brady is contesting the conclusions of the Wells report, how could the league argue that it had reached the correct conclusion based on evidence that Wells didn't have?

 

And if Jastremsky, and McNally are called to testify, the defendant would only be allowed to ask questions that specifically pertained to the Wells report, the statements they made, and their relationship with that committee. The civil trial will have nothing to do with whether or not Brady is actually guilty. Brady won't be the one on trial. It will only pertain to the conclusions of the Well report based on the evidence that it had at the time-- assuming that Brady is contesting the validity of that report.

 

The only things that will be allowed in a civil are those things that pertain directly to the damages being claimed. If no one involved with creating the damages (Wells, and the NFL) ever saw the texts, how could they be relevant to those damages?

[JohnC]

I've been hesitant to comment on the Brady being forced to turn over evidence angle as I'm not 100% sure, but generally I believe rocky is closer to correct than you, honestly (I don't recall any other appeals requiring guys to turn over potentially damning evidence that wasn't gathered previously- not to harp on the saints but I don't recall bank records or texts or anything else being required by the court, just what the team/players turned in to the league).

 

I am saying that as a gut reaction based on possibly shaky memory, not fact though- are you presenting the above as fact or as your opinion of how it should work?

A ruling is probably going to happen this week or next. What is telling is that there hasn't been a ruling already. The reason to me is that Goodell is aware that after he makes his ruling, assuming there is going to be some sort of suspension, he will have to base his appeal judgment to issues that will follow, such as prior ball incidents and how they were handled compared to how this case is handled.

 

There are people arguing that the San Diego ball stickem incidents and the Atlanta ball warming cases have no relevancy. That is not only aninconsistent position to take but also perplexing position when addressing the inflategate situation. All these cases relate to tampering with the balls.

 

What the anti-Brady crowd doesn't understand is that the inflation issue is not the most significant issue when looking at the issue in its totality. It's about the league disciplinary office and how disciplinary decisions are made and applied.

 

Most often when outside authorities review Goodell's disciplinary decisions they are either thrown out or adjusted. Ultimately, I see the same thing happening here when it gets to a more competent and objective judicial source.

 

Goodell handled a case that should have been easily and quickly resolved. He could have immediately ruled that league officials and not team staffs would control the balss prior and during the games. Instead we have a year long saga and extended legal wrangling because the commissioner is inept and makes decisions based on his self-serving needs.