Green Lightning Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Do you know the meaning of the word conclusive? Even the writers of the report would admit that there is not much conclusive about their finding. If Goodell lowers the punishment would it be because the report replete with flaws is conclusive? I think not. If Brady, after Goodell makes his soon to be ruling, takes the league to court and quickly and decisivelyl wins his case it certainly won't be due to what you believe to be a conclusive finding. What you and many others fail to realize is that the deflategate issue is inconsequential compared to the flawed process in which it was examined by. When the adjudicating process is so tainted then the resulting ruling should be overturned. Like I said. His guilt is apparent to all save his moonie followers. People like you are half the trouble with this country right now. Nobody wants to take responsibility for anything, they'd rather blame the system or blame somebody else. Brady is a cheater. Why can't you accept that?
JohnC Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Like I said. His guilt is apparent to all save his moonie followers. People like you are half the trouble with this country right now. Nobody wants to take responsibility for anything, they'd rather blame the system or blame somebody else. Brady is a cheater. Why can't you accept that? What the hell are you talking about? You are allowing what should have been a trivial issue if handled competently by the league to become a ridiculously exaggerated issue that now pushes you into the realm of right wing foolishness. This issue has made some people go crazy and act out of proportion to its importance.
NoSaint Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Vilma took his case to court and won because it DIDN'T meet the requirements for discipline agreed on by the NFL and NFLPA (specifically, he argued that he was suspended for a compensation-based violation, which Goodell is not allowed to make.) The Rice ruling was in Rice's favor because his punishment DIDN'T meet the requirements for discipline agreed on by the NFL and NFLPA (specifically, he was punished twice for the same offense, which isn't allowed by the CBA.) Brady's punishment, on the other hand, meets the requirements for discipline agreed on by the NFL and NFLPA. Didn't vilma take his case to court, and the nfl once realizing its shoddy process and wanting to avoid the court process, agreed to go with tagliabue as an independent arbitrator for a new appeal and then he called it a sham? Which incidentally he also called out the nfl on this one. Soooooooo... Maybe that type of process could happen
Green Lightning Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 What the hell are you talking about? You are allowing what should have been a trivial issue if handled competently by the league to become a ridiculously exaggerated issue that now pushes you into the realm of right wing foolishness. This issue has made some people go crazy and act out of proportion to its importance. Well if it's so trivial why didn't your boy just fess up like a man and admit it? No, he lied, obfuscated and continues to do so. And last time I checked, taking responsibility for one's actions wasn't "right wing", it was just the right thing to do. Brady cheated and lied about it. All else is not important.
JohnC Posted July 3, 2015 Posted July 3, 2015 Well if it's so trivial why didn't your boy just fess up like a man and admit it? No, he lied, obfuscated and continues to do so. And last time I checked, taking responsibility for one's actions wasn't "right wing", it was just the right thing to do. Brady cheated and lied about it. All else is not important. This is your quote regarding me: "People like you are half the trouble with this country." That is an off the wall response that goes beyond the realm of football and the trivial significance of this issue. You make the assumption that you know exactly what happened in this episode. Despite your confidence you don't fully know what happened. How could you? Those involved in the investigation don't know for sure what exactly happened.
Green Lightning Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 This is your quote regarding me: "People like you are half the trouble with this country." That is an off the wall response that goes beyond the realm of football and the trivial significance of this issue. You make the assumption that you know exactly what happened in this episode. Despite your confidence you don't fully know what happened. How could you? Those involved in the investigation don't know for sure what exactly happened. Whatever. You're in denial and point to anything but the core issue, just like your hero Brady. He cheated, lied about it and you're only concerned with things that draw attention away from that fact. You may sputter and rant all you want about process and sidebar issues, but the rest of the nation has concluded the obvious. Brady cheated and lied and refuses to take responsibility for his actions. Worse yet, he used two underling employees to do his dirty work. Shameful. You sound like you will never admit the obvious. The rest of us know the deal. I don't know what else to tell you. I wish you well.
What a Tuel Posted July 4, 2015 Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) What the hell are you talking about? You are allowing what should have been a trivial issue if handled competently by the league to become a ridiculously exaggerated issue that now pushes you into the realm of right wing foolishness. This issue has made some people go crazy and act out of proportion to its importance. I think you need to go back and watch Brady's press conferences about this, and then determine who is handling it incompetently. Brady violated a rule, and everyone knows it. However you are falling into the Patriot organizations exhaustive efforts to exaggerate any aspect that will cast doubt on Brady's guilt. Take "the dieiting deflator" for instance (If you don't know, google it). How can you not see that they are throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks, and you are falling for what stuck, and ignoring all the other crap that didn't? Brady and the Patriots organization are being incompetent about this, and exaggerating the entire thing. If Brady would have come forward and stopped being a smug db, then the NFL wouldn't have had to go on this little escapade at all, and people like me would have shrugged it off as people do stupid crap (after some small penalty). Instead we are stuck in this ridiculousness because Brady is "out to prove his innocence" in a matter that everyone in their right mind knows he did. Edited July 4, 2015 by What a Tuel
dave mcbride Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Interesting about Troy Vincent's apparent ineligibility to decide on the length of the suspension, and even more interesting that he didn't deny making the decision. I've long thought that Vincent is not a rocket scientist: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/04/sizing-afc-east-top-offseason-moves/fH2BRlOah7gBC4J2BrC8mI/story.html# Edited July 5, 2015 by dave mcbride
JohnC Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Interesting about Troy Vincent's apparent ineligibility to decide on the length of the suspension, and even more interesting that he didn't deny making the decision. I've long thought that Vincent is not a rocket scientist: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/04/sizing-afc-east-top-offseason-moves/fH2BRlOah7gBC4J2BrC8mI/story.html# Whenever this inflategate issue is discussed it draws a lot of intense reaction. Putting aside the specifics of the case what is so very apparent is that the disciplinary process under Goodell lacks professionalism and credibility. It is not a surprise that when NFL disciplinary cases are taken to an outside authority the very erratic rulings are usually overturned. What is obvious to me as exemplified by the Rice and Vilma rulings is that the facts of the cases are not paramount to RG as much as the appearance of how he is perceived by the public. Looking back the New Orlean's bountygate rulings that had coaches and players suspended for a year were an astounding travesty of justice. It's my belief that if Goodell even lowers the punishment for Tom Brady he will seek an injunction and have the case reviewed in court. And then when the tainted disciplinary process is examined the ruling will be overturned. Edited July 5, 2015 by JohnC
GunnerBill Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 It's my belief that if Goodell even lowers the punishment for Tom Brady he will seek an injunction and have the case reviewed in court. And then when the tainted disciplinary process is examined the ruling will be overturned. Hmmmm. I think there is something in those text messages that he doesn't want getting out. If he seeks an injunction in court based on the process that is one thing, but if he seeks to have the ruling overturned in court (on process or any other grounds) that is something else and he will be subject to the usual disclosure rules of court and will need to provide what has been requested. I think it is unlikely myself. If the suspension is cut in half I think he releases a statement maintaining his innocence and expressing his displeasure with the process but that "for the good of the Patriots and to enable to team to focus on the season ahead and defending the Superbowl Championship I will reluctantly accept the ruling." Something to that effect.
Dan Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Hmmmm. I think there is something in those text messages that he doesn't want getting out. If he seeks an injunction in court based on the process that is one thing, but if he seeks to have the ruling overturned in court (on process or any other grounds) that is something else and he will be subject to the usual disclosure rules of court and will need to provide what has been requested. I think it is unlikely myself. If the suspension is cut in half I think he releases a statement maintaining his innocence and expressing his displeasure with the process but that "for the good of the Patriots and to enable to team to focus on the season ahead and defending the Superbowl Championship I will reluctantly accept the ruling." Something to that effect. Does anyone know... Can they recover deleted text messages from a phone? Because certainly, tommy boy has wiped his phone of all texts, call logs, emails, etc. Right? Do they have to subpoena the texts from the NSA databank in UT? Anyone with knowledge care to enlighten me?
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Does anyone know... Can they recover deleted text messages from a phone? Because certainly, tommy boy has wiped his phone of all texts, call logs, emails, etc. Right? Do they have to subpoena the texts from the NSA databank in UT? Anyone with knowledge care to enlighten me? I'm pretty sure your texts are never really deleted and certain individuals, if so inclined, could get them off your phone.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Interesting about Troy Vincent's apparent ineligibility to decide on the length of the suspension, and even more interesting that he didn't deny making the decision. I've long thought that Vincent is not a rocket scientist: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/04/sizing-afc-east-top-offseason-moves/fH2BRlOah7gBC4J2BrC8mI/story.html#Pretty hard to take the writer seriously about the criticism of spending by the NFL versus spending by the NFLPA on its players. The NFLPA has long been accused, and rightfully so, on not taking care of its retired players, many of whom live in extreme pain and poverty. Millions and millions spent on legal fees (take the Brady or AD case or any other single case out of this so we don't argue sides) could be better spent elsewhere. Millions and millions for the owners makes no difference in their lives whatsoever. Plus the legalities of Vincent ruling have been debunked most everywhere outside of New England.
Alaska Darin Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Does anyone know... Can they recover deleted text messages from a phone? Because certainly, tommy boy has wiped his phone of all texts, call logs, emails, etc. Right? Do they have to subpoena the texts from the NSA databank in UT? Anyone with knowledge care to enlighten me? Anything any one has ever sent can be retrieved. It'll be available on the device used or by going back to the carrier, as long as there is a legal reason for them to give it up. The only real caveat is time. When enough time passes, the likelihood of it still being around decreases correspondingly.
JohnC Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) Hmmmm. I think there is something in those text messages that he doesn't want getting out. If he seeks an injunction in court based on the process that is one thing, but if he seeks to have the ruling overturned in court (on process or any other grounds) that is something else and he will be subject to the usual disclosure rules of court and will need to provide what has been requested. I think it is unlikely myself. If the suspension is cut in half I think he releases a statement maintaining his innocence and expressing his displeasure with the process but that "for the good of the Patriots and to enable to team to focus on the season ahead and defending the Superbowl Championship I will reluctantly accept the ruling." Something to that effect. The text messages Brady sent were received by others who provided them to the Well investigators. If Brady and his legal team seek an injunction it will be followed up by a court action. There would be no basis for an injunction if there was no legal follow up. The reason why an injunction probably would be granted is because of the timing of the punitive action at the start of the season before a legal remedy can be pursued. Although I disagree with your belief that Brady would accept a reduced punishment it is very possible. Brady has hired an attorney who has a good record in challenging the rulings of Goodell. If Brady decides to take the legal route the process will be challenged as much as the facts will be. After witnessing what happened with Vilma and the Rice cases the manner in which disciplinary actions are investigated and determined is ripe with irregularities that the legal opposition can pounce on. Edited July 5, 2015 by JohnC
MattM Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 The text messages Brady sent were received by others who provided them to the Well investigators. If Brady and his legal team seek an injunction it will be followed up by a court action. There would be no basis for an injunction if there was no legal follow up. The reason why an injunction probably would be granted is because of the timing of the punitive action at the start of the season before a legal remedy can be pursued.Although I disagree with your belief that Brady would accept a reduced punishment it is very possible. Brady has hired an attorney who has a good record in challenging the rulings of Goodell. If Brady decides to take the legal route the process will be challenged as much as the facts will be. After witnessing what happened with Vilma and the Rice cases the manner in which disciplinary actions are investigated and determined is ripe with irregularities that the legal opposition can pounce on. Your first sentence is just plain wrong--if he texted or called someone (his agent or atty or coach, for ex) other than Tweedledum and Dumber, then Wells would most likely NOT have it. Based on the way Brady acted on his messages, it's pretty clear that that's factually the case. His fighting handing anything over rows strongly in that direction. I also think you and others here may be a bit confused about the legal remedies available here. Any appeal of a decision by Goodell would be on a very narrow basis, with a very high standard for Brady to meet to win. Brady can blame the union's negotiating away more disciplinary power for that.
JohnC Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 Your first sentence is just plain wrong--if he texted or called someone (his agent or atty or coach, for ex) other than Tweedledum and Dumber, then Wells would most likely NOT have it. Based on the way Brady acted on his messages, it's pretty clear that that's factually the case. His fighting handing anything over rows strongly in that direction. I also think you and others here may be a bit confused about the legal remedies available here. Any appeal of a decision by Goodell would be on a very narrow basis, with a very high standard for Brady to meet to win. Brady can blame the union's negotiating away more disciplinary power for that. If Brady texted his attorney then it certainly is privileged conversation. I agree with you that the legal basis for court action is limited. The courts usually defer to arbitration agreements between parties. The basis for an appeal to an outside legal authority would have more to do with the process agreed to by the union and the NFL. All along that has been the primary focus of my comments, more so than the transgression. In the cases that have made it to an outside authority it has not turned out well for him and his rulings. In the Rice case the arbitrator determined that Goodell was not accurate (lied) when he said he had new information justifying added punishment. The New Orleans bountygate and the Ray Rice saga demonstrate that Roger Goodell is prone to making disciplinary decisions based on how he is perceived rather than on the facts of the cases he is ruling on.
eball Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 JohnC, it's clear you have genuine distaste for Goodell, and I'm not saying I blame you, but I still have yet to see someone indicate exactly what Goodell's "obvious" error was in assessing Brady*'s suspension? That's the only thing Brady* could win with if he sues.
GunnerBill Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 The text messages Brady sent were received by others who provided them to the Well investigators. If Brady and his legal team seek an injunction it will be followed up by a court action. There would be no basis for an injunction if there was no legal follow up. The reason why an injunction probably would be granted is because of the timing of the punitive action at the start of the season before a legal remedy can be pursued. Although I disagree with your belief that Brady would accept a reduced punishment it is very possible. Brady has hired an attorney who has a good record in challenging the rulings of Goodell. If Brady decides to take the legal route the process will be challenged as much as the facts will be. After witnessing what happened with Vilma and the Rice cases the manner in which disciplinary actions are investigated and determined is ripe with irregularities that the legal opposition can pounce on. I don't disagree that injunctive relief would only be sought and awarded if the follow up was court action. I also agree that there is a better than average chance that an application for an injunction would be successful. Where I disagree with you is that every text message that Brady did not want to release was provided to Wells through some other means. Personally I find that inconceivable. If it is only the text messages that have been reported that were sought then Brady had no reason for wishing to withhold them. I still suspect there is something else there that he would rather did not come out and that is why I would be surprised if he took this to the courts.
JohnC Posted July 6, 2015 Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) JohnC, it's clear you have genuine distaste for Goodell, and I'm not saying I blame you, but I still have yet to see someone indicate exactly what Goodell's "obvious" error was in assessing Brady*'s suspension? That's the only thing Brady* could win with if he sues. The problem I have with Goodell and his discplinary system is that there is no consistent system, except for drug issues. There were other cases of "ball" transgressions such as San Diego being penalized $25,000 for stickem on the balls and there was a minor fine against Atlanta for heating the balls in cold weather. Compare how the inflategate issue was handled to the other ball issues. In my view Goodell is making determinations not on the facts on cases but more on how he is perceived. In the Ray Rice case he punished him with a two game suspension. Although there was a torrent of criticism by the public there was a reasonableness/consistency to it because it followed the pattern of punishment for similar domestic cases. After receiving the criticism he elevated the Rice's punishment claiming that he found out new information that he didn't have with his original punishment. The arbitrator determined that was a falsehood. The punishment went back to first two game suspension. Is that integrity in the process? If RG wanted to more severely punish domestic abusers he should have changed the policy and then enforce the new rule. That would have been the right and fair approach to take. The New Orlean's bountygate saga is a demonstration of Goodell responding to a public outcry instead of objectively reviewing the issue. It was a ram-rod approach that affected the lives of players and coaches.Vilma stood up to Goodell and legally challenged him. He won. As compared to most others I'm not overly bothered by the possible deflation of the ball. For me it is a minor transgression that could have been handled more competently. What I find most egregeous is that RG and his league office have a tremendous amount of authority that they are wielding in an erratic and unfair manner for self-promotion reasons instead of presiding over a reasonably fair disciplinary process. There is no doubt that RG and the league have superior authority in these matters vis-a-vis the players. That is not the issue for me. That is what was negotiated. The issue is that RG has abused his authority for his own interest instead of conducting himself in a professional and competent manner. As I have stated on a number of occasions the issue is more about the process than it is the miniscule transgressions. It is not surprising that when an aggrieved party is able to get his case to an outside authority it usually turns out against the RG ruling. The link is a Washington Post column by Sally Jenkins. She seems to have a grasp on how RG has bungled this issue and how his actions are more self-serving than they are judicious. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/in-trying-to-restore-his-authority-goodell-undermined-his-credibility/2015/05/21/142c8d2c-ffd4-11e4-805c-c3f407e5a9e9_story.html Edited July 6, 2015 by JohnC
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