Chef Jim Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Enroll in a community college and work real hard Nothing is a free I thought college was going to be "free"?
Tiberius Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Great point. Actually we do that now through admissions based on factors other than grades. If Bernie is so determined to get more people to college, why is he not campaigning to make it illegal to quit high school? That's free now yet so many in some areas choose not to finish. Tell that to Chef, he thinks billions of people will flood into colleges if it's made free.
Chef Jim Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Why does manager get paid more than the stock clerk? There are more people that can do the job of stock clerk therefore they get paid less Seriously?? That's the only criteria?
Tiberius Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 I thought college was going to be "free"? Yes, "free" Seriously?? That's the only criteria? No not the only
IDBillzFan Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 I quoted the relavent passage from his speech. Creating a new program, or agency in place of the SBA was your strawman. The cooperative model isn't exactly being championed by the SBA. I don't think you get the idea of cooperation. You're right I missed the word 'cooperative' in Bernie's quote, which is too bad because I would have spent less time writing about the benefits of someone having a stake in a company and more time talking about what the requirements are to take part in the cooperative. Let's start with some simple stuff: How much money does a person have to put in to be part of the cooperative? Do they have to be an existing employee, or just walk off the street with enough money to buy in?
keepthefaith Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Tell that to Chef, he thinks billions of people will flood into colleges if it's made free. They will. Young ladies who are generally more responsible at that age will sign up in droves only to be followed by young men who will sign up in droves for the opportunity if you know what I mean.
Tiberius Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Bernie Sanders appears to be pretty authentic and that's what people like about him. Plus he talks about giving free stuff and let's face it, about half the population like the free ****. But, his policy proposals aren't grounded in reality for this country, I mean I'm sure sure he'd make a good prime minister of Denmark, but as a country we aren't quite there yet. Of course that could change, if the GOP becomes a dissolved party and transforms itself to a "far right" party, that abandons economic "conservative" principles and becomes infatuated with immigration, nationalism etc much like we see across Europe, then we'll probably get there in short order. Which obviously would be disastrous. I shudder to think of the possibilities of what would happen to U.S corporations and small businesses not to mention U.S debt if Bernie had his way. What are your fears? Cutting off the crazy right from the GOP might actually lead to somethings getting accomplished. The Congress as it is now can barely get a roads bills to go forward for three months! At a time of low interest rates and low oil prices--which makes raw materials for roads cheaper-- these clowns can barely accomplish anything. Sanders would surely raise taxes but balance that with improved infrastructure and it could be a net plus. As it stands now the crazies on the right might seriously plunge the economy into the doldrums over planned parenthood.
Who is Yuri? Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 You're right I missed the word 'cooperative' in Bernie's quote, which is too bad because I would have spent less time writing about the benefits of someone having a stake in a company and more time talking about what the requirements are to take part in the cooperative. Let's start with some simple stuff: How much money does a person have to put in to be part of the cooperative? Do they have to be an existing employee, or just walk off the street with enough money to buy in? That's up to the co-op. In reference to the quote in question, which I'll remind you was given as evidence of communism, we should only be talking about business start ups. These presumptions that corprations will be forced to collectivize, or that property will be siezed are slanderous. Bernie's not even a big spender, nor is he authoritarian. Poor, white, rural Vermont loves him. That discredits the Communist boogeyman hypothesis that some are throwing out there.
DC Tom Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 These presumptions that corprations will be forced to collectivize, or that property will be siezed are slanderous. Except that he's said that.
IDBillzFan Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 That's up to the co-op. In reference to the quote in question, which I'll remind you was given as evidence of communism, we should only be talking about business start ups. These presumptions that corprations will be forced to collectivize, or that property will be siezed are slanderous. Bernie's not even a big spender, nor is he authoritarian. Poor, white, rural Vermont loves him. That discredits the Communist boogeyman hypothesis that some are throwing out there. Okay. So let's recap. What he's saying is that if you have an idea for a business, you can start up a company. And when you do that, you'd be an owner, which means you'll show up to work more reliably. Then, you can let employees have some equity as well. Am I understanding the basis for his whole coop thing so far?
keepthefaith Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) What are your fears? Cutting off the crazy right from the GOP might actually lead to somethings getting accomplished. The Congress as it is now can barely get a roads bills to go forward for three months! At a time of low interest rates and low oil prices--which makes raw materials for roads cheaper-- these clowns can barely accomplish anything. Sanders would surely raise taxes but balance that with improved infrastructure and it could be a net plus. As it stands now the crazies on the right might seriously plunge the economy into the doldrums over planned parenthood. There are some elected officials in Washington, a majority I believe, that want to address debt and deficits before more spending is approved. Planned parenthood should be an easy cut. With Obamacare women now have "access to birth control and reproductive care" so I don't see any reason for a separate organization to do this unless they want to operate like any medical organization and provide services covered by insurance and Medicaid and sink or swim like any other. Edited August 28, 2015 by keepthefaith
Who is Yuri? Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Okay. So let's recap. What he's saying is that if you have an idea for a business, you can start up a company. And when you do that, you'd be an owner, which means you'll show up to work more reliably. Then, you can let employees have some equity as well. Am I understanding the basis for his whole coop thing so far? No, you're looking at it from the perspective of an individual. You'll have to break yourself of that habit, in order to understand co-operation. Most often, a group of people share a common business interest and start a business together. They write bylaws, sometime incorporate - all this info is available on the SBA.gov website. SBA is the government agency that you brought up. Co-operatives generally have organization wide meetings, and seek everyone's input. When or if the size becomes unmanageable, they might elect representatives. It's a small form of government. The philosophy of co-operation, as I understand it, believes that everyone brings their own unique perspective, and the collaboration of these varied perspectives makes for a better end product. The results are rarely measured in profit, rather by quality, enjoyment, and self-worth. It's basic democracy, not what we think of as Communism. The main-stream of the Co-operative Movement believes strongly in small, local, and unique businesses. It's mostly basic small scale democracy. Sometimes, like businesses form a co-op, like in the dairy industry, so they are not racing towards the bottom, undercutting each other, and putting each other out of business. Edited August 28, 2015 by Franz Kafka
IDBillzFan Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 No, you're looking at it from the perspective of an individual. You'll have to break yourself of that habit, in order to understand co-operation. Most often, a group of people share a common business interest and start a business together. They write bylaws, sometime incorporate - all this info is available on the SBA.gov website. SBA is the government agency that you brought up. Co-operatives generally have organization wide meetings, and seek everyone's input. When or if the size becomes unmanageable, they might elect representatives. It's a small form of government. It is generally believed within the co-operative, in my experience, that by incorporating numerous perspectives, one get's The philosophy of co-operation, as I understand it, believes that everyone brings their own unique perspective, and the collaboration of these varied perspectives makes for a better end product. The results are rarely measured in profit, rather by quality, enjoyment, and self-worth. It's basic democracy, not what we think of as Communism. The main-stream of the Co-operative Movement believes strongly in small, local, and unique businesses. It's mostly basic small scale democracy. Sometimes, like businesses form a co-op, like in the dairy industry, so they are not racing towards the bottom, undercutting each other, and putting each other out of business. Okay...so a group of people have an idea for a product or service and decide to start a company to sell the product, and they pool their money and start up the company. Then they have meetings with everyone and collaborate and then....what? I mean, whether it's one person in business or six partners, in what way does this differ from anything other business with multiple partners? And just out of curiosity, let's say their focus really isn't on profit, but enjoyment and self-worth. Have you ever tried to pay your electric bill with enjoyment and self-worth? It doesn't work well. You need to focus on profitability or you end up with a bunch of people who are equal shares of nothing but debt. There has to be something you're not explaining well. How is this different than a business with multiple partners?
Who is Yuri? Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Okay...so a group of people have an idea for a product or service and decide to start a company to sell the product, and they pool their money and start up the company. Then they have meetings with everyone and collaborate and then....what? I mean, whether it's one person in business or six partners, in what way does this differ from anything other business with multiple partners? And just out of curiosity, let's say their focus really isn't on profit, but enjoyment and self-worth. Have you ever tried to pay your electric bill with enjoyment and self-worth? It doesn't work well. You need to focus on profitability or you end up with a bunch of people who are equal shares of nothing but debt. There has to be something you're not explaining well. How is this different than a business with multiple partners? A business with multiple partners, isn't typically set up with one member having one vote. Votes are weighted, and one partner typically holds a majority share in the arrangement you are describing. In a co-operative, it's one person, one vote.
/dev/null Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 There has to be something you're not explaining well. How is this different than a business with multiple partners? It's different because the co-operatives co-operate for the greater good but business partners are just greedy capitalists looking to exploit the proletariat.
DC Tom Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 How many posts before this gets to "hammers paid with labor."
/dev/null Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 How many posts before this gets to "hammers paid with labor." 3.5
FireChan Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 A business with multiple partners, isn't typically set up with one member having one vote. Votes are weighted, and one partner typically holds a majority share in the arrangement you are describing. In a co-operative, it's one person, one vote. So they all have equal shares and say in how the company is run? Isn't this basically Congress? Haven't we seen how that ends up?
IDBillzFan Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 A business with multiple partners, isn't typically set up with one member having one vote. Votes are weighted, and one partner typically holds a majority share in the arrangement you are describing. In a co-operative, it's one person, one vote. These people who each get one vote...did they each invest the same amount of money? When cash flow falls short of making payroll, do they each put up equal money to ensure everyone gets paid? Do they all have the same job at the company or does one do accounting while one does marketing while one does sales while one does AP/AR while one oversees project management while oversees manufacturing and distribution? I mean, so far, everything you've described is nothing more than a few dixie cups shy of a Jamestown commune. You DO know there's more to a company than ensuring everyone gets one vote, right? Where are the details to this utopia?
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