thebandit27 Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 OK well one is going to be their team's starting QB and is about to have a shiny new weapon in Amari Cooper to throw to this fall. His arrow is clearly pointing up. The other is going to have to beat out Matt Cassel to even get a chance to play and there is still a chance that if he has an offseason anything like last offseason, he could get cut outright. So regardless of what you think about the two guys, they are not in even remotely close to a similar place career-wise. How is where Carr is right now any different than where EJ was at the beginning of his 2nd season? They both had decent rookie years (very similar actually, though Carr threw more TDs and EJ had a better winning percentage), and they both got shiny new #4 overall picks at WR. Up until EJ's 2-game funk against SD and Houston, their career arcs are nearly identical.
FireChan Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Without knowing the offensive philosophy of the two teams........ ok? Which team had the offensive philosophy of "score TD's?"
YoloinOhio Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 Which team had the offensive philosophy of "score TD's?"i don't think the QB gets stat credit for every TD scored by the offense. Nice try though
FireChan Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 i don't think the QB gets stat credit for every TD scored by the offense. Nice try though Of course they don't. Why should the QB get credit for a hand off?
Dorkington Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 EJ should have called better plays in the redzone, duh.
metzelaars_lives Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 How is where Carr is right now any different than where EJ was at the beginning of his 2nd season? They both had decent rookie years (very similar actually, though Carr threw more TDs and EJ had a better winning percentage), and they both got shiny new #4 overall picks at WR. Up until EJ's 2-game funk against SD and Houston, their career arcs are nearly identical. OK I lied, I'm back. If Derek Carr has an offseason and preseason that is so incredibly alarmingly, shockingly, startlingly bad that the Raiders have to throw big money at a retired QB who has stated he doesn't want to play anymore on the eve of the season as an insurance policy, then and only then will they be in the same place going into their respective second seasons. You gotta admit, I won that one.
YoloinOhio Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Of course they don't. Why should the QB get credit for a hand off?i don't think they should, obviously. Which is why the "offensive philosophy" matters and individual stats are not conclusive in a vacuum. It was in reference to "I'll take the guy who threw more TDs." Maybe I would too, but not for that reason alone. The offensive philosophy of "score TDs" is surely universal but not always predicated on throwing them vs. running for them as a constant game plan. Edited July 22, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Dorkington Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 OK I lied, I'm back. If Derek Carr has an offseason and preseason that is so incredibly alarmingly, shockingly, startlingly bad that the Raiders have to throw big money at a retired QB who has stated he doesn't want to play anymore on the eve of the season as an insurance policy, then and only then will they be in the same place going into their respective second seasons. You gotta admit, I won that one.
FireChan Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 i don't think they should, obviously. Which is why the "offensive philosophy" matters and individual stats are not conclusive in a vacuum. It was in reference to "I'll take the guy who threw more TDs." Maybe I would too, but not for that reason alone. The offensive philosophy of "score TDs" is surely universal but not always predicated on throwing them vs. running for them as a constant game plan. Are you trying to tell me that the Raiders had a different offensive philosophy than "control the clock and run the ball effectively" for their rookie QB?
YoloinOhio Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Are you trying to tell me that the Raiders had a different offensive philosophy than "control the clock and run the ball effectively" for their rookie QB?sorry - I'm not trying to tell anyone anything about their offensive philosophy. I have no idea what it was. They could not, however, run the ball effectively most of the season. Their running game was ranked last in the league overall and averaged 77.5 rushing yards/game. Edited July 22, 2015 by YoloinOhio
thebandit27 Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 OK I lied, I'm back. If Derek Carr has an offseason and preseason that is so incredibly alarmingly, shockingly, startlingly bad that the Raiders have to throw big money at a retired QB who has stated he doesn't want to play anymore on the eve of the season as an insurance policy, then and only then will they be in the same place going into their respective second seasons. You gotta admit, I won that one. The discussion isn't a win/lose to me. I'm speaking only of performance on the field that counts. No doubt Manuel struggled last offseason, yet when the games began to matter, he actually played well the first 2 games. Point being that--at this point last offseason, EJ was the unquestioned starter coming off of a decent rookie campaign, just as Carr is now. Though I suppose if we were volleying for points, I might point out that the Raiders did indeed go out and spend $2.25M/year on Christian Ponder, who is the team's highest paid QB. And anyway, I'm mostly with you on EJ in that it's not likely he becomes a franchise guy. I simply give it more of a chance of happening than you do (call it 25%).
GG Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Point being that--at this point last offseason, EJ was the unquestioned starter coming off of a decent rookie campaign, just as Carr is now. I'd quibble with that. I think that in the eyes of the personnel department/Whaley, EJ was the unquestioned starter. I doubt that he was the unquestioned starter in the eyes of the coaching staff. i think that there's ample evidence now to support that Whaley ignoring the QB position last spring set off the feud between him & Marrone. It's clear that Marrone was not a big EJ fan. I don't think that Carr has the same doubts from his head coach heading into the season.
Dorkington Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 The discussion isn't a win/lose to me. I'm speaking only of performance on the field that counts. No doubt Manuel struggled last offseason, yet when the games began to matter, he actually played well the first 2 games. Point being that--at this point last offseason, EJ was the unquestioned starter coming off of a decent rookie campaign, just as Carr is now. Though I suppose if we were volleying for points, I might point out that the Raiders did indeed go out and spend $2.25M/year on Christian Ponder, who is the team's highest paid QB. And anyway, I'm mostly with you on EJ in that it's not likely he becomes a franchise guy. I simply give it more of a chance of happening than you do (call it 25%). When the Bills did similar, in signing Orton, it was a "desperation move" to get away from EJ.
thebandit27 Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 I'd quibble with that. I think that in the eyes of the personnel department/Whaley, EJ was the unquestioned starter. I doubt that he was the unquestioned starter in the eyes of the coaching staff. i think that there's ample evidence now to support that Whaley ignoring the QB position last spring set off the feud between him & Marrone. It's clear that Marrone was not a big EJ fan. I don't think that Carr has the same doubts from his head coach heading into the season. Perhaps he doesn't...now, whether or not he should is another matter IMO. Mutually exclusive from the EJ discussion is the topic of whether or not Carr should have his coach's unquestioned confidence as a starter; my opinion is that I wouldn't be very comfortable with him as my only option. When the Bills did similar, in signing Orton, it was a "desperation move" to get away from EJ. It was desperation without question. Moreso to cover their rear ends for not bringing in a better second option sooner than it was to get away from EJ.
Dorkington Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Perhaps he doesn't...now, whether or not he should is another matter IMO. Mutually exclusive from the EJ discussion is the topic of whether or not Carr should have his coach's unquestioned confidence as a starter; my opinion is that I wouldn't be very comfortable with him as my only option. It was desperation without question. Moreso to cover their rear ends for not bringing in a better second option sooner than it was to get away from EJ. Meh, they had Kolb the first season, who's brain turned to jelly late in pre-season. Second year, they put an offer in to KO early, but KO sat on offers until late in pre-season to make the right decision for himself. I wouldn't call either a desperation move, personally. Desperate would have been trying to sign Brett Favre a few weeks into the season or something
Solomon Grundy Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Meh, they had Kolb the first season, who's brain turned to jelly late in pre-season. Second year, they put an offer in to KO early, but KO sat on offers until late in pre-season to make the right decision for himself. I wouldn't call either a desperation move, personally. Desperate would have been trying to sign Brett Favre a few weeks into the season or something Brett says he can still play and can help a team!!
thebandit27 Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Meh, they had Kolb the first season, who's brain turned to jelly late in pre-season. Second year, they put an offer in to KO early, but KO sat on offers until late in pre-season to make the right decision for himself. I wouldn't call either a desperation move, personally. Desperate would have been trying to sign Brett Favre a few weeks into the season or something I suppose that's a worthy debate...I'd say, based on the amount that they ended up paying Orton, that it certainly appeared desperate.
John from Riverside Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Which team had the offensive philosophy of "score TD's?" Do you really think it is as simple as this?
Dorkington Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 I suppose that's a worthy debate...I'd say, based on the amount that they ended up paying Orton, that it certainly appeared desperate. Think we can pump 27 pages out discussing it?
FireChan Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Do you really think it is as simple as this? I think it's not as complicated as you try to make it seem.
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