John from Riverside Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Andrew Luck would've been great with Hackett as his OC OK...your getting it twisted (again) Andrew Luck.....and Payton Manning......and Drew Breez....and the patriots evil QB Those type of QBs are going to be good no matter what....no matter what the system....they will overcome back OC's There are like 5-6 of them in the league We do not have one of those QBs....chances are we are wont for a long long time So what do we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JESSEFEFFER Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 There were things about Marrone that I did like and times when I felt like he was showing good management of his team. Backing Dareus, challenging Hughes, giving Mike Williams another chance, sending some sort of message to Woods, talking about players not being good teammates and the like. At the time he benched EJ because of his apparent regression, he said something to the effect that there would be alot of crap coming out but that it wasn't all EJs fault. There things for him to work on and improve and that if he handled his business the right way, EJ could still have a decent NFL career. I was ok with this. It sounded like wisdom. But then Orton started playing like crap, in many ways worse than EJ, and DM kept trotting out the "he gives us the best chance to win" line right up through week 17. Maybe this was still wisdom in that it gave EJ a chance to be remake himself in the offseason without any recent failures to weigh on his confidence and still be a viable starting candidate for the 2015 season. Then we heard the stories about St. Doug how he wasn't pleasant with any of the staff at One Bills Drive, football or otherwise. Wanting the best starting 5 o-lineman not named Urbik, the misreading of his own marketability and his attempted power grab. None of this speaks of wisdom to me. Enter Rex, the new staff and a new season. There certainly is some mystery about how EJ will look in this offense with these coaches. The general assumption outside these parts is that EJ's benching sealed his NFL fate. I'd give that a Lee Corso "Not so fast!" and predict that EJ will succeed under these coaches if given the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 There were things about Marrone that I did like and times when I felt like he was showing good management of his team. Backing Dareus, challenging Hughes, giving Mike Williams another chance, sending some sort of message to Woods, talking about players not being good teammates and the like. At the time he benched EJ because of his apparent regression, he said something to the effect that there would be alot of crap coming out but that it wasn't all EJs fault. There things for him to work on and improve and that if he handled his business the right way, EJ could still have a decent NFL career. I was ok with this. It sounded like wisdom. But then Orton started playing like crap, in many ways worse than EJ, and DM kept trotting out the "he gives us the best chance to win" line right up through week 17. Maybe this was still wisdom in that it gave EJ a chance to be remake himself in the offseason without any recent failures to weigh on his confidence and still be a viable starting candidate for the 2015 season. Then we heard the stories about St. Doug how he wasn't pleasant with any of the staff at One Bills Drive, football or otherwise. Wanting the best starting 5 o-lineman not named Urbik, the misreading of his own marketability and his attempted power grab. None of this speaks of wisdom to me. Enter Rex, the new staff and a new season. There certainly is some mystery about how EJ will look in this offense with these coaches. The general assumption outside these parts is that EJ's benching sealed his NFL fate. I'd give that a Lee Corso "Not so fast!" and predict that EJ will succeed under these coaches if given the chance. What was maddening about Orton was you could live with his old man running when he was making accurate aggressive throws down field When he stopped doing that.....his lack of mobility started really showing its ugly head. I dont want a running back QB.....but it sure is nice to have someone that can convert a first down with his legs when needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YattaOkasan Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 The same way we have no possible way of knowing whether EJ would have been better with a different OC but it hasn't stopped people yet. We're actually going to see him with a different OC, and as many of the "apologizers" have said if he can't make it this year then the book is definitely closed. Its funny that most of the argument isn't about whether the book on EJ is closed, but rather what is the likelihood that he can put it together. I think I would be labelled as an EJ sympathizer, but then again I always Billieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 We're actually going to see him with a different OC, and as many of the "apologizers" have said if he can't make it this year then the book is definitely closed. Its funny that most of the argument isn't about whether the book on EJ is closed, but rather what is the likelihood that he can put it together. I think I would be labelled as an EJ sympathizer, but then again I always Billieve. Well said. I'm not going to bury the guy because he didn't succeed with Hackett and Marrone. A lot of offensive players didn't. He doesn't make it with the new staff, I will gladly turn the page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwalter Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 my main takeaways from this thread: 1 - EJ is good 2 - EJ sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Just as an interesting experiment I have Tedd Bridgewater up on my NFL rewind. - The first pass Teddie throws is soooooo far to the back shoulder of Jennings who makes an acrobatic catch to come down with it........its amazing how good QBs look when their wide receivers help them out. - The next pass he throws is far downfield and should have been intercepted (he had a decent amount of time on that throw as well) - The Vikings game is totally working.....just no negative stuff....a chunk here....a chunk there - Sports commentators show a snapshot of how Teddy Bridgewater was sacked 8 times in his previous game by the Lions - Bridgewater is showing pretty good accuracy on screens short throw stuff - End of the 1st Teddie overthrows a over the middle open reciever - Jackson being carted off the field....my heart still drops every time i see it - Teddie overthrows a route coming out of the backfield - Teddie throws deep...not even close to the receiver - Teddie scrambles......doinks a ball off the back of a bill and is intercepted by another BIll (We would be crucifying him at this point) - Teddie throws another pick on the vikings very next offensive possession (Teddie would be horse glue at this point) - Teddie throws a nice middle throw complete with a bill draped all over him - Teddie nice short throw to a WR with an opportunity with RAC and scores - Down goes Spiller with the shoulder ($*$*%$*) This is about a halfs work of work........ I see some good......some bad.......I fail to see where Teddy looks great while EJ's games looked like a dumpster fire That praise started going downhill fast as the season wore on It will this year So you watched one replay of a single half of football and thought you could come to a conclusion on how good or bad a QB is? My goodness.. Edited July 22, 2015 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Are there any good stats for EJ? Which stat doesn't have him ranked in the bottom tier for QBs? DID YOU read the opening post? View / listen to the actual link? when you do please get back to me. The stamina of this thread is fascinating... as good as your defending Brady* V The Wells Report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) DID YOU read the opening post? View / listen to the actual link? when you do please get back to me. Are you considering 1st down passing in a 1 score game an actual stat? Tell me you're joking right? Is that how low people have to dig just to find something he isn't at the bottom of the league in? What's next? EJ is the best in the league on 2nd and 8 when the wind is blowing 6 mph from the east? Edited July 22, 2015 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kemp Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 hyperbole police When given time to throw, EJ still managed to miss wide open receivers, at times. I suppose he could get worse if he throws it straight up in the air and hopes for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 So you watched one replay of a single half of football and thought you could come to a conclusion on how good or bad a QB is? My goodness.. No I just had to go back to work....I will watch the rest of it later When given time to throw, EJ still managed to miss wide open receivers, at times. I suppose he could get worse if he throws it straight up in the air and hopes for the best. You do realize that other QBs in the league also miss wide open receivers at times...... Are you considering 1st down passing in a 1 score game an actual stat? Tell me you're joking right? Is that how low people have to dig just to find something he isn't at the bottom of the league in? What's next? EJ is the best in the league on 2nd and 8 when the wind is blowing 6 mph from the east? When you are looking at a limited body of work (and lets face it....the kid doesnt even have a full 16 starts....then you have to look a limited body of work and make your evaluations off of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 OK...your getting it twisted (again) Andrew Luck.....and Payton Manning......and Drew Breez....and the patriots evil QB Those type of QBs are going to be good no matter what....no matter what the system....they will overcome back OC's There are like 5-6 of them in the league We do not have one of those QBs....chances are we are wont for a long long time So what do we do? Can they overcome bad offensive lines though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Can they overcome bad offensive lines though? I dont know and I dont wanna know.....really hope they get that figured out this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I dont know and I dont wanna know.....really hope they get that figured out this year. I was more referring to Brady, Manning, Brees of the like. Brady might not have the best receivers or backs but one things for sure; they make sure he stays upright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) OK...your getting it twisted (again) Andrew Luck.....and Payton Manning......and Drew Breez....and the patriots evil QB Those type of QBs are going to be good no matter what....no matter what the system....they will overcome back OC's There are like 5-6 of them in the league We do not have one of those QBs....chances are we are wont for a long long time So what do we do? I'm not getting it twisted. Biscuit brought up Luck's OC. They had gave up 30 less yards a game than Chi. Amazing. We scored 1 td. We scored 2 against Chi and kicked a fg from the one. But keep hanging your hat on passing yardage. Means a ton when you can't put the ball in the end zone. Margot Robey would love being my gf. Things that are probably true but we have no possible way of knowing. I actually didn't miss the whole point of the article. Let me ask you, when was the last time you have ever seen a stat that referenced that compares a QB's efficiency on 1st down in a 1 score game before? Is that what it has come down to for the EJ fan club? And where am I taking Hackett's opinion as gospel? I've already considered him a bad OC. EJ had Jimbo Fisher in college and he still wasn't considered the best QB in a very weak QB class. But I'm sure that's somebody else's fault too. Maybe, just maybe EJ isn't that good of a QB. And maybe, just maybe, I'm going to judge him based on his on field performances and not make excuses as to why he's grossly disappointed and fell short of expectations. And maybe, just maybe, I'll evaluate him again to see what he can do with a new coaching staff. In the meantime, his body of work speaks for itself and I'm not going to pretend to be in fantasy land and think of as many reasons why he wasn't better just because my feelings have trouble accepting the reality of the situation which is EJ hasn't been any good in 2 years. The same way we have no possible way of knowing whether EJ would have been better with a different OC but it hasn't stopped people yet. Don't you just love it when your point gets made for you by someone who disagrees? They had gave up 30 less yards a game than Chi. Amazing. We scored 1 td. We scored 2 against Chi and kicked a fg from the one. But keep hanging your hat on passing yardage. Means a ton when you can't put the ball in the end zone. Like how Orton threw more TD's in 12 games than EJ has in 14? Or no? Again, 32nd defense vs 2nd defense. 193 rushing yards vs 49 rushing yards. And Orton puts up better passing numbers. And gets the W. Can't get better than that. Edited July 22, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'm not getting it twisted. Biscuit brought up Luck's OC. Don't you just love it when your point gets made for you by someone who disagrees? They had gave up 30 less yards a game than Chi. Amazing. We scored 1 td. We scored 2 against Chi and kicked a fg from the one. But keep hanging your hat on passing yardage. Means a ton when you can't put the ball in the end zone. Like how Orton threw more TD's in 12 games than EJ has in 14? Or no? Again, 32nd defense vs 2nd defense. 193 rushing yards vs 49 rushing yards. And Orton puts up better passing numbers. And gets the W. Can't get better than that. Dang Chan, I'd hope Orton would be better than EJ seeing that he has 10 years more experience. I think the basic premise of all the "EJ lovers" is that the guy showed flashes in 14 games and feel that it is too early to throw in the towel on him. Also, how funny it is that QBs like Derek Carr, Bortles, Mallett and numerous others have basically the same statistical data as EJ, yet they have upside and Manuel doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 my main takeaways from this thread: 1 - EJ is good 2 - EJ sucks Hate to break this to you, but you could be wrong. Twice. Imagine that! haha The middle ground may be where we find ourselves. It's what I'm hoping for, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Yes, there was talk of how EJ was trying too much to be everyone's buddy -- I'm sure that played into it. I think the kid learned a lot last year -- looking forward to seeing how much in a couple of weeks. And don't forget, he made it through a whole season uninjured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Dang Chan, I'd hope Orton would be better than EJ seeing that he has 10 years more experience. I think the basic premise of all the "EJ lovers" is that the guy showed flashes in 14 games and feel that it is too early to throw in the towel on him. Also, how funny it is that QBs like Derek Carr, Bortles, Mallett and numerous others have basically the same statistical data as EJ, yet they have upside and Manuel doesn't.But I'm arguing with someone who doesn't think Orton was better so... They have more upside because they haven't crashed and burned in their second year, causing their head coach to completely give up on the offense. They could, but they haven't yet. Again, I don't want to throw the towel in on EJ. I can't be any clearer. Edited July 23, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'm not getting it twisted. Biscuit brought up Luck's OC. Don't you just love it when your point gets made for you by someone who disagrees? They had gave up 30 less yards a game than Chi. Amazing. We scored 1 td. We scored 2 against Chi and kicked a fg from the one. But keep hanging your hat on passing yardage. Means a ton when you can't put the ball in the end zone. Like how Orton threw more TD's in 12 games than EJ has in 14? Or no? Again, 32nd defense vs 2nd defense. 193 rushing yards vs 49 rushing yards. And Orton puts up better passing numbers. And gets the W. Can't get better than that. Are you going to completely ignore the metrics that show playcalling between EJ Manuel and Orton were different? and Are you going to completely ignore that as each game went by Orton became more and more inaccurate with his throws to go along with complete lack of mobility? THe idea is not to settle for a certain level of Meh The idea is to see if one of our young QBs actually getting playing time and developing into something more? But I'm arguing with someone who doesn't think Orton was better so... They have more upside because they haven't crashed and burned in their second year, causing their head coach to completely give up on the offense. They could, but they haven't yet. Again, I don't want to throw the towel in on EJ. I can't be any clearer. Except your not clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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