Tired of Deflategate

[Kelly the Dog]

I don't get the "blown holes" thing Schefter is going on about. Two separate independant labs came to a conclusion. That doesn't even count the exhaustive interviews and the text messages.

They didn't at all blow holes in it. What they did was show that it was not impossible in theory for atmospheric conditions to show a small reduction in a ball, and less of one in a Colt ball. It didn't do 1/100th of the actual tests that Exponent did, did not even attempt to explain away what happened with all of them, nor anything to do with what Brady, Jastremski and McNally did.

Cossack's take is good here, I think: http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782428/what-happens-if-tom-brady-doesnt-get-appeal-result-he-desires. One of things I've occasionally mentioned is the one-sidedness of the management/player relationship in the NFL compared to other sports. The players really have very little power. The NFL is just different from, say, MLB.

Yeah that was linked and I read that earlier today. It's a good take IMO, too.

[K-9]

They didn't at all blow holes in it. What they did was show that it was not impossible in theory for atmospheric conditions to show a small reduction in a ball, and less of one in a Colt ball. It didn't do 1/100th of the actual tests that Exponent did, did not even attempt to explain away what happened with all of them, nor anything to do with what Brady, Jastremski and McNally did.

Yeah that was linked and I read that earlier today. It's a good take IMO, too.

Yep. When I read that link earlier, I thought we had come full circle on the issue and why I thought the SI article was weak in comparison. Goodell's authority was collectively bargained for and courts are reluctant to challenge that. Kessler is under the misguided notion that the precedent for Petersen set by Doty's decision is applicable here. It just isn't.

 

I wonder if the NFL people in that room today weren't pissed off by Kessler's presence and the clear attempt at intimidation his presence suggested.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Yep. When I read that link earlier, I thought we had come full circle on the issue and why I thought the SI article was weak in comparison. Goodell's authority was collectively bargained for and courts are reluctant to challenge that. Kessler is under the misguided notion that the precedent for Petersen set by Doty's decision is applicable here. It just isn't.

 

I wonder if the NFL people in that room today weren't pissed off by Kessler's presence and the clear attempt at intimidation his presence suggested.

 

GO BILLS!!!

As I said yesterday in a discussion with NoSaint about the Junior G case, I think these people at this level know how the world works. I think every one of the NFL lawyers knows that Kessler is going to lie through his teeth, distort the law and the rules, accuse the NFL of premeditated murder and collusion, threaten to take down the league and make them love him for it. But it's all nonsense.

[DC Tom]

Cossack's take is good here, I think: http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782428/what-happens-if-tom-brady-doesnt-get-appeal-result-he-desires. One of things I've occasionally mentioned is the one-sidedness of the management/player relationship in the NFL compared to other sports. The players really have very little power. The NFL is just different from, say, MLB.

It really is a bad disciplinary system, made immeasurably worse for being the responsibility of a hydrocephalic monkey like Goodell. But let's list all the people the players have to blame for it:

 

The NFLPA.

 

That's about it. The players get little sympathy from me; they were screwed by their own union.

[Kelly the Dog]

It really is a bad disciplinary system, made immeasurably worse for being the responsibility of a hydrocephalic monkey like Goodell. But let's list all the people the players have to blame for it:

 

The NFLPA.

 

That's about it. The players get little sympathy from me; they were screwed by their own union.

Yep. But in some ways it was knowingly being screwed and almost willingly being screwed for more filthy lucre.

[plenzmd1]

They didn't at all blow holes in it. What they did was show that it was not impossible in theory for atmospheric conditions to show a small reduction in a ball, and less of one in a Colt ball. It didn't do 1/100th of the actual tests that Exponent did, did not even attempt to explain away what happened with all of them, nor anything to do with what Brady, Jastremski and McNally did.

.

Sorry I am on my phone, but wanted to highlight the phrase" tests Exponent did" . Just google " Exponent, Secand Hand Smoke, Toyota, Hired Gun" ....that firm has just zero, and I mean zero credibility. I will take the test AEI did 1000% over Exponents....and I want the the Pats nailed. Hiring them was a big gaffe in my mind....same as the guys who argued for the the Pats when they are majority owned by Kraft.

 

So to me, throw the science in the Wells report out ..different gauges, only 4 colts balls etc....it's the circumstantial evidence that this case rests IMHO.

 

BTW, what is the PSI like in a real cold game ...like in a 15 degree game is the ball under 10? Should they have a pump and gauge on the sideline so all balls always at 12.5?

[dave mcbride]

It really is a bad disciplinary system, made immeasurably worse for being the responsibility of a hydrocephalic monkey like Goodell. But let's list all the people the players have to blame for it:

 

The NFLPA.

 

That's about it. The players get little sympathy from me; they were screwed by their own union.

I certainly don't disagree.

[Kelly the Dog]

Sorry I am on my phone, but wanted to highlight the phrase" tests Exponent did" . Just google " Exponent, Secand Hand Smoke, Toyota, Hired Gun" ....that firm has just zero, and I mean zero credibility. I will take the test AEI did 1000% over Exponents....and I want the the Pats nailed. Hiring them was a big gaffe in my mind....same as the guys who argued for the the Pats when they are majority owned by Kraft.

 

So to me, throw the science in the Wells report out ..different gauges, only 4 colts balls etc....it's the circumstantial evidence that this case rests IMHO.

 

BTW, what is the PSI like in a real cold game ...like in a 15 degree game is the ball under 10? Should they have a pump and gauge on the sideline so all balls always at 12.5?

You obviously did not read the report. And it wasn't only Exponent.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

It really is a bad disciplinary system, made immeasurably worse for being the responsibility of a hydrocephalic monkey like Goodell. But let's list all the people the players have to blame for it:

 

The NFLPA.

 

That's about it. The players get little sympathy from me; they were screwed by their own union.

Pretty much. And I do think Goddell's discipline choices have often been off base (fines for sock choices, coming down incredibly hard on recreational drugs but ignoring assault and domestic violence) but the NFLPA chose to trade limiting Goddell for more money. And for the guys who spend 4 years in the league and keep their noses clean it's easily worth that trade off. But Goddell absolutely has the authority to do what he is doing.

 

Whether that's a good idea or not...that's another discussion.

[dave mcbride]

Sorry I am on my phone, but wanted to highlight the phrase" tests Exponent did" . Just google " Exponent, Secand Hand Smoke, Toyota, Hired Gun" ....that firm has just zero, and I mean zero credibility. I will take the test AEI did 1000% over Exponents....and I want the the Pats nailed. Hiring them was a big gaffe in my mind....same as the guys who argued for the the Pats when they are majority owned by Kraft.

 

So to me, throw the science in the Wells report out ..different gauges, only 4 colts balls etc....it's the circumstantial evidence that this case rests IMHO.

 

BTW, what is the PSI like in a real cold game ...like in a 15 degree game is the ball under 10? Should they have a pump and gauge on the sideline so all balls always at 12.5?

Just did. Ai yi yi. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/18/business/la-fi-toyota-exponent18-2010feb18

 

Now I don't know what to think ...

Dog, whatever you think, the involvement of this particular firm is a red flag.

Edited June 23, 2015 by dave mcbride

[plenzmd1]

You obviously did not read the report. And it wasn't only Exponent.

I did not read the entire Wells report..but believe there has been enough independantbanoysisnto point out the flaws in the Exponent conclusions....which parts of the rebut all from AEI do you refute?

[NoSaint]

Sorry I am on my phone, but wanted to highlight the phrase" tests Exponent did" . Just google " Exponent, Secand Hand Smoke, Toyota, Hired Gun" ....that firm has just zero, and I mean zero credibility. I will take the test AEI did 1000% over Exponents....and I want the the Pats nailed. Hiring them was a big gaffe in my mind....same as the guys who argued for the the Pats when they are majority owned by Kraft.

 

thats whats hard with the nfl having a knack for shooting themselves in the foot with having their "independent investigators" not always come across very independent. It was an issue in the saints debate too. they kept calling the person totally independent and then having her do gymnastics to get to their conclusions instead of simply having her give the good and the bad. it makes it harder for me to jump on future reports.... and ill admit im not going through hundreds of pages and analyzing the chemistry, as i will cop to being no expert (nor does my opinion matter much) so i am relying on what i hear. and now theres some conflicting.

[dave mcbride]

thats whats hard with the nfl having a knack for shooting themselves in the foot with having their "independent investigators" not always come across very independent. It was an issue in the saints debate too. they kept calling the person totally independent and then having her do gymnastics to get to their conclusions instead of simply having her give the good and the bad. it makes it harder for me to jump on future reports.... and ill admit im not going through hundreds of pages and analyzing the chemistry, as i will cop to being no expert (nor does my opinion matter much) so i am relying on what i hear. and now theres some conflicting.

Yeah, the NFL seems to really have a tin ear when it comes to this stuff. Probably stems from the fact that Goodell et al have the mindset of oligarchs (and Kraft, for that matter).

Edited June 23, 2015 by dave mcbride

[K-9]

Does the hiring of Dr. Marlow to verify the Exponent research come into question as well?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Does the hiring of Dr. Marlow to verify the Exponent research come into question as well?

 

GO BILLS!!!

No one mentions that he did his own analysis and came to the same conclusion.

 

I keep coming back to this but it's inarguable to me. If you go into the scandal thinking that Brady is innocent, hardly anything makes sense: The drop in the balls pressure (including one at 1.9 pounds), the Colts drop which was far less, the Colts thinking a ball was underinflated and then it was, the guy responsible for the balls being nicknamed the Deflator, the texts between him and Jastremski, Brady's reaction after it happened with Jastremski calling him several days in a row at 7 am for 15 minute conversations, McNally texting Jastremski and telling him to deflate at halftime of a game, McNally stealing the balls right before the game to the point of the head official swearing about it, totally pissed off, and yelling "he's not supposed to do that!" and it being the first time in 19 years of officiating that happened, McNally giving three different answers to NFL investigators as to why he took the balls into the bathroom, McNally texting that next time he's going to overinflate them to screw over Brady, and much more...

 

NONE of that makes any sense whatsoever. None.

 

If you go into thinking it looks like Brady wanted them a little less than 12.5 EVERYTHING makes total perfect sense. Everything.

[mikemac2001]

No one mentions that he did his own analysis and came to the same conclusion.

 

I keep coming back to this but it's inarguable to me. If you go into the scandal thinking that Brady is innocent, hardly anything makes sense: The drop in the balls pressure (including one at 1.9 pounds), the Colts drop which was far less, the Colts thinking a ball was underinflated and then it was, the guy responsible for the balls being nicknamed the Deflator, the texts between him and Jastremski, Brady's reaction after it happened with Jastremski calling him several days in a row at 7 am for 15 minute conversations, McNally texting Jastremski and telling him to deflate at halftime of a game, McNally stealing the balls right before the game to the point of the head official swearing about it, totally pissed off, and yelling "he's not supposed to do that!" and it being the first time in 19 years of officiating that happened, McNally giving three different answers to NFL investigators as to why he took the balls into the bathroom, McNally texting that next time he's going to overinflate them to screw over Brady, and much more...

 

NONE of that makes any sense whatsoever. None.

 

If you go into thinking it looks like Brady wanted them a little less than 12.5 EVERYTHING makes total perfect sense. Everything.

At the start of this I thought it was dumb

It's still dumb

 

But after the report was released and I saw the info I believed they had to give him atleast two games

 

Bring the pump I'm gonna turn them into watermelons or rugby balls comments like that made this seem like it was happening for awhile

 

Brady not giving up text messages

 

The money and gear comments idk you have to be dumb to this he didn't know

 

This convo

 

Tom sucks...I'm going to make them balloons

Talked to him last night he brought u up and said its a lot of stress getting them done

 

Now I understand this could be prepping the balls but with all the other messages and the balls going missing before the game

 

Don't bull **** a bullshiter

Tom is guilty

[plenzmd1]

Kelly, i think if you go in thinking Brady was 100% guilty ...you will never admit to the discrepancies.

 

I was 100 % guilty till a few weeks ago....but just too much doubt about the science in the report. I mean , this is no refuting two gauges were used, refs have no clue which one they used to measure balls before the game...and they were . 5 off from each other at halftime...that in and of itself could be a 1lb difference just cause one Gauge was used pregame, another one at halftime.

 

12 Pats balls tested halftime, only 4 colts. And it could be argued the colts balls did not drop as much as expected...

 

All I am saying ....with no recording of pressure and which gauge Was used pregame...the " science" is of little use.

 

The circumstantial however is huge....and that is where this needs to be focused.

[K-9]

No one mentions that he did his own analysis and came to the same conclusion.

 

I keep coming back to this but it's inarguable to me. If you go into the scandal thinking that Brady is innocent, hardly anything makes sense: The drop in the balls pressure (including one at 1.9 pounds), the Colts drop which was far less, the Colts thinking a ball was underinflated and then it was, the guy responsible for the balls being nicknamed the Deflator, the texts between him and Jastremski, Brady's reaction after it happened with Jastremski calling him several days in a row at 7 am for 15 minute conversations, McNally texting Jastremski and telling him to deflate at halftime of a game, McNally stealing the balls right before the game to the point of the head official swearing about it, totally pissed off, and yelling "he's not supposed to do that!" and it being the first time in 19 years of officiating that happened, McNally giving three different answers to NFL investigators as to why he took the balls into the bathroom, McNally texting that next time he's going to overinflate them to screw over Brady, and much more...

 

NONE of that makes any sense whatsoever. None.

 

If you go into thinking it looks like Brady wanted them a little less than 12.5 EVERYTHING makes total perfect sense. Everything.

I don't know, Kelly, I think you may be underestimating the human factor.

 

Seriously, though, you are spot on here. This is a very reasonable bar for people to reach based on everything you've outlined. One would have to be totally biased in Brady's favor not to understand that.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[LeGOATski]

No one mentions that he did his own analysis and came to the same conclusion.

 

I keep coming back to this but it's inarguable to me. If you go into the scandal thinking that Brady is innocent, hardly anything makes sense: The drop in the balls pressure (including one at 1.9 pounds), the Colts drop which was far less, the Colts thinking a ball was underinflated and then it was, the guy responsible for the balls being nicknamed the Deflator, the texts between him and Jastremski, Brady's reaction after it happened with Jastremski calling him several days in a row at 7 am for 15 minute conversations, McNally texting Jastremski and telling him to deflate at halftime of a game, McNally stealing the balls right before the game to the point of the head official swearing about it, totally pissed off, and yelling "he's not supposed to do that!" and it being the first time in 19 years of officiating that happened, McNally giving three different answers to NFL investigators as to why he took the balls into the bathroom, McNally texting that next time he's going to overinflate them to screw over Brady, and much more...

 

NONE of that makes any sense whatsoever. None.

 

If you go into thinking it looks like Brady wanted them a little less than 12.5 EVERYTHING makes total perfect sense. Everything.

Mother nature's a *****, dude.

[DC Tom]

Pretty much. And I do think Goddell's discipline choices have often been off base (fines for sock choices, coming down incredibly hard on recreational drugs but ignoring assault and domestic violence) but the NFLPA chose to trade limiting Goddell for more money. And for the guys who spend 4 years in the league and keep their noses clean it's easily worth that trade off. But Goddell absolutely has the authority to do what he is doing.

 

Whether that's a good idea or not...that's another discussion.

 

To me, the Ray Rice discipline represents the problem better than anything. Two games for domestic abuse...and a lifetime ban for having the gall to be videotaped doing it, when the video added nothing material to what we already knew.

 

There's just no way to spin that bull **** without it ultimately coming down to "A !@#$ing idiot is in charge of a stupid !@#$ing disciplinary process."