Do We Have Any Bernie Sanders Supporters Among Us?

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

Gee, talk about "unproven".

 

The whole country is playing "Identity Politics", and frankly I can't think of much, if any way I will benefit from more Latino (or Muslim) immigration, at this time. I can however, see some disadvantages (including wading through a near continuous chorus of "White Privilege!").

 

 

There is nowhere to go with this.

I had hoped I wouldn't need to get granular with this, but I'll go ahead and explain it in greater depth, because you apparently aren't getting it.

 

The Hispanic community has many shared beliefs which lend themselves towards conservatism. A massive percentage of Hispanics are deeply motivated by their Christian faith, believe strongly in the importance of both nuclear and extended family, and advocate the importance of "hard work" and "self reliance".

 

If you don't understand how the importation of these ideals can help the country, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

As to the "Identity Politics", yes, the red left has been very effective in substituting racial disharmony for socio-economic disharmony after realizing, in the 1960's, that socio-economic disharmony was a non-starter in a country in which trenches-to-palace economic mobility was a real thing, and no effective caste system existed. They did this by creating an expansive social safety net which incentivized the non-nuclear family, and then by using coordinated race-baiting to intentionally mis-educate to the idea that vaccum snap-shot disparity is clear evidence of an exclusionary system.

 

If you wish to capitulate to the left, embrace their inherent evil, go ethno-Nativist and fight a race war, by all means do so; but do it honestly, and declare yourself openly like Ozy.

 

Also, prepare to be ridiculed by those real conservatives who see the individual rather than assign them a group.

Edited October 11, 2016 by TakeYouToTasker

[Prickly Pete]

I had hoped I wouldn't need to get granular with this, but I'll go ahead and explain it in greater depth, because you apparently aren't getting it.

 

The Hispanic community has many shared beliefs which lend themselves towards conservatism. A massive percentage of Hispanics are deeply motivated by their Christian faith, believe strongly in the importance of both nuclear and extended family, and advocate the importance of "hard work" and "self reliance".

 

If you don't understand how the importation of these ideal can help the country, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

As to the "Identity Politics", yes, the red left has been very effective in substituting racial disharmony for socio-economic disharmony after realizing, in the 1960's, that socio-economic disharmony was a non-starter in a country in which trenches-to-palace economic mobility was a real thing, and no effective caste system existed. They did this by creating an expansive social safety net, and then using coordinated race-baiting to intentionally mis-educate the idea that snap-shot disparity is clear evidence of an exclusionary system.

 

If you wish to capitulate to the left, embrace their inherent evil, go ethno-Nativist and fight a race war, by all means do so; but do it honestly, and declare yourself openly like Ozy.

 

Also, prepare to be ridiculed by those real conservatives who see the individual rather than assign them a group.

 

Meh.

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

Meh.

I'll take: "the dismissive non-argument of an intellectual coward" for 500, Alex.

 

Care to explain how I'm wrong?

Edited October 11, 2016 by TakeYouToTasker

[GG]

 

 

Care to explain how I'm wrong?

 

Because, they're Mexicans.

[Magox]

 

Gee, talk about "unproven". ("it's all whitey's fault [largely]")

 

The whole country is playing "Identity Politics", and frankly I can't think of much, if any way I will benefit from more Latino (or Muslim) immigration, at this time. I can however, see some disadvantages (including wading through a deeper, and near continuous chorus of "White Privilege!").

 

 

There is nowhere to go with this.

 

But anyway, back to my original point (that compelled Magox to jump in. For some reason he claimed Sanders was pro open borders. When I cited sources that completely dispelled that, he didn't acknowledge them at all, but instead attacked me on some other point. Typical Magox)....I would gladly vote for Sanders over Trump or Clinton. It's a shame he dropped out.

 

 

I'm not going to address every asinine comment that posters make on this board, if that were the case rather than wasting a few minutes I'd waste hours.

 

If you want to know Bernie's position on immigration, he is essentially at the polar opposite view that you take.

 

I guarantee you that if he heard you make those comments about Mexicans and Latino's he'd admonish you.

 

Here are his positions, straight from his website.

 

https://berniesanders.com/issues/a-fair-and-humane-immigration-policy/

[Joe Miner]

So the board racist count is at 2?

 

Or are we including Baskin for a total of 3?

[TakeYouToTasker]

So the board racist count is at 2?

 

Or are we including Baskin for a total of 3?

Dante puts it firmly at 3.

 

The jury is still out on Baskin.

[Prickly Pete]

The European conflicts, which are the subject matter of the paper you presented earlier, are due (largely) to the influx of a hostile non-Judeo-Christian population whose culture is driven by a 1500 year old Theocratic rule which is incompatible with Western culture and values.

 

Black/white racial conflicts begin with America's "original sin", and would likely be nearly healed had Lyndon B. Johnson decided not to re-subjugate black Americans in the guise of political patronage.

 

Hispanic/Nativist conflict is caused (largely) by the irrational fears of people whom are seeking to protect something they never had from another group of people who wouldn't have had the ability to take it away from them anyway; forcing the immigrant Hispanic community to live in isolation by denying them the ability to assimilate, all while complaining about their unwillingness to assimilate.

 

 

So the board racist count is at 2?

 

Or are we including Baskin for a total of 3?

 

 

Dante puts it firmly at 3.

 

The jury is still out on Baskin.

 

Yep guys, TakeYouToTasker is clearly a bigot. His anti-white bias is plain for any to see.

[GG]

 

 

 

 

 

Yep guys, TakeYouToTasker is clearly a bigot. His anti-white bias is plain for any to see.

 

What?

[TakeYouToTasker]

Yep guys, TakeYouToTasker is clearly a bigot. His anti-white bias is plain for any to see.

Are you trying to intentionally post progressively dumber arguments? It sure seems like you are.

 

Or, how about actually making a real counter argument? Do you have it in you? I'm beginning to have some very strong doubts.

[Prickly Pete]

Not racist at all.

 

I don't consider any people of other races to be inferior, or condone persecution or oppression of ANYONE.

 

 

My position is that there is no advantage to me, to have the demographics of the country tipped out of my favor. Is there a country that would want that? Israel? Japan? Uhh...Mexico?

 

Picture large numbers of Chinese finding their into Mexico, and taking over demographically. Would anyone declare Mexicans that resist, "racists!"?

 

I even noted that I don't want immigrants from white countries either. There are too few jobs, and automation is growing.

 

 

 

I am 100% for aiding Syrian refugees, just not granting them citizenship. I feel the best way to help Mexicans, or any other country's people, is to assist them in improving their own country.

 

But I don't believe in granting citizenship to everyone that can get over the border line, because it harms the stability of the country.

 

I'm not disrespectful in my treatment of Mexicans (my wife, 3 kids?), I'm concerned with Mexican attitudes towards white people. The link to "latino rebel" lays out the common attitude I experience. You ask me to disregard my own personal experience, media I have encountered, etc., and instead just accept your own attitude, presented with a bag of wind.

 

To act as though there is no animosity between races is foolish, and dangerous. I have posted in the past, that I support immigration (including Muslims), but that it needs to be done slowly, to allow proper assimilation to take effect.

Edited October 11, 2016 by HoF Watkins

[TakeYouToTasker]

I don't consider myself racist at all.

 

My position is that there is no advantage to me, to have the demographics of the country tipped out of my favor. Is there a country that would want that? Israel? Japan? Uhh...Mexico? I even noted that I don't want immigrants from white countries either. There are too few jobs, and automation is growing.

 

I don't consider any people of other races to be inferior, or condone persecution of ANYONE.

 

But I don't believe in granting citizenship to anyone that can get over the border line, because it harms the stability of the country.

 

I'm not disrespectful in my treatment of Mexicans (my wife, 3 kids?), I'm concerned with Mexicans attitude towards white people. The link to "latino rebel" explains the common attitude I experience. You ask me to disregard my own personal experience, and any media I have encountered, and instead just accept your own attitude, presented with a bag of wind.

 

To act like there is no animosity between races is ridiculous. I have posted in the past, that I support immigration (including Muslims), but that it needs to be done slowly, to allow proper assimilation to take effect.

The element that appears racist, whether it is your intention or not, is that you have attributed, as a blanket, what you consider to be negative attributes to an entire race of people as a basis for not enacting reasonable, practical, and moral immigration reform.

 

The reality is that we share a 1989 mile border with Mexico, and as long as America represents a First World economy and Mexico and her southern neighbors Third World economies, immigration here will be the norm. Obviously we need secure borders, and no one here disagrees with that, however your preferred method does nothing to solve what your perceive to be the problem, but rather serves to exacerbate it. Currently there exists somewhere between 11-20 million illegal immigrants in this country, with the overwhelming majority arriving here being of Hispanic descent, crossing our southern border. However this number also accounts for some estimated 4-5 million individuals who arrived here legally, and outstayed their visas due to an unbelievably incompetent, inefficient, expensive, and lengthy immigration process.

 

Lets address this latter group first. The individuals arriving here legally through our visa process were permitted through the proper channels, and made lives here. They were largely either educated in our University system, possessed a marketable skill set American employers considered valuable which could not be obtained at reasonable cost in the domestic labor market, or were members of the immediate family members of those individuals. After either graduating, or leaving employment their visas expired, but because of the gross unwieldliness of our system, their requests for extension or citizenship aren't met by the government by the end of the government imposed deadline, and they slip out of the system. They have been here for years legally, have established productive lives, raised families, and greatly contributed to the American economy. The system, and America has failed them, not the other way around, and they should not be punished for this.

 

The second group largely lives in the shadows. They, upon arrival, become part of a First Generation underclass as part of the massive black market labor economy. That, however, is deceptive as their black market contributions are funneled into the "legitimate" economy as their labor is converted into real capital largely the form of food and energy, but also in a massive portion of the menial service industry. The effect of their low cost labor works to drive down the prices of good and services in a very noticeable way. As an example, Dole pays guest workers here legally to pick lettuce, approximately $8.40/hour. These workers are required to harvest 3000 heads per day of lettuce each. The days are long, physically debilitating, and are conducted in the heat of the South West. $8.40 is a generous wage, paid legally, for the work. A far lower wage is paid by companies smaller than Dole, who pay piece work, by the bushel rather than by the hour. And do you know what that means? It means that Americans like yourself don't have to pay $20 for a head of lettuce. This extrapolates across the entire American economy, making the relative luxury of an American working class lifestyle possible. Given their transience, they don't draw on the system in any meaningful way (the exception being liberal sanctuary states who seek to push benefits on them, though that's a separate argument about benefits rather than an argument about immigration)

 

The reality is that the children and grand children of these immigrants are the first generation that has a chance to assimilate, just as it has been with every other wave of immigrants the country has seen. The difference between what is happening now and what came before, is that this new group of children of immigrants is being actively prevented from assimilating into society because they, being here for two and three generations, never knowing a life anywhere else, and having no roots anywhere else are being told that they have to remain in the shadows, else a large percentage of the population would like to forcibly send them, or their parents whom risked life and limb, and toiled mercilessly to earn their children a better life, to a country in which they themselves have never lived, breaking up their families. Of course people treated like this won't embrace America. America won't allow it.

 

Further, when you take an entire race of people and demonize them as you have, by attributing these negative attributes to them those individuals who are American citizens, but share Hispanic heritage are going to take umbrage. What else can they possibly do?

[Magox]

Solid, TYTT.

[Prickly Pete]

The element that appears racist, whether it is your intention or not, is that you have attributed, as a blanket, what you consider to be negative attributes to an entire race of people as a basis for not enacting reasonable, practical, and moral immigration reform.

 

The reality is that we share a 1989 mile border with Mexico, and as long as America represents a First World economy and Mexico and her southern neighbors Third World economies, immigration here will be the norm. Obviously we need secure borders, and no one here disagrees with that, however your preferred method does nothing to solve what your perceive to be the problem, but rather serves to exacerbate it. Currently there exists somewhere between 11-20 million illegal immigrants in this country, with the overwhelming majority arriving here being of Hispanic descent, crossing our southern border. However this number also accounts for some estimated 4-5 million individuals who arrived here legally, and outstayed their visas due to an unbelievably incompetent, inefficient, expensive, and lengthy immigration process.

 

Lets address this latter group first. The individuals arriving here legally through our visa process were permitted through the proper channels, and made lives here. They were largely either educated in our University system, possessed a marketable skill set American employers considered valuable which could not be obtained at reasonable cost in the domestic labor market, or were members of the immediate family members of those individuals. After either graduating, or leaving employment their visas expired, but because of the gross unwieldliness of our system, their requests for extension or citizenship aren't met by the government by the end of the government imposed deadline, and they slip out of the system. They have been here for years legally, have established productive lives, raised families, and greatly contributed to the American economy. The system, and America has failed them, not the other way around, and they should not be punished for this.

 

The second group largely lives in the shadows. They, upon arrival, become part of a First Generation underclass as part of the massive black market labor economy. That, however, is deceptive as their black market contributions are funneled into the "legitimate" economy as their labor is converted into real capital largely the form of food and energy, but also in a massive portion of the menial service industry. The effect of their low cost labor works to drive down the prices of good and services in a very noticeable way. As an example, Dole pays guest workers here legally to pick lettuce, approximately $8.40/hour. These workers are required to harvest 3000 heads per day of lettuce each. The days are long, physically debilitating, and are conducted in the heat of the South West. $8.40 is a generous wage, paid legally, for the work. A far lower wage is paid by companies smaller than Dole, who pay piece work, by the bushel rather than by the hour. And do you know what that means? It means that Americans like yourself don't have to pay $20 for a head of lettuce. This extrapolates across the entire American economy, making the relative luxury of an American working class lifestyle possible. Given their transience, they don't draw on the system in any meaningful way (the exception being liberal sanctuary states who seek to push benefits on them, though that's a separate argument about benefits rather than an argument about immigration)

 

The reality is that the children and grand children of these immigrants are the first generation that has a chance to assimilate, just as it has been with every other wave of immigrants the country has seen. The difference between what is happening now and what came before, is that this new group of children of immigrants is being actively prevented from assimilating into society because they, being here for two and three generations, never knowing a life anywhere else, and having no roots anywhere else are being told that they have to remain in the shadows, else a large percentage of the population would like to forcibly send them, or their parents whom risked life and limb, and toiled mercilessly to earn their children a better life, to a country in which they themselves have never lived, breaking up their families. Of course people treated like this won't embrace America. America won't allow it.

 

Further, when you take an entire race of people and demonize them as you have, by attributing these negative attributes to them those individuals who are American citizens, but share Hispanic heritage are going to take umbrage. What else can they possibly do?

 

I'm not demonizing any race of people.

 

I'm pointing out that they will vote for their own self interest, which holds true if polls are to believed. Go back and read my statements, because much of what you are accusing me of, is the exact opposite of my stated position.

 

And you are a blowhard.

Edited October 11, 2016 by HoF Watkins

[Magox]

 

I'm not demonizing any race of people.

 

I'm pointing out that they will vote for their own self interest, which holds true if polls are to believed.

 

 

That's not what you said.

 

You said that ALL Mexicans/Latino's believe that this is their country, and that they only vote for the interest of their own race (myself included), essentially equivocating that they are the only ones to do so, via omission of other races.

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

I'm not demonizing any race of people.

 

I'm pointing out that they will vote for their own self interest, which holds true if polls are to believed. Go back and read my statements, because much of what you are accusing me of, is the exact opposite of my stated position.

Horseshit.

 

The great thing about web forums is that they save what you post for others to read.

 

If you didn't mean what you wrote, then perhaps you should learn to express yourself better, or stop making poor arguments. It's not anyone else's fault when you communicate poorly.

 

 

 

And you are a blowhard.

Again, the great thing about web forums is that they save what you post for others to read.

 

I tried, very hard, to communicate to you why your argument is terrible with much less verbose posts over the last few pages of this thread. It's there for anyone to go back and read.

 

It's not my fault that you are too stupid to understand my earlier attempts, and required a much lengthier explanation.

 

Again, do better.

[Azalin]

Solid, TYTT.

 

Yes, instead of quoting that whole post myself, I'll just agree with you. Well said, TYTT.

[Prickly Pete]

 

 

That's not what you said.

 

You said that ALL Mexicans/Latino's believe that this is their country, and that they only vote for the interest of their own race (myself included), essentially equivocating that they are the only ones to do so, via omission of other races.

 

You're right, I exaggerated. I think my claim was that those were "the attitudes of Mexicans I'VE MET virtually across the board."

 

 

But I never "essentially equivocated that they are the only ones to do so".

I essentially believe ALL races do it, and the more recently the particular wave of immigrants, the more likely they are to do it. Hence, the Irish were virtually all Democrats when they came over. I wouldn't expect Mexicans to be any different (and lo and behold, they vote HEAVILY Democrat).

 

I never claimed that I wanted to see families broken up, I said I didn't think it would happen (and I don't want it to happen). I said I want them to deport illegals arrested for violent crimes, and that I want them to tighten the border.

 

Where this idea that I think "ALL Latinos are Mexican" came from, I'm not sure (perhaps I mistakenly interchanged the words once, as I typed out a long sentence or something), but I certainly know that not all Latinos are Mexican. Since we are discussing immigration, and Mexicans make up the largest amount of both legal and illegal immigrants in question, I've focused on Mexicans.

Edited October 11, 2016 by HoF Watkins

[GG]

 

You're right, I exaggerated. I think my claim was that those were "the attitudes of Mexicans I'VE MET virtually across the board."

 

 

But I never "essentially equivocated that they are the only ones to do so".

I essentially believe ALL races do it, and the more recently the particular wave of immigrants, the more likely they are to do it. Hence, the Irish were virtually all Democrats when they came over. I wouldn't expect Mexicans to be any different (and lo and behold, they vote HEAVILY Democrat).

 

 

 

This shows that you haven't been following this board or don't know the full history of the country.

 

Care to guess why Irish, and to most extent Italians, have unilaterally voted Dem for generations?

 

A fun exercise it to dig up articles from 1870s, and replace "Irish" with "Mexican" and you will see an eerie similarity.

 

The GOP alienated 100-years worth of Italian and Irish voters with their nativist fears. And they're repeating the exactly the same mistake with Hispanics.

[Magox]

 

You're right, I exaggerated. I think my claim was that those were "the attitudes of Mexicans I'VE MET virtually across the board."

 

 

But I never "essentially equivocated that they are the only ones to do so".

I essentially believe ALL races do it, and the more recently the particular wave of immigrants, the more likely they are to do it. Hence, the Irish were virtually all Democrats when they came over. I wouldn't expect Mexicans to be any different (and lo and behold, they vote HEAVILY Democrat).

 

I never claimed that I wanted to see families broken up, I said I didn't think it would happen (and I don't want it to happen). I said I want them to deport illegals arrested for violent crimes, and that I want them to tighten the border.

 

Where this idea that I think "ALL Latinos are Mexican" came from, I'm not sure (perhaps I mistakenly interchanged the words once, as I typed out a long sentence or something), but I certainly know that not all Latinos are Mexican. Since we are discussing immigration, and Mexicans make up the largest amount of both legal and illegal immigrants in question, I've focused on Mexicans.

 

 

This is a more reasonable view from my perspective.