Magox Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Those articles are ****. The first one doesn't even refer to illegals and the other cites some unknown study by an unnamed university with no reference to methodology or data used. What are you talking about? There are multiple studies that are cited in the articles, all you have to do is click on the links and read the methodology. The article you posted from the American Thinker basically cites an interpretation that he even admits is like comparing apples to oranges. IRob, just about every major study comes to a completely different conclusion than the author of the article you linked interpretation of the data he read. Sorry Rob, but the link you posted is some bull **** interpretation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 What are you talking about? There are multiple studies that are cited in the articles, all you have to do is click on the links and read the methodology. The article you posted from the American Thinker basically cites an interpretation that he even admits is like comparing apples to oranges. IRob, just about every major study comes to a completely different conclusion than the author of the article you linked interpretation of the data he read. Sorry Rob, but the link you posted is some bull **** interpretation 2 of those talk about immigrant (as opposed to illegal immigrant) statistics. I didn't read beyond that because it's not relevant, although I suspect if I did I'd find flaws. The one by judicial review is utterly worthless. That leaves the reason.com link which was the only one that was both relevant and discussed methodology. It appeared skewed to find a desired outcome, but to be fair I didn't give it more than a cursory reading. Intuitively speaking, it requires the willful suspension of disbelief to assume that Americans commit more crime than illegals. I'm guessing if you omitted high crime urban areas, like Compton and the gang lands of Chicago, that the discrepancy would be far greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 2 of those talk about immigrant (as opposed to illegal immigrant) statistics. I didn't read beyond that because it's not relevant, although I suspect if I did I'd find flaws. The one by judicial review is utterly worthless. That leaves the reason.com link which was the only one that was both relevant and discussed methodology. It appeared skewed to find a desired outcome, but to be fair I didn't give it more than a cursory reading. Intuitively speaking, it requires the willful suspension of disbelief to assume that Americans commit more crime than illegals. I'm guessing if you omitted high crime urban areas, like Compton and the gang lands of Chicago, that the discrepancy would be far greater. No, actually some of the studies delve into illegal, first generation and second generation immigrants. I did take the time to read the highlights of the studies, Including the link you provided which as I stated earlier even the author admits that he was mixing and matching the stats he provided to come to his conclusion. In other words, it was pure crap. You didn't even bother to look into the studies. Since you were either too lazy or not interested in reading something that didn't fit your view point, here. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/ Very simple to read with sources provided. Your intuition regarding who commits more crimes is explained why people have the views that they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 No, actually some of the studies delve into illegal, first generation and second generation immigrants. I did take the time to read the highlights of the studies, Including the link you provided which as I stated earlier even the author admits that he was mixing and matching the stats he provided to come to his conclusion. In other words, it was pure crap. You didn't even bother to look into the studies. Since you were either too lazy or not interested in reading something that didn't fit your view point, here. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/ Very simple to read with sources provided. Your intuition regarding who commits more crimes is explained why people have the views that they have. You're doing what you accuse me of. You, for whatever reason, have a deep desire for your position to be true. You've posted yet another study that conflates "foreign born," "immigrant," and "illegal immigrant" as though they were synonymous. Further, the data appears cherry picked and largely unexplained. In the article I linked they presented the raw data and explained how they got there. The fact that he admits the limitations on his data is to his credit. That one you cited states conclusive findings as unquestioned facts. I think if you didn't so desperately want to believe it you'd easily see the flaws I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 You're doing what you accuse me of. You, for whatever reason, have a deep desire for your position to be true. "For whatever reason?" Let's go with "Because having a deep desire for your position to be false is insane." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 You're doing what you accuse me of. You, for whatever reason, have a deep desire for your position to be true. You've posted yet another study that conflates "foreign born," "immigrant," and "illegal immigrant" as though they were synonymous. Further, the data appears cherry picked and largely unexplained. In the article I linked they presented the raw data and explained how they got there. The fact that he admits the limitations on his data is to his credit. That one you cited states conclusive findings as unquestioned facts. I think if you didn't so desperately want to believe it you'd easily see the flaws I do. Ok, you haven't clicked on the links. I think that's obvious. Tomorrow when I can copy and paste the portions that you aren't seeing, I will post them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 "For whatever reason?" Let's go with "Because having a deep desire for your position to be false is insane." Hardy friggin har. You know what I'm saying. He really really wants the theory that illegals commit less crime to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Hardy friggin har. You know what I'm saying. He really really wants the theory that illegals commit less crime to be true. It's not me, it's all those studies that you neglect to delve into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 No, actually some of the studies delve into illegal, first generation and second generation immigrants. I did take the time to read the highlights of the studies, Including the link you provided which as I stated earlier even the author admits that he was mixing and matching the stats he provided to come to his conclusion. In other words, it was pure crap. You didn't even bother to look into the studies. Since you were either too lazy or not interested in reading something that didn't fit your view point, here. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/07/02/surprise-donald-trump-is-wrong-about-immigrants-and-crime/ Very simple to read with sources provided. Your intuition regarding who commits more crimes is explained why people have the views that they have. You and Rob weren't here for the debates on Bush's immigration proposal. The main reason a decent proposal to begin immigration reform was shot down by the GOP was the false talking points about Latinos festered by Rush, Hannity & Beck. Was ad still is a classic case of using individual examples to paint a broad stroke. So here we are, 8 years later and no closer to devising a reasonable solution,which left the door wide open for Obama to enact an imperial diktat. I'm sure all the opponents from 2007 are doing victory laps over their triumph. Funny part is, as remarked back then, look at the anti-Hispanic talking pons, and they sound nearly identical to the anti-Irish crusades of mid 1800s or the anti-Italian or Jewish diatribes of a century ago. Little things like that which caused these groups to massively support Democrats for generations. Hardy friggin har. You know what I'm saying. He really really wants the theory that illegals commit less crime to be true. Link statistics, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) You and Rob weren't here for the debates on Bush's immigration proposal. The main reason a decent proposal to begin immigration reform was shot down by the GOP was the false talking points about Latinos festered by Rush, Hannity & Beck. Was ad still is a classic case of using individual examples to paint a broad stroke. So here we are, 8 years later and no closer to devising a reasonable solution,which left the door wide open for Obama to enact an imperial diktat. I'm sure all the opponents from 2007 are doing victory laps over their triumph. Funny part is, as remarked back then, look at the anti-Hispanic talking pons, and they sound nearly identical to the anti-Irish crusades of mid 1800s or the anti-Italian or Jewish diatribes of a century ago. Little things like that which caused these groups to massively support Democrats for generations. Link statistics, then. I did link statistics. Further, I don't understand why some of you insist that having an open border is harmless. Better yet, why is it not preferable for us to choose who we let in and do it in an orderly fashion so we know who's here? Is this the world you want your kids to grow up in? Edited July 22, 2015 by Rob's House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I did link statistics. Further, I don't understand why some of you insist that having an open border is harmless. Better yet, why is it not preferable for us to choose who we let in and do it in an orderly fashion so we know who's here? Who said that? I certainly didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Who said that? I certainly didn't. The person I quoted seemed to imply it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I tend to believe in socio-economic privilege over race privilege to be honest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 The person I quoted seemed to imply it. Then you have a far worse comprehension level than I give you credit for. In what bizarro world of yours does immigration reform equal open borders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) The person I quoted seemed to imply it.I don't believe that to be the case, but I'm sure GG will communicate his view on this. My view is what are we going to do with all these undocumented immigrants that are already here? And what can we do to limit the inflows of illegal immigration moving forward? It's complex, but the idea of rounding them all up and sending them home is not a plausible solution for a whole host of reasons. But on the other hand, you don't want to send the message that if you come here illegally that you will be rewarded with citizenship. Some of the ideas that are being floated out there of having them pay hefty fines and then having to wait in line for 10 years before they can even apply for citizenship, all while now becoming tax paying residents that are NOT eligible for most of the bennies that citizens can relceive seems fair to me. Edited July 22, 2015 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Then you have a far worse comprehension level than I give you credit for. In what bizarro world of yours does immigration reform equal open borders? I got that you want immigration reform; the last bit was where I drew that from, but on a second reading that was probably a misinterpretation on my part. I don't believe that to be the case, but I'm sure GG will communicate his view on this. My view is what are we going to do with all these undocumented immigrants that are already here? And what can we do to limit the inflows of illegal immigration moving forward? It's complex, but the idea of rounding them all up and sending them home is not a plausible solution for a whole host of reasons. But on the other hand, you don't want to send the message that if you come here illegally that you will be rewarded with citizenship. Some of the ideas that are being floated out there of having them pay hefty fines and then having to wait in line for 10 years before they can even apply for citizenship, all while now becoming tax paying residents that are NOT eligible for most of the bennies that citizens can relceive seems fair to me. I like that idea, but until we stop the steady flow across the border I think it will just provide more incentive for other illegals to cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I got that you want immigration reform; the last bit was where I drew that from, but on a second reading that was probably a misinterpretation on my part. It all goes back to the basic economics of supply and demand. If you map immigration levels to the US, they correlate very highly to economic expansions. That was the case until the '1990s and thereafter when immigration laws/quotas did not keep up with demand for cheap labor. What do you think happens when there's a restriction on supply in times of high demand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 It all goes back to the basic economics of supply and demand. If you map immigration levels to the US, they correlate very highly to economic expansions. That was the case until the '1990s and thereafter when immigration laws/quotas did not keep up with demand for cheap labor. What do you think happens when there's a restriction on supply in times of high demand? Obviously the price goes up. I'm not concerned about them taking jobs. I'm concerned about having millions of anonymous people rolling across the border in droves without any screening or documenting process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I don't believe that to be the case, but I'm sure GG will communicate his view on this. My view is what are we going to do with all these undocumented immigrants that are already here? And what can we do to limit the inflows of illegal immigration moving forward? It's complex, but the idea of rounding them all up and sending them home is not a plausible solution for a whole host of reasons. But on the other hand, you don't want to send the message that if you come here illegally that you will be rewarded with citizenship. Some of the ideas that are being floated out there of having them pay hefty fines and then having to wait in line for 10 years before they can even apply for citizenship, all while now becoming tax paying residents that are NOT eligible for most of the bennies that citizens can relceive seems fair to me. We've been down this road before and it is ironic that we've circled around to the same spot again. We need to secure the borders and stop the influx of illegals. When that happens, I'm willing to talk about the illegals that are already here. Anyone not believing in securing the borders first is just blowing smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I tend to believe in socio-economic privilege over race privilege to be honest... That's because you're a reasonable human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts