"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[GG]

You can look in the mirror. He had 2 decent games and 2 bad ones. That really deserves to be given up for an entire season in your 2nd year? For a mediocre at best journeyman QB?

 

Again, if this was a well renowned offensive coach, it might mean something. Why should any Bills fan trust Marrone's judgment?

 

If you truly want to look in the mirror, then you have to acknowledge the sliding slope that EJ was going down since the second half of the Miami game. Houston is the game that everyone talks about, but the San Diego game was more pitiful, especially the inconsequential last red zone series. The Texans game simple sealed the inevitable, as it was becoming clear that EJ was quickly losing the confidence of his receivers.

 

it's not all about stats. EJ's game was going downhill very quickly. Whether that was his, his coaches' or players' faults is immaterial. A change needed to be made at that time.

[eball]

 

If you truly want to look in the mirror, then you have to acknowledge the sliding slope that EJ was going down since the second half of the Miami game. Houston is the game that everyone talks about, but the San Diego game was more pitiful, especially the inconsequential last red zone series. The Texans game simple sealed the inevitable, as it was becoming clear that EJ was quickly losing the confidence of his receivers.

 

it's not all about stats. EJ's game was going downhill very quickly. Whether that was his, his coaches' or players' faults is immaterial. A change needed to be made at that time.

 

Agree completely, but it's a fair question to ask why Marrone/Hackett completely changed the game plan after EJ had success in those first two games.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I want to know how Ortons dumpster fire was any different then EJ's dumpster fire

it was much worse as he is a 10+ year veteran who "knows the game" and is a winner.

 

Had EJ ever had 5 straight 3 and out possessions? or IIRC in the same game 7 - 3 and outs in 9 possessions?

 

Agree completely, but it's a fair question to ask why Marrone/Hackett completely changed the game plan after EJ had success in those first two games.

you almost had me fooled with your reply. Moron took what was working and broke it.

Edited July 22, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[metzelaars_lives]

it was much worse as he is a 10+ year veteran who "knows the game" and is a winner.

 

Had EJ ever had 5 straight 3 and out possessions? or IIRC in the same game 7 - 3 and outs in 9 possessions?

you almost had me fooled with your reply. Moron took what was working and broke it.

Ahh you're back. Still waiting for you to cite an example of me ever using a stat, let alone "every" stat, to criticize Manuel. You cite obscure stats to defend him, while all I am saying is, "he kinda looks like he sucks."

 

And excellent use of the 'Orton sucked too' Manuel defense. Well done.

Edited July 22, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[John from Riverside]

 

If you truly want to look in the mirror, then you have to acknowledge the sliding slope that EJ was going down since the second half of the Miami game. Houston is the game that everyone talks about, but the San Diego game was more pitiful, especially the inconsequential last red zone series. The Texans game simple sealed the inevitable, as it was becoming clear that EJ was quickly losing the confidence of his receivers.

 

it's not all about stats. EJ's game was going downhill very quickly. Whether that was his, his coaches' or players' faults is immaterial. A change needed to be made at that time.

I actually agree with this......I mean receivers were flat dropping catchable balls.......but you also had chemistry issues with receivers not turning round at the right time to locate balls which is a timing issue......

 

I personally thought that if they were gonna yank him after the Texans game.....I was ok with that.....but there was a 2 game spike up with Orton then his game also started flatlining.....and there was a opportunity there to bring EJ back in and see if his game didnt pick up....also giving the coaches an opportunity to get more games of evaluation out of him.

Ahh you're back. Still waiting for you to cite an example of me ever using a stat, let alone "every" stat, to criticize Manuel. You cite obscure stats to defend him, while all I am saying is, "he kinda looks like he sucks."

 

And excellent use of the 'Orton sucked too' Manuel defense. Well done.

The Orton sucked too is not a Manuel defense....it is a reality

[C.Biscuit97]

 

If you truly want to look in the mirror, then you have to acknowledge the sliding slope that EJ was going down since the second half of the Miami game. Houston is the game that everyone talks about, but the San Diego game was more pitiful, especially the inconsequential last red zone series. The Texans game simple sealed the inevitable, as it was becoming clear that EJ was quickly losing the confidence of his receivers.

 

it's not all about stats. EJ's game was going downhill very quickly. Whether that was his, his coaches' or players' faults is immaterial. A change needed to be made at that time.

That's fair. We did beat Miami with Manuel and couldn't score a td against then with Orton. Houston also was a team that made a lot of good Qbs look bad. Also, the oline and receivers played bad in that game. Yet everyone focuses on Manuel.

 

I think Manuel was developed poorly by an unqualified offensive coaching. If Marrone was more secure in his job, he would have started EJ longer. Philbin was in a similar spot with Tannehill and he let his young qb ride it out. And he improved. Perhaps EJ would have been dreadful. Or perhaps he improves. Instead, we don't know and I'm not willing to give up a qb after 14 games. Is 4 games the most games he has started in a row? How can you get any rhythm like that?

[Bangarang]

Potential is just another word for something a QB hasnt done yet.

You do realize that QBs mature at different rates?

 

Yes which is why I take Bridgewater over EJ any day of the week right now since I think he's clearly the better QB now and was coming out of college. If EJ ever develops then we'll see how he compares. I don't base my evaluations on the best case scenario if a player develops. It certainly plays a part in it but I part far much more emphasis on actual on field production and ability.

To be a fly in the room in those offensive coach meetings.....

 

EVERY SINGLE QB under the Marrone era got WORSE as time goes on.....I mean.....WTF?

 

Or maybe neither of those QBs were any good to begin with and the more film defenses had the better they could prepare?

[C.Biscuit97]

On paper, if you look at it that way, it doesn't sound unreasonable to have let him keep playing. But were you in favor of letting him play in Detroit? I didn't think anyone was at the time. There are three factors which made it a no-brainer to put in Orton. 1. We had/have a playoff caliber defense. Hey maybe if he was on the Raiders, they let him ride it out. 2. He was so bad in the offseason/preseason that his poor play did not appear to be a fluke. 3. It wasn't like he had a little hiccup. He completely imploded and lost all confidence to the point that his receivers were visibly frustrated- something I'd never seen in an NFL game before, at least not to that extent. They do not win that game in Detroit the way he was playing. It was the right move at the time. Should they have put Manuel back in later in the season when Orton started to suck too? Yes, I would have.

I was 100% in favor of EJ playing. I maybe wrong once in a blue moon but I'm consistent. I started a thread saying Marrone should be fired if we didn't make the playoffs after he benched EJ. Luckily, he weaseled out. I will always take the young qb with over the Mediorce passed around journeyman. I think Manziel was completely overrated, is a little spoiled rich douche. But the Browns would be morons to not try and give him every chance to win that job over McCown.

 

And Manuel couldn't have won the Detroit game? The one where we didn't score a td until the 4th quarter? The one where they missed 3 fgs? THe one where Orton had a chance at a GWD and went 3 and out? Then need a miraculous catch by Watkins and a long fg by Kid Rock to win it?

 

The a legend of Orton I guess. Of course, there are people who think RJ won the Titans game when the truth is he was terrible for 99% of the game.

 

Yes which is why I take Bridgewater over EJ any day of the week right now since I think he's clearly the better QB now and was coming out of college. If EJ ever develops then we'll see how he compares. I don't base my evaluations on the best case scenario if a player develops. It certainly plays a part in it but I part far much more emphasis on actual on field production and ability.

 

 

Or maybe neither of those QBs were any good to begin with and the more film defenses had the better they could prepare?

Or we had an OC: qb coach who should have never had a job in the first place except for his last name.

[Bangarang]

you use every BAD stat against EJ in his short career as a reason to dump him. Dude count your posts, you are on a crusade, you just refuse to see it.

 

How many different people are you "arguing" with? 6? 10?

 

I'm done for today. Peace out

 

Are there any good stats for EJ? Which stat doesn't have him ranked in the bottom tier for QBs?

Edited July 22, 2015 by Bangarang

[GG]

 

Agree completely, but it's a fair question to ask why Marrone/Hackett completely changed the game plan after EJ had success in those first two games.

 

We'll find that out when they write their memoirs.

 

Right now we can only guess, and my hunch is that Marrone/Hackett had zero confidence in EJ's ability to rise to the challenge when the OL started playing badly. You also had press snippets that hinted how Orton quickly took control of the huddle and the team, something that EJ was lacking. Again, it's not all about his athleticism.

[Bangarang]

Or we had an OC: qb coach who should have never had a job in the first place except for his last name.

 

Bad QBs and a bad OC doesn't make for a very good combination does it?

[FireChan]

I was 100% in favor of EJ playing. I maybe wrong once in a blue moon but I'm consistent. I started a thread saying Marrone should be fired if we didn't make the playoffs after he benched EJ. Luckily, he weaseled out. I will always take the young qb with over the Mediorce passed around journeyman. I think Manziel was completely overrated, is a little spoiled rich douche. But the Browns would be morons to not try and give him every chance to win that job over McCown.

 

And Manuel couldn't have won the Detroit game? The one where we didn't score a td until the 4th quarter? The one where they missed 3 fgs? THe one where Orton had a chance at a GWD and went 3 and out? Then need a miraculous catch by Watkins and a long fg by Kid Rock to win it?

 

The a legend of Orton I guess. Of course, there are people who think RJ won the Titans game when the truth is he was terrible for 99% of the game.

 

Or we had an OC: qb coach who should have never had a job in the first place except for his last name.

Detroit was one of the best defenses in the NFL. Kyle Orton had the same passing numbers against them as EJ dd against Chicago. The worst defense in the NFL. Also, we didn't run nearly as well against DET.

 

Every reciever praised Orton over EJ.

[GunnerBill]

I am sorry I think anyone who ranks Carr anywhere about the bottom 4 Quarterbacks in the league is in fantasy land. I have not been an EJ drum banger so Metz can't tar me with that brush. I just think Carr's reputation waaaaaaaaayyy outweighs his performance.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

Are there any good stats for EJ? Which stat doesn't have him ranked in the bottom tier for QBs?

You obviously missed the whole point of the article and just want to push your EJ sucks agenda. Great effort by you.

 

Bad QBs and a bad OC doesn't make for a very good combination does it?

You're right. Nate Hackett's opinion should be taken as gospel. Steve Young was a bad qb in TB. No young qb ever benefits from good, veteran NFL coaching.

 

Andrew luck got Bruce Arians as a rookie. EJ got Nate Hackett.

[FireChan]

You obviously missed the whole point of the article and just want to push your EJ sucks agenda. Great effort by you.

 

You're right. Nate Hackett's opinion should be taken as gospel. Steve Young was a bad qb in TB. No young qb ever benefits from good, veteran NFL coaching.

 

Andrew luck got Bruce Arians as a rookie. EJ got Nate Hackett.

Andrew Luck would've been great with Hackett as his OC.

[Mr. WEO]

The stamina of this thread is fascinating...

[C.Biscuit97]

Detroit was one of the best defenses in the NFL. Kyle Orton had the same passing numbers against them as EJ dd against Chicago. The worst defense in the NFL. Also, we didn't run nearly as well against DET.

 

Every reciever praised Orton over EJ.

They had gave up 30 less yards a game than Chi. Amazing. We scored 1 td. We scored 2 against Chi and kicked a fg from the one. But keep hanging your hat on passing yardage. Means a ton when you can't put the ball in the end zone.

Andrew Luck would've been great with Hackett as his OC.

Margot Robey would love being my gf. Things that are probably true but we have no possible way of knowing.

[Bangarang]

You obviously missed the whole point of the article and just want to push your EJ sucks agenda. Great effort by you.

 

You're right. Nate Hackett's opinion should be taken as gospel. Steve Young was a bad qb in TB. No young qb ever benefits from good, veteran NFL coaching.

 

Andrew luck got Bruce Arians as a rookie. EJ got Nate Hackett.

 

I actually didn't miss the whole point of the article. Let me ask you, when was the last time you have ever seen a stat that referenced that compares a QB's efficiency on 1st down in a 1 score game before? Is that what it has come down to for the EJ fan club?

 

And where am I taking Hackett's opinion as gospel? I've already considered him a bad OC. EJ had Jimbo Fisher in college and he still wasn't considered the best QB in a very weak QB class. But I'm sure that's somebody else's fault too. Maybe, just maybe EJ isn't that good of a QB. And maybe, just maybe, I'm going to judge him based on his on field performances and not make excuses as to why he's grossly disappointed and fell short of expectations. And maybe, just maybe, I'll evaluate him again to see what he can do with a new coaching staff. In the meantime, his body of work speaks for itself and I'm not going to pretend to be in fantasy land and think of as many reasons why he wasn't better just because my feelings have trouble accepting the reality of the situation which is EJ hasn't been any good in 2 years.

Margot Robey would love being my gf. Things that are probably true but we have no possible way of knowing.

 

The same way we have no possible way of knowing whether EJ would have been better with a different OC but it hasn't stopped people yet.

[John from Riverside]

Just as an interesting experiment I have Tedd Bridgewater up on my NFL rewind.

 

- The first pass Teddie throws is soooooo far to the back shoulder of Jennings who makes an acrobatic catch to come down with it........its amazing how good QBs look when their wide receivers help them out.

 

- The next pass he throws is far downfield and should have been intercepted (he had a decent amount of time on that throw as well)

 

- The Vikings game is totally working.....just no negative stuff....a chunk here....a chunk there

 

- Sports commentators show a snapshot of how Teddy Bridgewater was sacked 8 times in his previous game by the Lions

 

- Bridgewater is showing pretty good accuracy on screens short throw stuff

 

- End of the 1st Teddie overthrows a over the middle open reciever

 

- Jackson being carted off the field....my heart still drops every time i see it

 

- Teddie overthrows a route coming out of the backfield

 

- Teddie throws deep...not even close to the receiver

 

- Teddie scrambles......doinks a ball off the back of a bill and is intercepted by another BIll

 

(We would be crucifying him at this point)

 

- Teddie throws another pick on the vikings very next offensive possession

 

(Teddie would be horse glue at this point)

 

- Teddie throws a nice middle throw complete with a bill draped all over him

 

- Teddie nice short throw to a WR with an opportunity with RAC and scores

 

- Down goes Spiller with the shoulder ($*$*%$*)

 

This is about a halfs work of work........

 

I see some good......some bad.......I fail to see where Teddy looks great while EJ's games looked like a dumpster fire

Detroit was one of the best defenses in the NFL. Kyle Orton had the same passing numbers against them as EJ dd against Chicago. The worst defense in the NFL. Also, we didn't run nearly as well against DET.

Every reciever praised Orton over EJ.

That praise started going downhill fast as the season wore on

 

I actually didn't miss the whole point of the article. Let me ask you, when was the last time you have ever seen a stat that referenced that compares a QB's efficiency on 1st down in a 1 score game before? Is that what it has come down to for the EJ fan club?

 

And where am I taking Hackett's opinion as gospel? I've already considered him a bad OC. EJ had Jimbo Fisher in college and he still wasn't considered the best QB in a very weak QB class. But I'm sure that's somebody else's fault too. Maybe, just maybe EJ isn't that good of a QB. And maybe, just maybe, I'm going to judge him based on his on field performances and not make excuses as to why he's grossly disappointed and fell short of expectations. And maybe, just maybe, I'll evaluate him again to see what he can do with a new coaching staff. In the meantime, his body of work speaks for itself and I'm not going to pretend to be in fantasy land and think of as many reasons why he wasn't better just because my feelings have trouble accepting the reality of the situation which is EJ hasn't been any good in 2 years.

 

The same way we have no possible way of knowing whether EJ would have been better with a different OC but it hasn't stopped people yet.

It will this year

[eball]

 

We'll find that out when they write their memoirs.

 

Right now we can only guess, and my hunch is that Marrone/Hackett had zero confidence in EJ's ability to rise to the challenge when the OL started playing badly. You also had press snippets that hinted how Orton quickly took control of the huddle and the team, something that EJ was lacking. Again, it's not all about his athleticism.

 

Yes, there was talk of how EJ was trying too much to be everyone's buddy -- I'm sure that played into it. I think the kid learned a lot last year -- looking forward to seeing how much in a couple of weeks.