"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[Dorkington]

 

QB 1:

GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	FUM	QBR	RAT
15	256	437	58.6	2,810	6.43	16	80	12	4	--	78.5

GP	ATT	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FD	FUM	LST
15	69	238	3.4	19	3	16	3	0

QB 2:

GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	FUM	QBR	RAT
16	348	599	58.1	3,270	5.46	21	77	12	4	--	76.6

GP	ATT	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FD	FUM	LST
16	29	92	3.2	41	0	10	6	2

 

 

All I know is one of those two SUCKS!

One SUCKS, and the other is a promising young QB raked 20th in the league by experts.

[thebandit27]

No I meant David. He's making a comeback.

 

Derek Carr on the other hand, was ranked 20th yesterday among NFL QB's by ESPN Insiders. They had Matt Cassel ranked 31st. EJ Manuel was ranked N/A because ESPN Insiders were assuming that he would lose out on the job to Matt Cassel. Is Derek Carr ranked a little high? OK fine. But guys, again, only on this thread would someone saying, "I don't know, I think I'd take EJ Manuel over Derek Carr" be considered a rational thought. Do you really think if you were a Raiders fan and you just saw Derek Carr throw for 21 TD's as a rookie to freaking James Jones and God knows who (we love the Marrone excuse on TBD but would never consider who Derek Carr and Teddy Bridgewater were actually throwing the ball to) that you would be like, "I don't know guys, I really like this Manuel kid in Buffalo... I mean, I know he was so God awful all of last year that he was strongly rumored to get cut and he wasn't even that good in college, but I'm tellin ya, he was misused by his coach and he's got this magical upside..." You guys are living in fantasy land.

 

I don't know if you're including me in "fantasy land", but what I said was that I consider them to both be in the same place career-wise:

 

 

 

Assuming you mean Derek...he was actually not very good.

 

His rookie numbers are actually behind EJ's in nearly every category, though he did have a better TD/INT ratio. I would say they are basically in the same spot: showed some good things as rookies, not nearly good enough to be considered franchise at this point, and have quite a ways to go before their respective teams can rest easy at the QB position.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

One SUCKS, and the other is a promising young QB raked 20th in the league by experts.

Haha. Also see last year's draft. Manuel & Bortles had essentially the same stats & physical measurements (EJ was better in more categories) while Manuel played in a better conference. But clearly, Bortles was a consensus top 5 pick while EJ was a huge reach.

 

Nice charts. How do you create that voodoo?

Edited July 22, 2015 by C.Biscuit97

[FireChan]

 

QB 1:

GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	FUM	QBR	RAT
15	256	437	58.6	2,810	6.43	16	80	12	4	--	78.5

GP	ATT	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FD	FUM	LST
15	69	238	3.4	19	3	16	3	0

QB 2:

GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	FUM	QBR	RAT
16	348	599	58.1	3,270	5.46	21	77	12	4	--	76.6

GP	ATT	YDS	AVG	LNG	TD	FD	FUM	LST
16	29	92	3.2	41	0	10	6	2

I'll take the QB who threw more TD's in his rookie year than the other QB threw in 2 years.

[GG]

No I meant David. He's making a comeback.

 

Derek Carr on the other hand, was ranked 20th yesterday among NFL QB's by ESPN Insiders. They had Matt Cassel ranked 31st. EJ Manuel was ranked N/A because ESPN Insiders were assuming that he would lose out on the job to Matt Cassel. Is Derek Carr ranked a little high? OK fine. But guys, again, only on this thread would someone saying, "I don't know, I think I'd take EJ Manuel over Derek Carr" be considered a rational thought. Do you really think if you were a Raiders fan and you just saw Derek Carr throw for 21 TD's as a rookie to freaking James Jones and God knows who (we love the Marrone excuse on TBD but would never consider who Derek Carr and Teddy Bridgewater were actually throwing the ball to) that you would be like, "I don't know guys, I really like this Manuel kid in Buffalo... I mean, I know he was so God awful all of last year that he was strongly rumored to get cut and he wasn't even that good in college, but I'm tellin ya, he was misused by his coach and he's got this magical upside..." You guys are living in fantasy land.

 

Save your breath. This topic has been beaten to death with no conclusion. Until EJ wins or loses the job outright, the debate will continue on this board. Although I have a suspicion that even if EJ loses the job in camp this year, there will still be excuses that he wasn't given a fair shake.

 

But you are correct, I doubt there's a single GM right now who'd trade EJ for Carr or Bridgewater, straight up.

[John from Riverside]

I'll take the QB who threw more TD's in his rookie year than the other QB threw in 2 years.

Without knowing the offensive philosophy of the two teams........

 

ok?

[Dorkington]

I'll take the QB who threw more TD's in his rookie year than the other QB threw in 2 years.

Personally I'm fine with either QB, they both show promise for being in difficult to develop situations.

 

Save your breath. This topic has been beaten to death with no conclusion. Until EJ wins or loses the job outright, the debate will continue on this board. Although I have a suspicion that even if EJ loses the job in camp this year, there will still be excuses that he wasn't given a fair shake.

 

But you are correct, I doubt there's a single GM right now who'd trade EJ for Carr or Bridgewater, straight up.

I think at this point, if he doesn't win the job, EJ is basically done. Which is a shame, because he's got a good head on his shoulders and a good physical makeup. He, like many promising QBs, are part of a group that greatly depends on decent development if they are going to make it in the NFL. Its rare that a QB is so talented that they just do great regardless of the coaching and talent around them.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

Save your breath. This topic has been beaten to death with no conclusion. Until EJ wins or loses the job outright, the debate will continue on this board. Although I have a suspicion that even if EJ loses the job in camp this year, there will still be excuses that he wasn't given a fair shake.

 

But you are correct, I doubt there's a single GM right now who'd trade EJ for Carr or Bridgewater, straight up.

This Carr hype is unreal. He wasn't good at all. He was worse than EJ as a rookie in most categories.

 

Of course right now, EJ's value is down. Where was Alex Smith's value before Harbaugh/ Roman? Then he got traded for 2 2nd rounders. Things can change.

 

And is there one GM that would trade Norv Turner for Nate Hackett?

 

Honest question: would EJ be a better qb if he had Turner his first 2 years instead of Hackett? Because I don't think there's a question he would be.

[metzelaars_lives]

 

I don't know if you're including me in "fantasy land", but what I said was that I consider them to both be in the same place career-wise:

 

 

OK well one is going to be their team's starting QB and is about to have a shiny new weapon in Amari Cooper to throw to this fall. His arrow is clearly pointing up. The other is going to have to beat out Matt Cassel to even get a chance to play and there is still a chance that if he has an offseason anything like last offseason, he could get cut outright. So regardless of what you think about the two guys, they are not in even remotely close to a similar place career-wise.

[1billsfan]

Haha. Also see last year's draft. Manuel & Bortles had essentially the same stats & physical measurements (EJ was better in more categories) while Manuel played in a better conference. But clearly, Bortles was a consensus top 5 pick while EJ was a huge reach.

 

Nice charts. How do you create that voodoo?

 

It's crazy how a narrative could be so different in the court of public opinion, yet real stats tell the story that the players are essentially at or near the same level.

 

I seriously can't remember a time and place where an NFL player had a better opportunity to shove it in the vast majority's faces of the people who think he sucks than EJ Manuel has in front of him right now.

[C.Biscuit97]

Personally I'm fine with either QB, they both show promise for being in difficult to develop situations.

 

I think at this point, if he doesn't win the job, EJ is basically done. Which is a shame, because he's got a good head on his shoulders and a good physical makeup. He, like many promising QBs, are part of a group that greatly depends on decent development if they are going to make it in the NFL. Its rare that a QB is so talented that they just do great regardless of the coaching and talent around them.

Agreed. EJ would get another job if he is cut though.

[metzelaars_lives]

This Carr hype is unreal. He wasn't good at all. He was worse than EJ as a rookie in most categories.

 

Of course right now, EJ's value is down. Where was Alex Smith's value before Harbaugh/ Roman? Then he got traded for 2 2nd rounders. Things can change.

 

And is there one GM that would trade Norv Turner for Nate Hackett?

 

Honest question: would EJ be a better qb if he had Turner his first 2 years instead of Hackett? Because I don't think there's a question he would be.

Would Derek Carr have looked better last year if he had Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods to throw to? Again, I love how EJ Manuel is the only QB in the NFL at a disadvantage and every other QB is on the same level playing field. You guys are unbelievable.

[Dorkington]

Agreed. EJ would get another job if he is cut though.

Oh definitely. By "done", I mean he'd be in the group of backup QBs in the league that don't really get a chance at being starter again until there's an injury. I don't think EJ will be cut if he doesn't win the starting job... it doesn't really make sense from a financial point of view, if I remember correctly.

[metzelaars_lives]

 

It's crazy how a narrative could be so different in the court of public opinion, yet real stats tell the story that the players are essentially at or near the same level.

 

I seriously can't remember a time and place where an NFL player had a better opportunity to shove it in the vast majority's faces of the people who think he sucks than EJ Manuel has in front of him right now.

Agreed.

[Dorkington]

Would Derek Carr have looked better last year if he had Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods to throw to? Again, I love how EJ Manuel is the only QB in the NFL at a disadvantage and every other QB is on the same level playing field. You guys are unbelievable.

?

 

Both EJ and Carr were on pretty incompetent offensive squads, and performed similarly... is there anyone saying different? O.o

[FireChan]

?

 

Both EJ and Carr were on pretty incompetent offensive squads, and performed similarly... is there anyone saying different? O.o

Oakland was much worse than Buffalo. In every category.

[YoloinOhio]

?

 

Both EJ and Carr were on pretty incompetent offensive squads, and performed similarly... is there anyone saying different? O.o

i don't think Carr's coach was that incompetent. His QB coach got promoted to OC in Cleveland. Must be pretty good.

[C.Biscuit97]

Would Derek Carr have looked better last year if he had Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods to throw to? Again, I love how EJ Manuel is the only QB in the NFL at a disadvantage and every other QB is on the same level playing field. You guys are unbelievable.

Um, Manuel only had Watkins for 4 games in his career. In one of the best starts of his career against our new coach, Manuel threw 3 tds with Goodwin and Graham as his starting Wrs.

 

It's just so funny fans' perspectives. Carr has almost a yard less ypa than Captain Checkdown and he is obviously better than our young qb. Less than 6 ypa is beyond awful.

 

For some reason, I feel a lot of the biggest Manuel badgers were Johnny Manziel fans.

Edited July 22, 2015 by C.Biscuit97

[Dorkington]

i don't think Carr's coach was that incompetent. His QB coach got promoted to OC in Cleveland. Must be pretty good.

No, but he has a lack of talent surrounding him in certain positions. The way I see it... EJ's coaching was worse, but had better positional talent... Carr's coaching was better, but had worse positional talent.

 

Though, admittedly, I'm no expert on the Raiders haha

[metzelaars_lives]

?

 

Both EJ and Carr were on pretty incompetent offensive squads, and performed similarly... is there anyone saying different? O.o

Yes I am. EJ Manuel had Watkins, Woods and Williams played in all four games Manuel played as well as a healthy Spiller and Jackson. The o-line sucked for him for the most part. But again, you only count the play calling and the o-line but don't look at the fact that he had above average weapons at his disposal. Did anyone have less competent RB and WR weapons at their disposal last year than Derek Carr? Something tells me that a good QB makes it work with the weapons the Bills had last year.

 

Alright I'm done. You win. Talk to you guys next week once the pads come on.