Early 4 Way Presidential Poll

[TH3]

Many of the GOP is good with a path to citizenship as long as the border is secured first.

 

I find this - not you - part of the lack of understanding of the voters. Illegal residence peaked in 2007 and has been declining ever since - down possibly as much as 20 percent - it was down 10 percent by 2011 - the last time a true gauge was taken. The US borders along Mexico have never been more closed - 38 Billion per year spent - and net immigration with Mexico now is ZERO, nothing, nada, we will have no more illegal Mexicans here next week, next month, next year than we have now.

 

But many prioritize this issue.

 

At the same time - we seem content with a Health Care structure whereas we pay 2x what every other country pays to provide their citizens cradle to grave care.

 

Hmmmph

[Magox]

This is an article from Matt Walsh with the Blaze. He is certainly a man of the right, not what some of you would call a mushy RHINO. If you've read his stuff, which I happen to disagree with more than a few of his positions, then you'd know what I'm talking about.

 

Anyhoo, here is his piece from yesterday regarding Trump.

 

To Trump Disciples: You’re Embarrassing Conservatism and Yourselves

 

Donald Trump fans,

Conservatism has a problem.

This problem seems to be metastasizing rapidly, and we’ve seen it manifest itself at numerous points in the last few years. It always goes like this: Some person comes along and says, like, one thing conservatives agree with, and next thing you know he or she is being hailed as the right wing messiah, and all who oppose the new savior must hand over their conservative membership cards and be cast out into the desert. It doesn’t matter if this savior is dishonest, frivolous, obnoxious, fraudulent, inarticulate, embarrassing, or for that matter profoundly liberal. All they have to do is vaguely plagiarize something conservative pundits and politicians have already said a million times since Sunday, and their status as right wing folk hero will be cemented. Indeed, even the conservatives they plagiarized must now bow or be forsaken.

It needs to stop. Conservatives don’t need another blubbering, narcissistic nitwit making a mockery of their positions. Conservatism doesn’t need Donald Trump.

Please. I think it’s unseemly for a man to beg, so I’m not begging, but I’m as close to begging as you can get. I’m pleading. I’m imploring. I’m beseeching. I’m doing other things I could list if I had a thesaurus handy. I am strongly urging you to drop this Donald Trump nonsense. For your own good, friends. For the good of the planet. For the good of the universe itself. Just drop it.

Donald Trump is a fraud. I’d call him a fool, but he’s worse than a fool; he’s a phony who makes fools out of other people. And, no, he’s not making fools out of liberals — trust me, they couldn’t be happier with the guy — he’s making one out of you.

 

 

 

My problem with Donald Trump, then, has nothing to do with John McCain and everything to do with Donald Trump. He’s a hack and a charlatan. And he’s suckered you. To prove just how suckered, you guys came out guns-a-blazing to protect his good name after this latest kerfuffle. The comments under TheBlaze articlewere dominated by viciously defensive Trump cheerleaders. I myself felt their wrath after I criticized Trump on my Facebook page. I was bombarded by Trump disciples calling me stupid, crazy, a liar, a traitor, a hypocrite, a “RINO,” and a politically correct “liberal” for daring to question their favorite celebrity politician.

 

These were tame compared to the private messages. All in all I counted dozens of people announcing they would never read my work again, and many more theorizing that I’m a deeply embedded liberal double agent hell bent on helping the Democrats win in 2016.

Yes, me. A liberal. I’m a liberal who writes lengthy attacks on Planned Parenthood and abortion, rebuttals of the gay agenda, defenses of Christianity, homeschooling, and parental rights, criticisms of “transgender” propaganda and political correctness, critiques of illegal immigration and the minimum wage, and impassioned rants against, Hillary Clinton, euthanasia, and the liberal racial narrative. In some segments of the conservative movement, all of this means nothing if I deign to besmirch the mighty name of Trump

Like Obama voters in 2008, you have become not proponents of a set of ideas, but advocates for an individual. You are supporters of personality, not policy. This is particularly true in your case, because Trump’s policies are either: A) non-existent, or B) completely anathema to anything that could possibly be considered conservatism.

I can’t even give him credit for being politically incorrect, considering that, other than his mostly surface-level observations about illegal immigration — observations that many, many, many, many, many conservatives have made, in much more thorough terms, many times in the past — he hasn’t really lived up to this reputation. If you take the time to watch his interviews and speeches, you’ll see that he avoids most issues, and when he does choose one to tackle, he does so with the insight, wit, and articulation of a drunken warthog. Often he comes off like an SNL parody of himself, promising recently that he has a foolproof planfor defeating terrorism — but he can’t tell anyone because it’s super secret.

And where was this “politically incorrect” warrior for truth when the Planned Parenthood scandal broke last week? Here’s the nation’s largest abortion mill, funded by tax dollars, caught trafficking in dead baby parts. All of the other Republican candidates denounced the organization, many of them launching investigations, and most calling for Planned Parenthood to be defunded. But Trump? Silence.

I thought this guy is supposed to be out there saying what nobody else will say. Where was he? Where ishe? I mean, I know where he is physically. He’s the guy up on stage with the bad tan and stupid hair bragging about his money and his Facebook friends. But where is he on policies and principles? Illegal Mexicans are bringing crime. Got it. Agreed. But what about, like, everything else that’s going on? Anything on that, Trump? Anything?

Well, to be fair, The Donald has on rare occasion given the public a more in depth look at his views. For instance, he wrote a book back in 2000 where he discourses about the need for assault weapons bans, legal abortion, socialized medicine, and higher taxes.

This is your right wing hero, friends. But you shouldn’t be surprised. This is the man who spent the better part of the previous two decades using his money to keep Democrats in power.

He’s given a considerable amount to Republicans as well, but that doesn’t negate or mitigate the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars this “conservative businessman” gifted to Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Rahm Emanual, Chuck Schumer, Charles Rangel, and other liberal darlings. He didn’t just vocally support liberal policies prior to his recent foray into Republican politics; he actively worked to empower the progressive tyrants who would enact those policies.

In fact, a look at Trump’s financial activity reveals that he was an especially active Democrat booster during the 2006 midterms; the election that put Reid and Pelosi in power. Meanwhile, Trump has solidified his conservative credentials by coming out, at various points, in favor of eminent domain, bailouts, and executing government whistle blowers.

So, alright, he’s a draft dodging, twice divorced reality star who supports gun control and abortion and corporate welfare, and who donates to Democrats, gives money hand over fist to the Clinton Foundation, and has worked tirelessly for many years to keep the worst sorts of liberals in office. At least, he was all of these things until about four years ago, when he decided to start scamming conservatives.

 

 

You should read the comment section from this article. Holy ****! These people who have been fans of Matt Walsh, who read his stuff now almost universally believe he's some sort of sell out mushy hack .

 

I find this - not you - part of the lack of understanding of the voters. Illegal residence peaked in 2007 and has been declining ever since - down possibly as much as 20 percent - it was down 10 percent by 2011 - the last time a true gauge was taken. The US borders along Mexico have never been more closed - 38 Billion per year spent - and net immigration with Mexico now is ZERO, nothing, nada, we will have no more illegal Mexicans here next week, next month, next year than we have now.

 

But many prioritize this issue.

 

At the same time - we seem content with a Health Care structure whereas we pay 2x what every other country pays to provide their citizens cradle to grave care.

 

Hmmmph

 

This argument is a flawed argument. I mean, you do know why it's been declining since 2007 don't you? I'll give you a hint, it's the exact same reason why healthcare costs have been declining over the past few years.

 

It's the economy. Less jobs = less opportunity = less migration from Mexico.

 

Weaker economy = less medical inflation.

[Azalin]

 

- and net immigration with Mexico now is ZERO, nothing, nada, we will have no more illegal Mexicans here next week, next month, next year than we have now.

 

 

You apparently do not live in Texas.

[Chef Jim]

 

You apparently do not live in Texas.

 

Or CA. The reason inflow has flat-lined is as Magox pointed out is due to the recession and lack of the types of jobs that many immigrants perform, ie construction. Just take a look at the local Home Depot on a Saturday. The flow coming is has not slowed it's just being met with the same amount of outflows. When the economy improves and home building starts back up again (like it has in CA the past couple of years) those outflows will slow to a trickle and we'll be back where we started. So let's just put the blinders on and stick with the status quo.

[B-Man]

Trump the Kook is leading the pack. Sorry B-Man, but this is a very poor reflection of the GOP for all those non-ideological voters that are capable of voting for either party.

 

 

Well, fair enough sir.

 

But you have posted several times that Trump will fade away.

 

So what happened with these low GOP voters that "reflect poorly" at this point, they suddenly agree with your viewpoint ?

 

You seem to want it both ways.

[Magox]

 

 

Well, fair enough sir.

 

But you have posted several times that Trump will fade away.

 

So what happened with these low GOP voters that "reflect poorly" at this point, they suddenly agree with your viewpoint ?

 

You seem to want it both ways.

 

Many of these supporters of Trump won't end up voting for the GOP nominee if it's one of the one's they consider to be a "RHINO". They'll sit out the elections just like they did with Romney. They'd rather not cast a vote for someone they agree with on 75% of the issues which in turn helps out the person they agree with on 5% of the issues.

 

That's how the minds of many of these folks work.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Magox

[B-Man]

 

Many of these supporters of Trump won't end up voting for the GOP nominee if it's one of the one's they consider to be a "RHINO". They'll sit out the elections just like they did with Romney. They'd rather not cast a vote for someone they agree with on 75% of the issues which in turn helps out the person they agree with on 5% of the issues.

 

That's how the minds of many of these folks work.

 

 

Again...........fair enough.

 

IMO you are sticking with the Left's caricatures of conservative voters, rather than the reality, but if you know some people who think that way...okay.

 

Almost all the conservative voters that I talk with have no intention of supporting Trump in the final round, they simply are trying to subvert the coronation of Jeb Bush by the DC establishment.

 

The memories of Dole.................McCain...............Romney are stlii fresh in the conservative mind

 

 

.

[keepthefaith]

Trumps early popularity sends a strong message to the other R candidates IMO. That is that a lot of voters are pissed off and want a leader who isn't going to be pushed around by other countries, will take a no bull common sense approach to the big problems and will be tough on anyone that gets in the way of progress or politicizes it. The closest person in the race to Trump in terms of attitude is Chris Christie, Cruz and maybe Carly although she is much more polished which probably causes her to be perceived more softly to some. Walker is quietly tough which might not play as well in a crowded field. I love what Trump is doing especially if it causes other candidates to add some attitude to their campaigns. Trump, if he could articulate his message more like Carly would be running away with the thing right now IMO.

[Very wide right]

 

Many of these supporters of Trump won't end up voting for the GOP nominee if it's one of the one's they consider to be a "RHINO". They'll sit out the elections just like they did with Romney. They'd rather not cast a vote for someone they agree with on 75% of the issues which in turn helps out the person they agree with on 5% of the issues.

 

That's how the minds of many of these folks work.

And what the hell are you basing this on? I assume you have spoken to all of his supporters.

[IDBillzFan]

Even NBC knows what's going on, which we'll attribute to the stopped-clock theory of accurate reporting.

 

How The Media Is Fueling Donald Trump's Campaign

[Magox]

 

 

Again...........fair enough.

 

IMO you are sticking with the Left's caricatures of conservative voters, rather than the reality, but if you know some people who think that way...okay.

 

Almost all the conservative voters that I talk with have no intention of supporting Trump in the final round, they simply are trying to subvert the coronation of Jeb Bush by the DC establishment.

 

The memories of Dole.................McCain...............Romney are stlii fresh in the conservative mind

 

 

.

 

This is the reality. The last election saw an increase of African American and Latino turnout from 2008, whereas the white vote declined by over 7 million votes. Meaning that a good portion of the right wing of the base sat out the elections.

 

Trump has been leading in most of the polls and a microcosm of that is on this board. Have you not been reading the comments by a few of the posters just in these threads? The supporters of Trump are fervent, they'll whimper out but they'd much rather support a complete buffoon like Trump over a qualified candidate like Jeb.

 

Jeb supports a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants and common core. Big !@#$ing deal, now all of a sudden he's not a Republican despite his strong conservative record as governor of Florida?

 

I think what people forget is that this country is made up of people from both the left and right and everything in between, and people generally want a candidate that represent everyone. However the base of both parties want their candidate to have "pure" ideological positions and if they go off script just on one or two policy positions that don't jive with their thinking, screw them to hell. They are no better than being a member of the opposing party.

 

Not only is that line of thinking retarded but it is completely counterproductive to the majority of the positions they support. As a result of this sort of thinking, rather than having Romney, we had executive action by the president on Immigration, dealings with Iran, the status quo on Obamacare and a number of other executive actions.

 

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater comes to mind. It's better to have 3/4 of what you want rather than nothing.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Magox

[GG]

 

 

Again...........fair enough.

 

IMO you are sticking with the Left's caricatures of conservative voters, rather than the reality, but if you know some people who think that way...okay.

 

Almost all the conservative voters that I talk with have no intention of supporting Trump in the final round, they simply are trying to subvert the coronation of Jeb Bush by the DC establishment.

 

The memories of Dole.................McCain...............Romney are stlii fresh in the conservative mind

 

 

.

If you can't nominate a bona-fide "conservative" who can't even win a primary contest, who is your holy grail savior?you'd figure people learned their lesson in the last two elections.

[B-Man]

There seems to be a lot of "leaping" to conclusions.

 

 

There are 5-6 GOP candidates that Conservatives can (and will) support........................you're letting this Trump silliness cloud things.

 

 

By the by..........where is this concen regarding a "purity test" on the dem side. It's MUCH worse there,

 

but I know that doesn't meet your narrative.

[GG]

Trumps early popularity sends a strong message to the other R candidates IMO. That is that a lot of voters are pissed off and want a leader who isn't going to be pushed around by other countries, will take a no bull common sense approach to the big problems and will be tough on anyone that gets in the way of progress or politicizes it. The closest person in the race to Trump in terms of attitude is Chris Christie, Cruz and maybe Carly although she is much more polished which probably causes her to be perceived more softly to some. Walker is quietly tough which might not play as well in a crowded field. I love what Trump is doing especially if it causes other candidates to add some attitude to their campaigns. Trump, if he could articulate his message more like Carly would be running away with the thing right now IMO.

Chris Christie bluster isn't even working in new Jersey, I'm sure it will work on the world stage. Once day maybe Trump and his supporters will recognize that this isn't a reality show.

[Magox]

There seems to be a lot of "leaping" to conclusions.

 

 

There are 5-6 GOP candidates that Conservatives can (and will) support........................you're letting this Trump silliness cloud things.

 

 

By the by..........where is this concen regarding a "purity test" on the dem side. It's MUCH worse there,

 

but I know that doesn't meet your narrative.

 

No need to get defensive, I'm not attacking you. It's ok to criticize the party you generally support, it really is. You make it sound like I want to buy in to some liberal narrative of some sort. I arrive to my conclusions based on hard data and things that I experience. I provided you facts about the previous elections of how the white voters for the most part sat out the previous election and how in the polling data that it shows the raw support for Trump. Then I show you a link to an article from the Blaze, and you can literally read thousands of comments virtually ALL showing their vitriolic responses to a VERY conservative writer who happened to criticize Trump. Then I pointed out to you the comments on this thread alone of people saying that they support Trump and that they could NEVER support Jeb.

 

And then you tell me "but I know that doesn't meet your narrative." That was a bit unfair.

 

And why should I show concern over the Democrats purity tests? I don't support them, no need for me to comment on their obvious pandering. You can't even say "All Lives Matter" without being criticized, and if you do you have to apologize immediately. Or that you can't criticize Planned Parent Hood for their callous attitude towards these unborn fetuses simply because they don't want to piss off the pro choice most ardent supports. Or somehow make the case that Global Warming is what created ISIS in a nod to the GREENS. Yes, a democratic candidate just recently said that.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Magox

[TakeYouToTasker]

As it is with me in every election cycle, unless and until the Republican Party nominates a candidate with strong libertarian credentials, I'll be voting Democrat. If the presumptive Democtratic nominee at this point is Sanders, and with both Republican candidates having no libertarian bent, Bernie Sanders gets my vote.

[B-Man]

 

No need to get defensive, I'm not attacking you. It's ok to criticize the party you generally support, it really is. You make it sound like I want to buy in to some liberal narrative of some sort. I arrive to my conclusions based on hard data and things that I experience. I provided you facts about the previous elections of how the white voters for the most part sat out the previous election and how in the polling data that it shows the raw support for Trump. Then I show you a link to an article from the Blaze, and you can literally read thousands of comments virtually ALL showing their vitriolic responses to a VERY conservative writer who happened to criticize Trump. Then I pointed out to you the comments on this thread alone of people saying that they support Trump and that they could NEVER support Jeb.

 

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

I was responding to Reply #92..............GG

 

 

.

[keepthefaith]

Chris Christie bluster isn't even working in new Jersey, I'm sure it will work on the world stage. Once day maybe Trump and his supporters will recognize that this isn't a reality show.

I think Trump will flame out after a couple debates. Christie I think will rise some but my money is on Walker in the longer run but he has to find a way to get more people fired up about him.

Edited July 22, 2015 by keepthefaith

[GG]

As it is with me in every election cycle, unless and until the Republican Party nominates a candidate with strong libertarian credentials, I'll be voting Democrat. If the presumptive Democtratic nominee at this point is Sanders, and with both Republican candidates having no libertarian bent, Bernie Sanders gets my vote.

Good luck with the quest, Don Quixote. I'm sure you apply that perfectionist standard to all the facets in your life.

 

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

I was responding to Reply #92..............GG

 

 

.

 

I guess I'll just have to copy Magox's response then. Exactly which narrative that I'm pushing?

 

That Trump is a snake oil salesman, and 24% of the people taking the recent poll need to get their heads examined? Guilty.

Even NBC knows what's going on, which we'll attribute to the stopped-clock theory of accurate reporting.

 

How The Media Is Fueling Donald Trump's Campaign

 

And a rare occasion of agreeing with HuffPo

[Magox]

I think Trump will flame out after a couple debates. Christie I think will rise some but my money is on Walker in the longer run but he has to find a way to get more people fired up about him.

 

Walker has lots of upside, he is possibly in the best position to fire up both the base and the establishment wings of the party. Now we will see what kind of campaign he runs.