Tired of Deflategate

[dave mcbride]

Please don't insult me with Pats hater blinders crap. I appreciate the game for!what it is and the players for who they are. Always have.

 

I have my "practicality in a court of law" blinders on. This conflict of interest will be impossible to substantiate by witnesses under oath. Indeed, it is as readily dismissable as I alluded to above.

 

Perhaps you need to remove your Goodell hate blinders.

 

GO BILLS!!!

did you check out the link?

EDIT: no need to listen - this summarizes it accurately: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/27/paolantonio-says-owners-arent-pressuring-goodell/ .

Edited July 27, 2015 by dave mcbride

[K-9]

did you check out the link?

 

EDIT: no need to listen - this summarizes it accurately: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/27/paolantonio-says-owners-arent-pressuring-goodell/ .

Yeah, I read it. Not surprised he is backtracking, but owners have been pestering commissioners of sports leagues forever. It comes with the job. I'm convinced that many owners have expressed displeasure about his decisions over the years and I am sure this situation is no different. Goodell pissed off a sizable chunk of the owners over Spygate and I'll bet they are in his ear about this as well.

 

None of that presents a conflict of interest though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[dave mcbride]

Yeah, I read it. Not surprised he is backtracking, but owners have been pestering commissioners of sports leagues forever. It comes with the job. I'm convinced that many owners have expressed displeasure about his decisions over the years and I am sure this situation is no different. Goodell pissed off a sizable chunk of the owners over Spygate and I'll bet they are in his ear about this as well.

 

None of that presents a conflict of interest though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think it does because an arbitrator who is supposed to be impartial logically can't be if he's fielding advice from a number of his employers who have an interest in seeing the accused pay the highest price possible. Goodell should have never taken this on--there are plenty of other good arbitrators out there, after all--but nothing can be done about it now. My guess is that at the end of the day, Brady won't sit out a single game. He'll take it to court, get a temporary injunction, and eventually win in court -- assuming he doesn't retire first. The ultimate irony would be if the judgment gets delayed beyond the end of this upcoming season (which in all likelihood it would be in this scenario) and in the meantime Brady wins an unprecedented 5th ring and retires!

Edited July 27, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

 

There are holes galore in the science, the policies and procedures (for taking measurements) and, ultimately, in the administration of applying the penalty, that I can't see any of them holding up if this goes to an independent judge. All that is left is non co-operation and, for the life of me, I can't see anyway the labour guys don't easily knock that out of the park in seconds flat.

Every single judge or arbitrator faced with all the facts in front of them as well as the mistakes and as well as the policies and procedures would come to the conclusion Brady knew and participated to some degree and then lied about it. It's literally impossible not to. They can argue over whether it affected the game or not or gave any advantage or whether the league or Wells screwed up. He cheated. 100%. There is no possible way 50 coincidences in a row happened.

[K-9]

I think it does because an arbitrator who is supposed to be impartial logically can't be if he's fielding advice from a number of his employers who have an interest in seeing the accused pay the highest price possible. Goodell should have never taken this on--there are plenty of other good arbitrators out there, after all--but nothing can be done about it now. My guess is that at the end of the day, Brady won't sit out a single game. He'll take it to court, get a temporary injunction, and eventually win in court -- assuming he doesn't retire first. The ultimate irony would be if the judgment gets delayed beyond the end of this upcoming season (which in all likelihood it would be in this scenario) and in the meantime Brady wins an unprecedented 5th ring and retires!

How do you prove Goodell made his decision based on advice from his employers?

 

I see things playing out pretty much as you predict, too. I feel that is why Goodell is delaying the decision as it helps ensure no missed games for Brady between the injunction and when the case is heard.

 

I don't necessarily think Brady rides peacefully off into the sunset though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the reason(s) are for not handing over the personal documentation; Brady was not obligated to to do so. If he's penalized for doing so, this likely ends up a labour law issue.

He is very obligated by the league rules to fully cooperate with an investigation. When they already have direct texts and calls and reports of unusual meetings from him with other Patriots employees about the specific incident, and he says I know nothing about it, I don't know one, I have no idea how that happened, and you can't see my texts or calls, he is rightly penalized for not cooperating.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[Pneumonic]

Every single judge or arbitrator faced with all the facts in front of them as well as the mistakes and as well as the policies and procedures would come to the conclusion Brady knew and participated to some degree and then lied about it. It's literally impossible not to. They can argue over whether it affected the game or not or gave any advantage or whether the league or Wells screwed up. He cheated. 100%. There is no possible way 50 coincidences in a row happened.

 

That is your opinion but even I could blow apart the science without much trouble. The league itself has already admitted its P&P are lacking and have changed them. The arbitration side of things already has been successfully challenged by the NFLPA previously.

He is very obligated by the league rules to fully cooperate with an investigation. When they already have direct texts and calls and reports of unusual meetings from him with other Patriots employees about the specific incident, and he says I know nothing about it, I don't know one, I have no idea how that happened, and you can't see my texts or calls, he is rightly penalized for not cooperating.

 

He can voluntarily make available his personal phone records but he is is not obligated to do so unless a subpoena is in place. On all other accounts, he fully co-operated.

[Rocky Landing]

 

 

He can voluntarily make available his personal phone records but he is is not obligated to do so unless a subpoena is in place. On all other accounts, he fully co-operated.

The argument would be that he was contractually obligated.

[Pneumonic]

The argument would be that he was contractually obligated.

 

To what though? Are there specific obligations spelled out in the CBA that reference handing over personal cell phones? Does this obligation extend to other instances of personal information beyond cell phones? For example, is he also obligated to make available a search of his car, or vacation home or permanent residence? Are his wife's personal belongings open game as well?

[NoSaint]

 

To what though? Are there specific obligations spelled out in the CBA that reference handing over personal cell phones? Does this obligation extend to other instances of personal information beyond cell phones? For example, is he also obligated to make available a search of his car, or vacation home or permanent residence? Are his wife's personal belongings open game as well?

I've been wondering this as well- at some point there must be a line, even if the cba is open ended Edited July 27, 2015 by NoSaint

[Pneumonic]

I've been wondering this as well- at some point there must be a line, even if the cba is open ended

 

I can't imagine much, if any, personal material is legally allowed. Any labour law guys around?

[dave mcbride]

How do you prove Goodell made his decision based on advice from his employers?

 

I see things playing out pretty much as you predict, too. I feel that is why Goodell is delaying the decision as it helps ensure no missed games for Brady between the injunction and when the case is heard.

 

I don't necessarily think Brady rides peacefully off into the sunset though.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Re: point 1, I have no idea given the latest comments by Sal P (who said nothing about Irsay, which I think was relevant). But the discovery process will let us know that, and it will definitely drag the process out if it gets to that stage. Plus Jim Irsay (from what I understand) may well have said something based on his "no comment" response to the story. Irsay is a clown, and it may matter. As I always say, we'll see!

 

As for riding peacefully off into the sunset, sadly, I think he will. But you should take succor from the fact that Satan is cooking up some plans as I write this. Gisele is not going to be around for that.

Edited July 28, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

 

That is your opinion but even I could blow apart the science without much trouble. The league itself has already admitted its P&P are lacking and have changed them. The arbitration side of things already has been successfully challenged by the NFLPA previously.

 

He can voluntarily make available his personal phone records but he is is not obligated to do so unless a subpoena is in place. On all other accounts, he fully co-operated.

Lying is not fully cooperating. They caught him lying. That's part of his suspension.

They said his answers were simply not plausible. Flat out.

[l< j]

See my post above. If you think the refs are exacting, I don't know what to say. My guess is that they just pump 'em up, give 'em a squeeze to see if they feel ok, and let the teams sort it out.

If you think stealing balls from the officials and taking them into a bathroom to alter them is okay, then I don't know what to say.

 

Actually, I do know what to say, but it violates the terms of service.

 

kj

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

loose translation from NFL network

Irsay denial statement - I would never presume to pressure the league to force any punishment and the allegations are false

Edited July 28, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[YoloinOhio]

@MarkDanielsPJ: On ESPN, @AdamSchefter said the NFL doesn't feel "inclined to budge much" on Brady's appeal. He expects the suspension to stay at 4 games.

[NoSaint]

@MarkDanielsPJ: On ESPN, @AdamSchefter said the NFL doesn't feel "inclined to budge much" on Brady's appeal. He expects the suspension to stay at 4 games.

talk this morning, i dont recall who said it.... i think mike and mike... that they current delay is likely three fold:

 

1) creating the appearance that they did all they could to negotiate this without the courts

2) making the verbiage in the response to the appeal as iron clad as possible

3) give bradys lawyers as little time as possible to craft a formal response for the court filings

 

 

of course, all of those also being good reason for goodell not to be the person hearing the appeal too, i suppose.

Edited July 28, 2015 by NoSaint

[thebandit27]

 

That is your opinion but even I could blow apart the science without much trouble. The league itself has already admitted its P&P are lacking and have changed them. The arbitration side of things already has been successfully challenged by the NFLPA previously.

 

He can voluntarily make available his personal phone records but he is is not obligated to do so unless a subpoena is in place. On all other accounts, he fully co-operated.

 

To point 1: no, you cannot. As I've told you directly on multiple occasions: you can take issue with the de facto numbers, but not with the discrepancy between the deflation of the sets of footballs. The NE* balls deflated more than the Indy balls by an amount that cannot be explained away by either the Ideal Gas Law or the Van der Waals equation (and both should be applied). Then, of course, you'd have to explain away why a guy that calls himself "the deflator" took the footballs away from where they were supposed to be, into a bathroom (supposedly to use a urinal that it turns out doesn't exist), for enough time to remove 1-2 psi from each of 12 footballs. Then you'd have to explain why this guy and his crony all of a sudden start having 10 and 20-minute conversations with Tom Brady day after day once the investigation starts. Just for good measure, you'd do well to also explain why Brady claims he didn't know McNally, yet also gave him autographed paraphernalia on more than one occasion.

 

To point 2: he is obligated per the NFL's policy on investigations into violations of the integrity of the game to fully cooperate with any and all requests made by investigators. The request was as lenient and easy to comply with as possible: Brady and his attorney could comb through his telephone correspondence and select material that applied to the case and submit it. They refused. It's time to ask yourself why?

 

They cheated.

 

Lying is not fully cooperating. They caught him lying. That's part of his suspension.

They said his answers were simply not plausible. Flat out.

 

Yep.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/07/tom-brady-sue-nfl-deflategate-suspension-roger-goodell-new-england-patriots

 

Brady, it would seem, has more to lose. He’d have to turn over that cell phone data to the courts and it would eventually go public. He might have to sit on the stand and answer, under oath, whether he ever instructed “The Deflator” to deflate footballs. He’d be the one playing a season under the specter of a looming trial. He’d be the one keeping the Deflategate story alive, likely into 2016. And, most importantly, he’s the one who still has a positive image to lose.

 

So go ahead Tom, go to trial. I want to see your private texts and emails !!!

[YoloinOhio]

@BenVolin: Stephen A: "I'm hearing that Tom Brady actually destroyed his cell phone."

 

@stephenasmith: Im hearing that Bradys 4-gm suspension will likely be upheld by the NFL.