"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[thewildrabbit]

Few things. Don't disagree with most of what you wrote. But Thad Lewis was not a rookie in 2013. And also, as I have stated before, Doug Marrone quit because he refused to fire the bulk of his coaching staff. So one way or another we would not have gotten Marrone along with his full complement of coaches again in 2015. And as far as you know who, I don't mind giving him a little bit more of a leash. But there have been QB's who have shown more development in less time than he has been given. Teddy Bridgewater and David Carr being the two most recent examples. But anyway.

Lewis was with the Rams / Browns / Lions before joining the Buffalo Bills, and he did have a singular game start for Cleveland in all that time. So forgive me if I don't think of him as a veteran QB in bringing much needed NFL QB experience with him to that 2013 roster of newbie QB's. Bad wording on my part.

 

As far as Marrone is concerned do you have a link to anything relevant concerning talk about him dumping anyone on his coaching staff. Because even recently I've read that Marrone doesn't believe he quit on the Bills, but rather he "opted out" and gained four million dollars as per the clause in his contract! (While I'm grateful for that clause it seems highly moronic to give something like that to a rookie HC)

 

You mention two QB's who appear to have legitimate NFL coaches on their staff. I'd say Vikes OC Norv Turner qualifies, and Raiders OC Greg Olsen had been an NFL OC for seven season before 2014. Was EJ supposed to learn the NFL ropes by osmosis?

[John from Riverside]

Few things. Don't disagree with most of what you wrote. But Thad Lewis was not a rookie in 2013. And also, as I have stated before, Doug Marrone quit because he refused to fire the bulk of his coaching staff. So one way or another we would not have gotten Marrone along with his full complement of coaches again in 2015. And as far as you know who, I don't mind giving him a little bit more of a leash. But there have been QB's who have shown more development in less time than he has been given. Teddy Bridgewater and David Carr being the two most recent examples. But anyway.

Teddy Bridgewater? Really?

[metzelaars_lives]

Teddy Bridgewater? Really?

Yes, of course. If you were to poll non-Bills fans across the country who they would rather have as their QB, Bridgewater or Manuel, literally more than 99% of them would say Bridgewater. Guys, are some of you really trapped in this much of a Bills bubble??

 

Not that it matters because they're all hacks and haters but ESPN Insider ranks Bridgewater 23rd, Matt Cassel 31st and EJ Manuel N/A because they apparently have him losing the job to Matt Cassel. So yes, really.

Lewis was with the Rams / Browns / Lions before joining the Buffalo Bills, and he did have a singular game start for Cleveland in all that time. So forgive me if I don't think of him as a veteran QB in bringing much needed NFL QB experience with him to that 2013 roster of newbie QB's. Bad wording on my part.

 

As far as Marrone is concerned do you have a link to anything relevant concerning talk about him dumping anyone on his coaching staff. Because even recently I've read that Marrone doesn't believe he quit on the Bills, but rather he "opted out" and gained four million dollars as per the clause in his contract! (While I'm grateful for that clause it seems highly moronic to give something like that to a rookie HC)

 

You mention two QB's who appear to have legitimate NFL coaches on their staff. I'd say Vikes OC Norv Turner qualifies, and Raiders OC Greg Olsen had been an NFL OC for seven season before 2014. Was EJ supposed to learn the NFL ropes by osmosis?

The source who told me that Marrone left because he refused to fire most of his staff is the same source who gave me Mario Williams visiting the Bills, which I broke on this website before anyone else, let alone the national media. It is a direct source from the team. Haven't had to invoke that one in a while.

 

And if Lewis was in fact a pseudo rookie in 2013, we should have held onto him longer because he looked every bit as good (his statistics are better pretty much across the board) as Manuel did that season. In all sincerity, I am perfectly fine with them moving on from Thad Lewis and I am happy that Manuel is still competing for the job but that is true.

Edited July 21, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[johnwalter]

Teddy Bridgewater? Really?

 

Teddy Bridgewater had quite a good rookie season.

[thewildrabbit]

I agree with a lot of this. One thing to note about David Lee though, Fitz was what we all knew he was. He was a smart guy with a mediocre arm.

 

Lee publicly criticised Geno for his inability to be consistent which I think was likely Geno reverting to his old ways. Unfortunately, I don't know if Geno looked better or worse playing the way Lee coached him.

 

And thus far, reports of ejs footwork and mechanics have been said to be greatly improved. (I remember reading one and hearing one but might have been the same source)

 

That being said, I do still have concerns like you but I'm not going to blame all the problems under Lee on Lee.

Geno went 3-10 with 13 TD's vs 13 INT's with a QBR of 35.43 with a rating of 77.5 last year. After watching Geno play against Buffalo last season he looked like he regressed badly in Mornhinweg's same offense, and with Lee as his new QB coach. Both Lee and Ryan stated they thought it was on Geno because of his inconsistent play.

 

But then Geno did throw 21 INT's vs 12 TD's in his rookie season, and this kid was supposedly rated above EJ as the #1 QB in the 2013 draft. God forbid EJ has a season like that.

[The Wiz]

Yes, of course. If you were to poll non-Bills fans across the country who they would rather have as their QB, Bridgewater or Manuel, literally more than 99% of them would say Bridgewater. Guys, are some of you really trapped in this much of a Bills bubble??

 

Not that it matters because they're all hacks and haters but ESPN Insider ranks Bridgewater 23rd, Matt Cassel 31st and EJ Manuel N/A because they apparently have him losing the job to Matt Cassel. So yes, really.

The source who told me that Marrone left because he refused to fire most of his staff is the same source who gave me Mario Williams visiting the Bills, which I broke on this website before anyone else, let alone the national media. It is a direct source from the team. Haven't had to invoke that one in a while.

 

And if Lewis was in fact a pseudo rookie in 2013, we should have held onto him longer because he looked every bit as good (his statistics are better pretty much across the board) as Manuel did that season. In all sincerity, I am perfectly fine with them moving on from Thad Lewis and I am happy that Manuel is still competing for the job but that is true.

Sorry Metz but kinda need to "poke the bear" on this one. So if Lewis was better after playing, I think it was 3 games total, after being in the league for 3 years and you think they should have held onto him longer becuase he looked every bit as good (or better stats wise than a rookie) then why are you saying that you don't think that Manuel can end up improving or as you put it "develop into a franchise QB" when he hasn't completed a full season yet?

 

Again, I know your stance on Manuel at this point is open-minded and level headed but just wanted some clarity.

 

 

EDIT: Well that ended up being a post count padder. Sorry Metz, I see that you said you think it's possible for EJ to develop into a franchise QB.

"I think it's possible that he does develop into our franchise QB"

Edited July 21, 2015 by The Wiz

[metzelaars_lives]

Sorry Metz but kinda need to "poke the bear" on this one. So if Lewis was better after playing, I think it was 3 games total, after being in the league for 3 years and you think they should have held onto him longer becuase he looked every bit as good (or better stats wise than a rookie) then why are you saying that you don't think that Manuel can end up improving or as you put it "develop into a franchise QB" when he hasn't completed a full season yet?

 

Again, I know your stance on Manuel at this point is open-minded and level headed but just wanted some clarity.

Ha. I don't really think they should have held onto Lewis. I thought that was pretty clear. He imploded in the 2014 offseason just like Manuel. To cite coaching there is not incredibly far-fetched. I was just pointing out that they were about the same in 2013 and neither of them had NFL experience. And for the record, neither of them were even that bad. Does EJ Manuel have more upside than Thad Lewis? Sure, of course. My issue with Manuel was his startling regression throughout the entire calendar year of 2014- not just the one play where JJ Watt intercepted him.

Edited July 21, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[The Wiz]

Ha. I don't really think they should have held onto Lewis. I thought that was pretty clear. He imploded in the 2014 offseason just like Manuel. To cite coaching there is not incredibly far-fetched. I was just pointing out that they were about the same in 2013 and neither of them had NFL experience. And for the record, neither of them were even that bad. Does EJ Manuel have more upside than Thad Lewis? Sure, of course. My issue with Manuel was his startling regression throughout the entire calendar year of 2014- not just the one play where JJ Watt intercepted him.

I understand Tc and preseason but what regressions am I missing from the bears and dolphins game?

 

The SD game they were stunt blitzing almost every other play and the line has no answer so Houston followed in the game planning and were successful.

 

Honestly, can you blame someone for having happy feet or being gun shy after getting hit/rushed as much as he did in those two games?

 

I was all for the change in qb after the Houston game but honestly think it didn't matter who the qb was. Yes, the oline/marrone excuse if you will.

Edited July 22, 2015 by The Wiz

[thewildrabbit]

Yes, of course. If you were to poll non-Bills fans across the country who they would rather have as their QB, Bridgewater or Manuel, literally more than 99% of them would say Bridgewater. Guys, are some of you really trapped in this much of a Bills bubble??

 

Not that it matters because they're all hacks and haters but ESPN Insider ranks Bridgewater 23rd, Matt Cassel 31st and EJ Manuel N/A because they apparently have him losing the job to Matt Cassel. So yes, really.

The source who told me that Marrone left because he refused to fire most of his staff is the same source who gave me Mario Williams visiting the Bills, which I broke on this website before anyone else, let alone the national media. It is a direct source from the team. Haven't had to invoke that one in a while.

 

And if Lewis was in fact a pseudo rookie in 2013, we should have held onto him longer because he looked every bit as good (his statistics are better pretty much across the board) as Manuel did that season. In all sincerity, I am perfectly fine with them moving on from Thad Lewis and I am happy that Manuel is still competing for the job but that is true.

While you might just have some inside info on the Marrone departure I never read anything even remotely close to that, and in fact I seem to recall that Saint Doug had asked for a raise for him and his staff and both were approved.

 

From what I read after Orton quit, and with no QB, no first round pick Marrone went to Pegula with a list of demands, and the pay raises for him and his offensive staff were granted. He was also negotiating for an extension for his four year deal, and that was also granted. While the demand for more power over the roster, and a diminished role for Whaley were not. From my view I can see why Marrone opted out if he was going to be handcuffed from a personnel standpoint. Just think, here we are in year three of Whaley and we still don't know if Levitre has been adequately replaced or not. Last years O line was the worst its been in years, and was the weakest area of the team by far. Marginal upgrades rather then the studs at OT & OG Whaley first opted to obtain.

 

Losing Marrone also cost the team Bill Polian as team czar / consultant, and who knows what impact / changes he would have made this year.

 

 

My take on not keeping Lewis was because of his him not progressing as well as they expected, and he was somewhat limited in his stature at 6', 200 lbs. Not exactly the prototype build for an NFL QB.

 

Lastly, go back and look as EJ went 4-6 with 11 TD's vs 9 INT's, and 2-2 with 5 TD's vs 3 Int's, and that's with known complete bozo's running the offense. Not so bad in my view considering who was coaching him. Just imagine if EJ had a season with stats like either one of Geno Smiths seasons. Can you say crucify?

[Doc]

While you might just have some inside info on the Marrone departure I never read anything even remotely close to that, and in fact I seem to recall that Saint Doug had asked for a raise for him and his staff and both were approved.

 

From what I read after Orton quit, and with no QB, no first round pick Marrone went to Pegula with a list of demands, and the pay raises for him and his offensive staff were granted. He was also negotiating for an extension for his four year deal, and that was also granted. While the demand for more power over the roster, and a diminished role for Whaley were not. From my view I can see why Marrone opted out if he was going to be handcuffed from a personnel standpoint. Just think, here we are in year three of Whaley and we still don't know if Levitre has been adequately replaced or not. Last years O line was the worst its been in years, and was the weakest area of the team by far. Marginal upgrades rather then the studs at OT & OG Whaley first opted to obtain.

 

Losing Marrone also cost the team Bill Polian as team czar / consultant, and who knows what impact / changes he would have made this year.

 

 

My take on not keeping Lewis was because of his him not progressing as well as they expected, and he was somewhat limited in his stature at 6', 200 lbs. Not exactly the prototype build for an NFL QB.

 

Lastly, go back and look as EJ went 4-6 with 11 TD's vs 9 INT's, and 2-2 with 5 TD's vs 3 Int's, and that's with known complete bozo's running the offense. Not so bad in my view considering who was coaching him. Just imagine if EJ had a season with stats like either one of Geno Smiths seasons. Can you say crucify?

I heard rumblings of an extension for Marrone being approved, but not for some or all of his assistants, like Hackett. And sorry but he didn't do anything to deserve control over personnel so that request denial was wholly appropriate, and if that's what got him to quit, great.

[metzelaars_lives]

While you might just have some inside info on the Marrone departure I never read anything even remotely close to that, and in fact I seem to recall that Saint Doug had asked for a raise for him and his staff and both were approved.

 

From what I read after Orton quit, and with no QB, no first round pick Marrone went to Pegula with a list of demands, and the pay raises for him and his offensive staff were granted. He was also negotiating for an extension for his four year deal, and that was also granted. While the demand for more power over the roster, and a diminished role for Whaley were not. From my view I can see why Marrone opted out if he was going to be handcuffed from a personnel standpoint. Just think, here we are in year three of Whaley and we still don't know if Levitre has been adequately replaced or not. Last years O line was the worst its been in years, and was the weakest area of the team by far. Marginal upgrades rather then the studs at OT & OG Whaley first opted to obtain.

 

Losing Marrone also cost the team Bill Polian as team czar / consultant, and who knows what impact / changes he would have made this year.

 

 

My take on not keeping Lewis was because of his him not progressing as well as they expected, and he was somewhat limited in his stature at 6', 200 lbs. Not exactly the prototype build for an NFL QB.

 

Lastly, go back and look as EJ went 4-6 with 11 TD's vs 9 INT's, and 2-2 with 5 TD's vs 3 Int's, and that's with known complete bozo's running the offense. Not so bad in my view considering who was coaching him. Just imagine if EJ had a season with stats like either one of Geno Smiths seasons. Can you say crucify?

You really think Nathaniel Hackett was in line for a raise? Come on man, try and think about that for a second. What scenario seems more likely? You can take it for what it's worth but I can assure you of how it went down.

[Coach Tuesday]

Let it die Metz. It's suffering and in a lot of pain. Let her go.

[metzelaars_lives]

Let it die Metz. It's suffering and in a lot of pain. Let her go.

Good call.

[The Wiz]

You really think Nathaniel Hackett was in line for a raise? Come on man, try and think about that for a second. What scenario seems more likely? You can take it for what it's worth but I can assure you of how it went down.

I think still think Hackett got a raw deal with Marrone taking out plays (Fred's words, not mine) but still need to give credit to Marrone for getting his boy a job with the Jags. Even though it will likely end up bad for the oline and QB.

Edited July 22, 2015 by The Wiz

[buffaloaggie]

Also, I don't have ESPN Insider. Can someone tell me where they had Manuel ranked?

31st - Bills were only ahead of the Jets QB carousel

[YoloinOhio]

31st - Bills were only ahead of the Jets QB carousel

actually I thought Cassel was ranked 31st. I didn't see the article but they were talking it about it on the radio here.

[John from Riverside]

Yes, of course. If you were to poll non-Bills fans across the country who they would rather have as their QB, Bridgewater or Manuel, literally more than 99% of them would say Bridgewater. Guys, are some of you really trapped in this much of a Bills bubble??

 

Not that it matters because they're all hacks and haters but ESPN Insider ranks Bridgewater 23rd, Matt Cassel 31st and EJ Manuel N/A because they apparently have him losing the job to Matt Cassel. So yes, really.

The source who told me that Marrone left because he refused to fire most of his staff is the same source who gave me Mario Williams visiting the Bills, which I broke on this website before anyone else, let alone the national media. It is a direct source from the team. Haven't had to invoke that one in a while.

 

And if Lewis was in fact a pseudo rookie in 2013, we should have held onto him longer because he looked every bit as good (his statistics are better pretty much across the board) as Manuel did that season. In all sincerity, I am perfectly fine with them moving on from Thad Lewis and I am happy that Manuel is still competing for the job but that is true.

The reason why I bring up Bridgewaterfen

 

- Our very own Matt Cassell was outplaying Bridgewater and got the starting nod.....then Cassel got hurt

- Bridgewater DID in fact have an excellent rookie season......a injury free......rookie season in which both Cassel and Bridgewater looked good in that offense

 

Meanwhile

 

- EVERY FRIGGEN QB that has rolled through under the Marrone era coaches has either looked bad.....or started off looking good and started looking bad as time went on

 

- Ted Bridgewater actually has more starts then EJ Manuel even though Teddie was rookie

 

See where I am going with this? The situations are different. How do we know that EJ Manuel was a viking instead of a bill that he would not be having more success as a QB?

[The Wiz]

 

Teddy Bridgewater had quite a good rookie season.

Not to discredit his rookie season, but did he win against a team that was over .500? That's kind of the big thing against EJ with some people so was just putting it out there.

Edited July 22, 2015 by The Wiz

[YoloinOhio]

Not to discredit his rookie season, but did he win against a team that was over .500? That's kind of the big thing against EJ with some people so was just putting it out there.

no, he didn't

[FireChan]

The reason why I bring up Bridgewaterfen

 

- Our very own Matt Cassell was outplaying Bridgewater and got the starting nod.....then Cassel got hurt

- Bridgewater DID in fact have an excellent rookie season......a injury free......rookie season in which both Cassel and Bridgewater looked good in that offense

 

Meanwhile

 

- EVERY FRIGGEN QB that has rolled through under the Marrone era coaches has either looked bad.....or started off looking good and started looking bad as time went on

 

- Ted Bridgewater actually has more starts then EJ Manuel even though Teddie was rookie

 

See where I am going with this? The situations are different. How do we know that EJ Manuel was a viking instead of a bill that he would not be having more success as a QB?

Maybe because EJ has better recievers and a top ten defense?

 

How do we know if EJ was a Pat and Tom Brady was a Bill he wouldn't be having more success?

 

Even if you want to argue that EJ stinking in games was because of the offense/Marrone, that doesn't account him stinking in practice.

Edited July 22, 2015 by FireChan