Do We Have Any Bernie Sanders Supporters Among Us?

[Who is Yuri?]

So they all have equal shares and say in how the company is run? Isn't this basically Congress? Haven't we seen how that ends up?

I guess this is a joke. Who are you endorsing? You going to go with the Muppets endorsement, once they figure whatever things out, or are your own man, willing to put it all on the line? Are you man, or are you muppet?

Edited August 29, 2015 by Franz Kafka

[FireChan]

I guess this is a joke. Who are you endorsing? You going to go with the Muppets endorsement, once they figure whatever things out, or are your own man, willing to put it all on the line? Are you man, or are you muppet?

So they all have equal shares and say in how the company is run? Isn't this basically Congress? Haven't we seen how that ends up?

 

Everyone can't be a co-owner. Either you see the problems with that or you don't.

 

Willing to put it all on the line? Are you using Pop-Warner half time speeches to motivate me for Bernie?

Edited August 29, 2015 by FireChan

[Who is Yuri?]

So they all have equal shares and say in how the company is run? Isn't this basically Congress? Haven't we seen how that ends up?

 

Everyone can't be a co-owner. Either you see the problems with that or you don't.

 

Willing to put it all on the line? Are you using Pop-Warner half time speeches to motivate me for Bernie?

You can't see the differences between a small co-operative startup and US Congress? You need me to tell you, or can you do it yourself?

[GG]

 

No, you're looking at it from the perspective of an individual. You'll have to break yourself of that habit, in order to understand co-operation. Most often, a group of people share a common business interest and start a business together. They write bylaws, sometime incorporate - all this info is available on the SBA.gov website. SBA is the government agency that you brought up.

 

Co-operatives generally have organization wide meetings, and seek everyone's input. When or if the size becomes unmanageable, they might elect representatives. It's a small form of government.

The philosophy of co-operation, as I understand it, believes that everyone brings their own unique perspective, and the collaboration of these varied perspectives makes for a better end product. The results are rarely measured in profit, rather by quality, enjoyment, and self-worth. It's basic democracy, not what we think of as Communism. The main-stream of the Co-operative Movement believes strongly in small, local, and unique businesses. It's mostly basic small scale democracy. Sometimes, like businesses form a co-op, like in the dairy industry, so they are not racing towards the bottom, undercutting each other, and putting each other out of business.

 

The most dysfunctional organizations I've ever seen were ones where everyone is supposed to collaborate and reach consensus, with nobody accountable for a final decision.

[FireChan]

You can't see the differences between a small co-operative startup and US Congress? You need me to tell you, or can you do it yourself?

How small? And equal votes without equal shares?

[Who is Yuri?]

How small? And equal votes without equal shares?

I'm not an expert on worker Co-ops, but if Reagan was for them, I know they're not Communist.

 

http://ourfuture.org/20150817/bernie-sanders-proposes-to-boost-worker-ownership-of-companies

[GG]

I'm not an expert on worker Co-ops, but if Reagan was for them, I know they're not Communist.

 

http://ourfuture.org/20150817/bernie-sanders-proposes-to-boost-worker-ownership-of-companies

 

You should embrace this internet thing to find the whole speech and get the context of what he was talking about. Not co-ops, but ESOPs, which are wholly different animals. But I'm sure you and Bernie understand the difference.

[Nanker]

 

These people who each get one vote...did they each invest the same amount of money? When cash flow falls short of making payroll, do they each put up equal money to ensure everyone gets paid? Do they all have the same job at the company or does one do accounting while one does marketing while one does sales while one does AP/AR while one oversees project management while oversees manufacturing and distribution?

 

I mean, so far, everything you've described is nothing more than a few dixie cups shy of a Jamestown commune.

 

You DO know there's more to a company than ensuring everyone gets one vote, right? Where are the details to this utopia?

Oooh-oooh! Let me take a stab at it.

 

These people who each get one vote...did they each invest the same amount of money? Of course not. No money changes hands. This is a Co-Op, so everybody's equal. When cash flow falls short of making payroll, do they each put up equal money to ensure everyone gets paid? No one gets paid unless everyone gets paid. If there's no money made then the Government will step in with money to pay everyone. Do they all have the same job at the company or does one do accounting while one does marketing while one does sales while one does AP/AR while one oversees project management while oversees manufacturing and distribution? Everyone takes turns at every job in the Company Co-Op. That reduces jealousy and greed and promotes peace and love and harmony will abound.

 

I mean, so far, everything you've described is nothing more than a few dixie cups shy of a Jamestown commune. Now THERE was a leader! Do you remember how all the members freely gave Jim their retirement funds and welfare checks? That's real Co-operation at work. The nation could use a few hundred more Co-Ops just like that one, I tell ya.

 

You DO know there's more to a company than ensuring everyone gets one vote, right? Of course, they all get to eat lunch together every day when they decide to show up for work. Where are the details to this utopia? TBD. Clearly TBD. But the basic concept is a sound one. Once the Co-Op attracts someone with those skills, he/she will be made the leader and they'll make and enforce their rules and the details will sort themselves out... somehow. But then that person will have to step down as leader, because everyone has to be equal and there can't be a leader who would lead everyone. That wouldn't be fair.

 

How'd I do?

[unbillievable]

A small business with six guys getting equal votes on the company...

 

Who does the work?

If you think six guys will all do equal work, then you've never held a job.

 

What happens if it becomes successful?

Does each new employee get an equal vote?

So a guy who spent 20yrs in poverty working to make a company successful will get the same money (and vote) as the new hire?

 

What happens when the company gets sued? Who pays the settlement? Everyone?

Will the guy with 4 kids get paid the same as the bachelor?

 

What happens when the business fails?

Does the guy hired yesterday owe the same as the founders since everything is shared?

 

The problem with co-operatives is you expect a group of people to work equally towards a common goal. That's like expecting a flock of chickens to form a straight line on command.

Even cults have only 1 leader.

[IDBillzFan]

How'd I do?

 

I think you'd make a fine participant playing Bernie Sanders Mad Libs.

 

But I'm still curious to actual answers. I was assuming since Franz was in favor of the concept, he could answer my questions better. It seems unlikely he was touting Bernie's transformational ideas with something more than "We don't know all the details, but it's better than what we have," which, if memory serves me, is how we ended up with Obamacare.

Edited August 29, 2015 by LABillzFan

[B-Man]

DEMOCRATS IN DISARRAY: Sanders: DNC using debates to rig primary.

 

 

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) believes the Democratic Party is using its meager primary debate line-up to rig the nomination process.

 

“I do,” Sanders reportedly responded when asked Friday whether he agrees with former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley’s assertion that the debate schedule is “rigged.”

The two Democratic presidential candidates were speaking at the Democratic National Committee (DNC) Summer Meeting in Minneapolis on Friday.

 

“This sort of rigged process has never been attempted before,” O’Malley said in his speech earlier Friday.

 

The DNC has drawn criticism for scheduling only four debates before the early primary states cast their votes, and six total throughout the election cycle.

 

 

 

 

Hillary performs badly in debates, so the process was structured to protect her.

[3rdnlng]

Oooh-oooh! Let me take a stab at it.

 

These people who each get one vote...did they each invest the same amount of money? Of course not. No money changes hands. This is a Co-Op, so everybody's equal. When cash flow falls short of making payroll, do they each put up equal money to ensure everyone gets paid? No one gets paid unless everyone gets paid. If there's no money made then the Government will step in with money to pay everyone. Do they all have the same job at the company or does one do accounting while one does marketing while one does sales while one does AP/AR while one oversees project management while oversees manufacturing and distribution? Everyone takes turns at every job in the Company Co-Op. That reduces jealousy and greed and promotes peace and love and harmony will abound.

 

I mean, so far, everything you've described is nothing more than a few dixie cups shy of a Jamestown commune. Now THERE was a leader! Do you remember how all the members freely gave Jim their retirement funds and welfare checks? That's real Co-operation at work. The nation could use a few hundred more Co-Ops just like that one, I tell ya.

 

You DO know there's more to a company than ensuring everyone gets one vote, right? Of course, they all get to eat lunch together every day when they decide to show up for work. Where are the details to this utopia? TBD. Clearly TBD. But the basic concept is a sound one. Once the Co-Op attracts someone with those skills, he/she will be made the leader and they'll make and enforce their rules and the details will sort themselves out... somehow. But then that person will have to step down as leader, because everyone has to be equal and there can't be a leader who would lead everyone. That wouldn't be fair.

 

How'd I do?

Jamestown? The one in VA that actually was pretty much a commune or Jonestown?

[Tiberius]

DEMOCRATS IN DISARRAY: Sanders: DNC using debates to rig primary.

 

 

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) believes the Democratic Party is using its meager primary debate line-up to rig the nomination process.

 

“I do,” Sanders reportedly responded when asked Friday whether he agrees with former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley’s assertion that the debate schedule is “rigged.”

The two Democratic presidential candidates were speaking at the Democratic National Committee (DNC) Summer Meeting in Minneapolis on Friday.

 

“This sort of rigged process has never been attempted before,” O’Malley said in his speech earlier Friday.

 

The DNC has drawn criticism for scheduling only four debates before the early primary states cast their votes, and six total throughout the election cycle.

 

 

 

 

Hillary performs badly in debates, so the process was structured to protect her.

Yes! So much disarray!

[Who is Yuri?]

 

I think you'd make a fine participant playing Bernie Sanders Mad Libs.

 

But I'm still curious to actual answers. I was assuming since Franz was in favor of the concept, he could answer my questions better. It seems unlikely he was touting Bernie's transformational ideas with something more than "We don't know all the details, but it's better than what we have," which, if memory serves me, is how we ended up with Obamacare.

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest going to the library. The answers that I can provide are superficial at best and unlikely to satisfy your deep curiosity.

[TakeYouToTasker]

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest going to the library. The answers that I can provide are superficial at best and unlikely to satisfy your deep curiosity.

How can you support a philosophical concept when you don't understand how it works well enough to explain it?

[Magox]

How can you support a philosophical concept when you don't understand how it works well enough to explain it?

I would say it's more romanticism than anything else.

[Who is Yuri?]

How can you support a philosophical concept when you don't understand how it works well enough to explain it?

You're right. I do understand it, and just think that the questions being asked by some posters are passive-aggression, and not worth my time

[IDBillzFan]

You're right. I do understand it, and just think that the questions being asked by some posters are passive-aggression, and not worth my time

Ridiculous. You've been afforded an opportunity to make a case for one of your candidate's signature plans for the US, and the bottom line is that you don't understand it fully, but prefer it to anything else because...somehow the way people have been starting up their own businesses for the past umpteen centuries doesn't make everyone feel good about themselves?

 

That's what I've gotten from the exchange. I'll remember not to engage you the next time you trumpet one of Doc Brown's policies.

[FireChan]

If you want to learn more about it, I suggest going to the library. The answers that I can provide are superficial at best and unlikely to satisfy your deep curiosity.

 

 

You're right. I do understand it, and just think that the questions being asked by some posters are passive-aggression, and not worth my time

Does not compute.

 

Either you understand it and can provide a nuanced description of this "plan" or you don't and you can't. You don't understand anything if you can't explain it.

 

I'd love to hear some actual details. You've given us rainbows and magic, let's hear the nitty-gritty.

Edited August 29, 2015 by FireChan

[Magox]

Franz, you seem like a good dude. Just a general rule of thumb, at least for myself, don't try to go in depth on a position if you aren't either a) well-versed on the subject and/or b) you aren't willing to substantively defend it.

 

And no, posting a link without your explanation isn't substantively defending it. Posters here that have disagreed with one another can respect others with differing views if that poster is willing to make a logical cogent case.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Magox