Tired of Deflategate

[JohnC]

I don't disagree that injunctive relief would only be sought and awarded if the follow up was court action. I also agree that there is a better than average chance that an application for an injunction would be successful.

 

Where I disagree with you is that every text message that Brady did not want to release was provided to Wells through some other means. Personally I find that inconceivable. If it is only the text messages that have been reported that were sought then Brady had no reason for wishing to withhold them. I still suspect there is something else there that he would rather did not come out and that is why I would be surprised if he took this to the courts.

As I responded to MattM in a prior post if Brady texted or communicated with his attorney for advice he wouldn't be required to give his texts to the investigating committee. I will go even further: If Brady communicated with others such as family and people he trusted for advice as to how to proceed I would agree with the position that he shouldn't turn over that type of communication.

Edited July 6, 2015 by JohnC

[eball]

The difference I see between the Rice/Bountygate examples and Deflategate is that RG did not rush to any judgment here. It would have been very easy (and following precedent) to come out with some sort of discipline immediately. Instead, RG actually did allow the process to play out and gave all parties the opportunity to present their cases, before the punishments were assessed. The Pats** and Kraft caved like a house of cards. Brady*'s only argument is his charm.

 

I don't disagree that RG handled Rice and Bountygate horribly. I believe this case is 180 degrees from those two.

[Wayne Cubed]

The problem I have with Goodell and his discplinary system is that there is no consistent system, except for drug issues. There were other cases of "ball" transgressions such as San Diego being penalized $25,000 for stickem on the balls and there was a minor fine against Atlanta for heating the balls in cold weather. Compare how the inflategate issue was handled to the other ball issues.

 

In my view Goodell is making determinations not on the facts on cases but more on how he is perceived. In the Ray Rice case he punished him with a two game suspension. Although there was a torrent of criticism by the public there was a reasonableness/consistency to it because it followed the pattern of punishment for similar domestic cases. After receiving the criticism he elevated the Rice's punishment claiming that he found out new information that he didn't have with his original punishment. The arbitrator determined that was a falsehood. The punishment went back to first two game suspension. Is that integrity in the process? If RG wanted to more severely punish domestic abusers he should have changed the policy and then enforce the new rule. That would have been the right and fair approach to take.

 

The New Orlean's bountygate saga is a demonstration of Goodell responding to a public outcry instead of objectively reviewing the issue. It was a ram-rod approach that affected the lives of players and coaches.Vilma stood up to Goodell and legally challenged him. He won.

 

As compared to most others I'm not overly bothered by the possible deflation of the ball. For me it is a minor transgression that could have been handled more competently. What I find most egregeous is that RG and his league office have a tremendous amount of authority that they are wielding in an erratic and unfair manner for self-promotion reasons instead of presiding over a reasonably fair disciplinary process.

 

There is no doubt that RG and the league have superior authority in these matters vis-a-vis the players. That is not the issue for me. That is what was negotiated. The issue is that RG has abused his authority for his own interest instead of conducting himself in a professional and competent manner.

 

As I have stated on a number of occasions the issue is more about the process than it is the miniscule transgressions. It is not surprising that when an aggrieved party is able to get his case to an outside authority it usually turns out against the RG ruling.

 

The link is a Washington Post column by Sally Jenkins. She seems to have a grasp on how RG has bungled this issue and how his actions are more self-serving than they are judicious.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/in-trying-to-restore-his-authority-goodell-undermined-his-credibility/2015/05/21/142c8d2c-ffd4-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html

 

 

What part of this specific process has been wrong?

 

A team, who has been caught previously cheating, was suspected of tampering with balls.

The league decided to test the balls to see if this were true.

The balls were found to be under.

Goodell then commissioned a outside authority to oversee an investigation.

Investigation comes back.

Goodell defers to Troy Vincent so that he's not part of the punishment process.

Punishment is handed out.

Brady appeals.

Goodell chooses to oversee appeal, which was written into the CBA.

 

Am I missing some part where Goodell completely screwed the pooch?

[K-9]

What part of this specific process has been wrong?

 

A team, who has been caught previously cheating, was suspected of tampering with balls.

The league decided to test the balls to see if this were true.

The balls were found to be under.

Goodell then commissioned a outside authority to oversee an investigation.

Investigation comes back.

Goodell defers to Troy Vincent so that he's not part of the punishment process.

Punishment is handed out.

Brady appeals.

Goodell chooses to oversee appeal, which was written into the CBA.

 

Am I missing some part where Goodell completely screwed the pooch?

That accurately sums it up. Nothing missing in a case with little to miss anyway.

 

For those comparing this to other minor "ball" offenses, I would ask what makes this case different?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thebandit27]

 

 

What part of this specific process has been wrong?

 

A team, who has been caught previously cheating, was suspected of tampering with balls.

The league decided to test the balls to see if this were true.

The balls were found to be under.

Goodell then commissioned a outside authority to oversee an investigation.

Investigation comes back.

Goodell defers to Troy Vincent so that he's not part of the punishment process.

Punishment is handed out.

Brady appeals.

Goodell chooses to oversee appeal, which was written into the CBA.

 

Am I missing some part where Goodell completely screwed the pooch?

 

I think that the biggest bone that one could reasonably pick would be some of the leaps in logic in the Wells Report (most specifically how he determined which needle was used by the referees).

 

That doesn't, however, explain away the major differences in pressures between the two sets of footballs (which, despite constant protesting, the presence of the Colts' footballs in a warmer environment for 10 minutes prior to testing doesn't account for mathematically). It also doesn't absolve Brady of his refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation in accordance with the league's rules.

 

Here's what needs to be remembered in the end:

 

- The person that handles the Pats* footballs for home games took the game balls from the field (which he isn't supposed to do), into a washroom with no cameras in it, claiming he had to use the urinal, when in fact that particular washroom doesn't have a urinal.

- This same person, who calls himself "The Deflator", remained in that room for what's been proven (via experimentation by multiple sources) to be enough time for any average person to use a needle to significantly deflate a dozen footballs by 2 psi or more.

- Those footballs were then found to be below the pressure mandated by league rules, and also significantly below the pressure of the other team's footballs, which is a factor that temperature differences cannot account for.

- The correspondence (texts) between the two people most directly responsible for handling those footballs heavily imply that Tom Brady had knowledge of their activities, and also heavily imply that Brady gave them merchandise and personal gifts. It is less strongly implied that these gifts were given as some type of quid pro quo compensation for preparing the footballs to Brady's liking.

- When asked to turn over his own correspondence--which he and his own lawyers had discretion to redact--Brady refused, which is against NFL rules during investigations, and also not within the precedent set forth by prior investigations.

 

As soon as someone addresses all of the above, I will have no problem changing my opinion on the situation.

Edited July 6, 2015 by thebandit27

[Wayne Cubed]

 

I think that the biggest bone that one could reasonably pick would be some of the leaps in logic in the Wells Report (most specifically how he determined which needle was used by the referees).

 

That doesn't, however, explain away the major differences in pressures between the two sets of footballs (which, despite constant protesting, the presence of the Colts' footballs in a warmer environment for 10 minutes prior to testing doesn't account for mathematically). It also doesn't absolve Brady of his refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation in accordance with the league's rules.

 

Here's what needs to be remembered in the end:

 

- The person that handles the Pats* footballs for home games took the game balls from the field (which he isn't supposed to do), into a washroom with no cameras in it, claiming he had to urinate, when in fact that particular washroom doesn't have a toilet or a urinal.

- This same person, who calls himself "The Deflator", remained in that room for what's been proven (via experimentation by multiple sources) to be enough time for any average person to use a needle to significantly deflate a dozen footballs by 2 psi or more.

- Those footballs were then found to be below the pressure mandated by league rules, and also significantly below the pressure of the other team's footballs, which is a factor that temperature differences cannot account for.

- The correspondence (texts) between the two people most directly responsible for handling those footballs heavily imply that Tom Brady had knowledge of their activities, and also heavily imply that Brady gave them merchandise and personal gifts. It is less strongly implied that these gifts were given as some type of quid pro quo compensation for preparing the footballs to Brady's liking.

- When asked to turn over his own correspondence--which he and his own lawyers had discretion to redact--Brady refused, which is against NFL rules during investigations, and also not within the precedent set forth by prior investigations.

 

As soon as someone addresses all of the above, I will have no problem changing my opinion on the situation.

 

And I get that someone could pick apart the report, there were definitely some issues.

 

JohnC's problem seems to be with Goodell. That the process was all wrong and unfair. I don't see any problem with the process at all. The fact that Brady refused to cooperate only adds to it.

[truth on hold]

Trump could be getting in on it now:

 

"People say, 'Oh, you don't like China.' No, I love them," Trump said during his speech. "But their leaders are much smarter than our leaders, and we can't sustain ourself with that. There's too much -- it's like -- it's like, take the New England Patriots and Tom Brady and have them play your high school football team. That's the difference between China's leaders and our leaders."

 

If you're keeping score at home, Trump is basically saying that Bill Belichick and Brady are smarter than everyone in the NFL in the same way that China's Communist President Xi Jinping is smarter than leaders in the United States.

 

Does that mean the Chinese are deflating footballs? Trump didn't say.

 

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25233714/watch-donald-trump-compares-tom-brady-patriots-to-china

Edited July 6, 2015 by JTSP

[MattM]

 

I think that the biggest bone that one could reasonably pick would be some of the leaps in logic in the Wells Report (most specifically how he determined which needle was used by the referees).

 

That doesn't, however, explain away the major differences in pressures between the two sets of footballs (which, despite constant protesting, the presence of the Colts' footballs in a warmer environment for 10 minutes prior to testing doesn't account for mathematically). It also doesn't absolve Brady of his refusal to fully cooperate with the investigation in accordance with the league's rules.

 

Here's what needs to be remembered in the end:

 

- The person that handles the Pats* footballs for home games took the game balls from the field (which he isn't supposed to do), into a washroom with no cameras in it, claiming he had to urinate, when in fact that particular washroom doesn't have a toilet or a urinal.

- This same person, who calls himself "The Deflator", remained in that room for what's been proven (via experimentation by multiple sources) to be enough time for any average person to use a needle to significantly deflate a dozen footballs by 2 psi or more.

- Those footballs were then found to be below the pressure mandated by league rules, and also significantly below the pressure of the other team's footballs, which is a factor that temperature differences cannot account for.

- The correspondence (texts) between the two people most directly responsible for handling those footballs heavily imply that Tom Brady had knowledge of their activities, and also heavily imply that Brady gave them merchandise and personal gifts. It is less strongly implied that these gifts were given as some type of quid pro quo compensation for preparing the footballs to Brady's liking.

- When asked to turn over his own correspondence--which he and his own lawyers had discretion to redact--Brady refused, which is against NFL rules during investigations, and also not within the precedent set forth by prior investigations.

 

As soon as someone addresses all of the above, I will have no problem changing my opinion on the situation.

I had not heard that there was no toilet of any kind in the washroom--do you have a link on that?

 

If that's the case, this one's even more open and shut than I'd previously thought, considering that McNally told investigators he needed to use that room to pee.

[4merper4mer]

Trump could be getting in on it now:

 

"People say, 'Oh, you don't like China.' No, I love them," Trump said during his speech. "But their leaders are much smarter than our leaders, and we can't sustain ourself with that. There's too much -- it's like -- it's like, take the New England Patriots and Tom Brady and have them play your high school football team. That's the difference between China's leaders and our leaders."

 

If you're keeping score at home, Trump is basically saying that Bill Belichick and Brady are smarter than everyone in the NFL in the same way that China's Communist President Xi Jinping is smarter than leaders in the United States.

 

Does that mean the Chinese are deflating footballs? Trump didn't say.

 

http://mweb.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25233714/watch-donald-trump-compares-tom-brady-patriots-to-china

That's not what he said. He said NE* is better than High school teams.

 

You know how I know that?

 

ake the New England Patriots and Tom Brady and have them play your high school football team

 

.

Edited July 6, 2015 by 4merper4mer

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

I had not heard that there was no toilet of any kind in the washroom--do you have a link on that?

 

If that's the case, this one's even more open and shut than I'd previously thought, considering that McNally told investigators he needed to use that room to pee.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-tom-bradys-deflate-gate-conspiracy-blew-soft-balls-and-damning-texts-329419

 

Not exactly no toilet but...

 

A quote from the article:

 

 

According to McNally, whom the NFL interviewed for its report on four occasions, he was headed out to the field with the footballs alone, which is against protocol, when he decided to use a bathroom at the end of the tunnel (a bathroom that he told officials he had used many times before). McNally told officials that he dropped the bag of balls to his left and then used a urinal to his right. That is when the officials told McNally there are no urinals in that bathroom.

Edited July 6, 2015 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[thebandit27]

http://www.newsweek.com/how-tom-bradys-deflate-gate-conspiracy-blew-soft-balls-and-damning-texts-329419

 

Not exactly no toilet but...

 

A quote from the article:

 

 

According to McNally, whom the NFL interviewed for its report on four occasions, he was headed out to the field with the footballs alone, which is against protocol, when he decided to use a bathroom at the end of the tunnel (a bathroom that he told officials he had used many times before). McNally told officials that he dropped the bag of balls to his left and then used a urinal to his right. That is when the officials told McNally there are no urinals in that bathroom.

 

Sorry to be late on this...yes, I erred in my statement of "no toilet". "No urinal" is correct.

 

My apologies for the inaccuracy, and thank you to the above poster for correcting me.

[GunnerBill]

As I responded to MattM in a prior post if Brady texted or communicated with his attorney for advice he wouldn't be required to give his texts to the investigating committee. I will go even further: If Brady communicated with others such as family and people he trusted for advice as to how to proceed I would agree with the position that he shouldn't turn over that type of communication.

 

Well I am no expert in the rules of disclosure in the American courts but in the UK communication with family and trusted friends would not be exempt from the procedural rules on disclosure.

 

 

[NoSaint]

The difference I see between the Rice/Bountygate examples and Deflategate is that RG did not rush to any judgment here. It would have been very easy (and following precedent) to come out with some sort of discipline immediately. Instead, RG actually did allow the process to play out and gave all parties the opportunity to present their cases, before the punishments were assessed. The Pats** and Kraft caved like a house of cards. Brady*'s only argument is his charm.

 

I don't disagree that RG handled Rice and Bountygate horribly. I believe this case is 180 degrees from those two.

Bounty gate was researched for months too.

[Kelly the Dog]

Sorry to be late on this...yes, I erred in my statement of "no toilet". "No urinal" is correct.

 

My apologies for the inaccuracy, and thank you to the above poster for correcting me.

McNally gave numerous different answers as to why he went into the bathroom and what he did there so you're allowed to change your answer, too. You actually have two more chances if you would like to take them.

[4merper4mer]

McNally gave numerous different answers as to why he went into the bathroom and what he did there so you're allowed to change your answer, too. You actually have two more chances if you would like to take them.

 

 

How many different answers can there be to "what did you do in the bathroom?".

 

I can come up with:

 

1. Pee

2. Poop

3. Deflated footballs.....I doubt he said this

4. Washed my hands

5. Blew my nose

6. Unmentionable and does not make sense while he was working

7. #4 combined with #1, #2, #5 or #6.

[eball]

Bounty gate was researched for months too.

 

How many things in Bountygate were overturned? We know Peyton served his suspension and Greggo did as well.

[NoSaint]

 

How many things in Bountygate were overturned? We know Peyton served his suspension and Greggo did as well.

Because the coaches didn't appeal at all- like Kraft. Nor did their GM. Every player won though I believe.

[thebandit27]

Because the coaches didn't appeal at all- like Kraft. Nor did their GM. Every player won though I believe.

 

 

True, although it's worth noting that Tagliabue didn't absolve the players of misconduct; he merely said that he felt the punishment should've been limited to fines instead of suspensions.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/11/tagliabue-vacates-all-player-discipline/

[JohnC]

That accurately sums it up. Nothing missing in a case with little to miss anyway.

 

For those comparing this to other minor "ball" offenses, I would ask what makes this case different?

 

GO BILLS!!!

How is the assumed level of ball tampering in New England different from the ball tampering in San Diego (stickem) and the heating of the balls during a game in cold weather by the Falcons? Compare how those cases were handled with the level of response with the deflategate issue. Where is the proportionality?

 

Do I believe that some air was taken out of the Pats's balls? I wouldn't be surprised that it did happen. Did it affect the game? No. The score in the Colt game was 45-7. In the first half with the "adjusted" balls the score was 17-7 in New England's favor. In the second half with some inflation of the balls the score favored New England by 28-0. The point being that there was no impact on the game by the supposedly questionable balls. It was well known that Tom Brady favored less inflated balls compared to Aaron Rodgers who preferred maximum inflated balls. Different qbs have different preferences not only regarding level of inflation but also relating to the texture of the balls. Some liked newer balls while others liked used balls. The point being that it is not unusual for qbs to have different preferences with their respective equipment staffs doing their best to accommodate their preferences.

 

Many people are making a big issue out of Brady's level of cooperation with the investigation, some would describe his behavior as being deceptive. There is another more benign manner in describing his response to the investigation. He was protecting his interest in this mushrooming situation. Tom Brady is not an inconsequential figure in the league. His attorney is a very accomplished attorney with a reputation for being aggressive. His attorney has represented other players against the league and has a record of defeating it. I am not going to criticize TB for aggressively pursuing his interest in this matter.

 

As I have stated very often this issue is more about the process than it is about the transgression. The category of infraction relating to balls has been handled demonstrably different in this case compared to the other cases.

[BillnutinHouston]

Do I believe that some air was taken out of the Pats's balls? I wouldn't be surprised that it did happen. Did it affect the game? No. The score in the Colt game was 45-7.

 

How many previous games did it affect? We may never know.