"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[Thurmal34]

That being said, do you think it's OK for someone to say, if I had to guess if it's going to work out for him, I would guess yes or no?

You bet! All I'm saying is when you draft a QB, particularly a developmental one, you have to let him fail in order for him to get better. Holds true in any profession.

[metzelaars_lives]

You don't think it's easier to form an opinion on a guy whose sample size is over twice as large as the other's?

I suppose that's fair. Then again, Manuel has the exact same sample size as one Tim Tebow (besides his playoff win of course) and the league seems to have formed an opinion on him. Again, people love to point to the 14 games as being his only sample size but no one ever wants to talk about his dumpster fire of a 2014 offseason/preseason. Coaches and teams (and so too should fans) form many of their opinions on players in camp, practice and the preseason. It's where guys not named Dareus, Mario Williams and Sammy Watkins have to go out and earn their job. It's why guys like Tim Tebow have found themselves out of a job altogether. Here's to hoping Manuel's 2015 offseason goes a lot smoother than last year.

Edited July 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[John from Riverside]

This is getting ridiculously exhausting. How many ways can I say this? I am a Bills fan. I love the Bills more than is probably healthy. I am starving for good QB play. If it's EJ, great! That would be fantastic. From what I've seen however, I think it is less than likely that he develops into our franchise QB. I have no ulterior motives here guys. And I haven't given up on him. I just don't think it's probable. And guess what? Only two other people have had the balls to say that he will probably be our clear cut opening day starter in 2017. So evidently, everyone else agrees with me except the LB get ball guy and you know who.

 

Let me try this: What did you guys think of Bryce Brown last year? Pretty costly fumble against Kansas City huh? Couldn't get much going against the Jets or the Dolphins, right? Aha!! You HATE him. You have given up on him. You have labeled him a bust. You are telling everyone that there is no chance he ever develops into a reliable starting RB in this league. You are rooting against him. You have a predisposition against him and will be lining up with a proverbial pitchfork if he ever misses a hole.

 

OR do you recognize he has some great tools but he needs to get his head right and put it together? Is it fair to say that if Bryce Brown turns into a stud this year and runs wild if McCoy gets hurt that that you would be happy? Like you wouldn't root against him, right? But is it also fair to say that you kind of don't see that happening? You sure now? You sure you don't hate him? Do you want to pull out any statistics about how he ran really well behind the right guard on second down in the third quarter last year to prove to me that he's actually already quite good and I'm a jerk for even being skeptical about him? You still have the Marrone card ya know. Or you can tell me that Adrian Peterson and Jamal Charles have had bad games too.

 

Any of this registering?

 

And as far as the guy who said that only 4-5 QB's have a 50%+ chance of being their team's starting QB in two years? What?

That is a weak arguement and does not help your arguement.......

 

If the bills stayed with Bryce Brown as the RB of the future then I certainly would be rooting for him because he has that size, speed, weight, thing that I like.....but the fact is the bills upgraded in a major way by bringing in a durable, consistant, top 5 NFL back......and Bryce might now even make the team.

 

Is your arguement would we root for a top 5 QB made available in the same way would we be rooking for that player or EJ? I think you know the answer to that.

 

The problem is a top 5 qb will NEVER be made available that way.....because good qbs are sooooo hard to find. THe bills saw a chance to upgrade at RB in a major way and took it......Im 100 percent behind it.

That's what I proposed but this thread is composed mainly of people wanting to prove to those who are taking the wait-and-see approach that we are stupid for not seeing the light- that because Marrone was a bad coach, it should be clear that he's going to be really good. At least that is my understanding.

That is not what people are trying to tell you at all.......

Guys - what the heck happened to letting a young QB develop by learning from mistakes? Of course there will be bad games, horrible ones. That's how guys get better. Wtf?

You know its interesting that you bring that up......because I feel like to illistrates the two different philosophies of Marrone and Ryan

 

Geno Smith has been an absolute intereception machine.......but Ryan kept sending him back out there.....letting him figure it out........

 

meanwhile

 

You just get he sense that EJ was under strict instruction to NOT take chances....NOT turn the ball over.....dont throw it unless you absolutely see it......play safe which resulted in tentative play

 

I wonder if EJ (if he does get the nod) is given open orders to let that damn thing rip......interceptions be damned.......and make his mistakes

[The Wiz]

I suppose that's fair. Then again, Manuel has the exact same sample size as one Tim Tebow (besides his playoff win of course) and the league seems to have formed an opinion on him. Again, people love to point to the 14 games as being his only sample size but no one ever wants to talk about his dumpster fire of a 2014 offseason/preseason. Coaches and teams (and so too should fans) form many of their opinions on players in camp, practice and the preseason. It's where guys not named Dareus, Mario Williams and Sammy Watkins have to go out and earn their job. It's why guys like Tim Tebow have found themselves out of a job altogether. Here's to hoping Manuel's 2015 offseason goes a lot smoother than last year.

The Tebow comparison is a hard one to swallow. He was a highly rated QB coming out of college and a heisman winner. NFL even profiled him as "arguably one of the best college qb's of all time". EJ was a raw/project QB from the time he was drafted and was expected to sit behind Kolb.

 

I agree about the awful TC\preseason that EJ had though. It's probably the reason why Orton was signed since all 3 of the QB's looked awful. And I know you hate this but, that begs to question why all 3 qb's were awful in camp/preseason.

[Bangarang]

The Tebow comparison is a hard one to swallow. He was a highly rated QB coming out of college and a heisman winner. NFL even profiled him as "arguably one of the best college qb's of all time". EJ was a raw/project QB from the time he was drafted and was expected to sit behind Kolb.

 

I agree about the awful TC\preseason that EJ had though. It's probably the reason why Orton was signed since all 3 of the QB's looked awful. And I know you hate this but, that begs to question why all 3 qb's were awful in camp/preseason.

 

Tebow was even more of a project than EJ. People make it sound like EJ was some late round project that opperated strictly out of the pistol in college when they say stuff like that.

[The Wiz]

Tebow was even more of a project than EJ. People make it sound like EJ was some late round project that opperated strictly out of the pistol in college when they say stuff like that.

Can you show me a scouting report that projected Tebow as a project QB? Seriously, I just tried to find one and couldn't find anything other than fan polls. The first time I heard of him being a project was after he was signed by the Jets.

[LB3]

Can you show me a scouting report that projected Tebow as a project QB? Seriously, I just tried to find one and couldn't find anything other than fan polls. The first time I heard of him being a project was after he was signed by the Jets.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/tim--tebow?id=497135

 

He will need a lot of retraining when he gets to an NFL camp as he plays out of the shotgun formation and will need a lot of work on dropping from center and setting up in the pocket while reading coverage schemes. He has a strong arm but his accuracy has been inconsistent over the years as he often ends up throwing the ball when on the move. He is not generally real quick to pull the trigger once he decides where he wants to throw the ball.

[Bangarang]

Can you show me a scouting report that projected Tebow as a project QB? Seriously, I just tried to find one and couldn't find anything other than fan polls. The first time I heard of him being a project was after he was signed by the Jets.

You need a scouting report that describes him using the word project to agree with that point? The offense he ran in college didn't exactly prepare him for the NFL.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Bangarang

[3rdand12]

That is a weak arguement and does not help your arguement.......

 

If the bills stayed with Bryce Brown as the RB of the future then I certainly would be rooting for him because he has that size, speed, weight, thing that I like.....but the fact is the bills upgraded in a major way by bringing in a durable, consistant, top 5 NFL back......and Bryce might now even make the team.

 

Is your arguement would we root for a top 5 QB made available in the same way would we be rooking for that player or EJ? I think you know the answer to that.

 

The problem is a top 5 qb will NEVER be made available that way.....because good qbs are sooooo hard to find. THe bills saw a chance to upgrade at RB in a major way and took it......Im 100 percent behind it.

That is not what people are trying to tell you at all.......

You know its interesting that you bring that up......because I feel like to illistrates the two different philosophies of Marrone and Ryan

 

Geno Smith has been an absolute intereception machine.......but Ryan kept sending him back out there.....letting him figure it out........

 

meanwhile

 

You just get he sense that EJ was under strict instruction to NOT take chances....NOT turn the ball over.....dont throw it unless you absolutely see it......play safe which resulted in tentative play

 

I wonder if EJ (if he does get the nod) is given open orders to let that damn thing rip......interceptions be damned.......and make his mistakes

John , this is a worthwhile thought to ponder.

We know that Doug wanted to execute the run no matters how many reps it took or many plays it was ineffective.

The mash up with Rex and the FO over at the Jets leaves me wondering who was making that decision.

I dont think Roman likes that type of play , interceptions be damned, though. A bit More conservative maybe?

Hopefully EJ would be trusted to make the checks though and THEN let her rip !!

[metzelaars_lives]

Is there really a guy on this website trying to say that Tim Tebow was not projected as a project qb by most teams coming out of college?

[Fixxxer]

Is there really a guy on this website trying to say that Tim Tebow was not projected as a project qb by most teams coming out of college?

 

As a QB, Tebow was undraftable. He should have swtiched to RB and maybe he would still be in the league.

[The Wiz]

You need a scouting report that describes him using the word project to agree with that point? The offense he ran in college didn't exactly prepare him for the NFL.

No I don't. Was just a question.

 

Is there really a guy on this website trying to say that Tim Tebow was not projected as a project qb by most teams coming out of college?

No, I'm not. I never thought Tebow would amount to anything in the NFL.

 

 

As a QB, Tebow was undraftable. He should have swtiched to RB and maybe he would still be in the league.

I think that's the reason that he's out of the league. He might have been able to catch on somewhere as a 3rd string QB but didn't want to do anything else so his options were limited.

[White Linen]

I don't think EJ is all that inaccurate. I think he makes the wrong read fairly often and then makes the more difficult throw that lead to incompletions. You could see his WR's were getting frustrating namely Woods. In saying that - I don't think it's unlikely he emerges. Either a lot of things have to go right for a young QB to develop quickly or a lot has to go wrong for them to learn from and work out.

 

Mechanics get worse as confidence goes down - that's what I saw happen to EJ. I think he's got everything going for him and will win the starting job.

[metzelaars_lives]

No I don't. Was just a question.

 

No, I'm not. I never thought Tebow would amount to anything in the NFL.

 

I think that's the reason that he's out of the league. He might have been able to catch on somewhere as a 3rd string QB but didn't want to do anything else so his options were limited.

I thought you said that he was polished coming out of college? If you asked me to give you a QB who, coming out of college, could be described as "raw" and a "project," the first QB that would pop into my head would be Tim Tebow. Actually there are a lot of comparisons between the two. Both were projected as 3rd round types by most but had teams willing to take a chance on them in the first round because they loved some of the tools and the upside. Clearly, EJ had/has a better arm coming out of college but at least Tebow was able to put it together at the college level. Another thing people have seemingly forgotten about Manuel is that he wasn't even that good in college. So to that point, I understand what you're trying to say. But as pro prospects, Tebow was every bit as raw- probably much more raw- than Manuel.

Edited July 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[Fixxxer]

Oh and one last thing for you. Since when did you become the cherry picking statistic guy (EJ's QB rating on first downs in September) when just a few short months ago you were TBD's resident "all that matters is W-L record" guy?

Good dialogue. I appreciate you not being argumentative. Thanks for pulling up that quote by the way. I guess all I'd say is that the San Diego and Houstion games constituted what I would call extenuating circumstances for two reasons. Number one, he was playing REALLY bad. Like two straight single digit QBR performances. My favorite stat, which I mentioned again here but nobody seems to pick up on, is that in the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and finished with 3 catches for 17 yards. And secondly, it became apparent through four games that the Bills had an elite defense- one good enough to carry the team to the playoffs if they could only get competent QB play. And I guess above all else, I just want to see the Bills make the freaking playoffs.

 

And lastly, I agree that Matt Cassel doesn't get me excited but I'm also smart enough to realize that there is an extremely good chance he will end up giving the Bills the best chance to win this season. While Manuel played pretty decent against Chicago and Miami last year, he wasn't very exciting in those games either. The Bills NEED game manager play. If they get better than that, great, but I'm not banking on it from any of these three guys. I understand that the unknown comes with a bit of "excitement" but sucking is not exciting either.

 

Can you expand on this, I re-watched the game and I don't see how is this possible. Was that the gameplan going in? Because everything went to **** when we couldn't find answers to stop JJ Watt.

[K-9]

You bet! All I'm saying is when you draft a QB, particularly a developmental one, you have to let him fail in order for him to get better. Holds true in any profession.

This is true. But Marrone's insecurity prevented him from allowing Manuel to fail. Which is too bad because EJ showed some ability to overcome adversity which, for many out there, is the most critical aspects of QB play.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[3rdand12]

 

Can you expand on this, I re-watched the game and I don't see how is this possible. Was that the gameplan going in? Because everything went to **** when we couldn't find answers to stop JJ Watt.

yep.

almost like they did not try very hard either.

stunt, anyone, anyone at all?

This is true. But Marrone's insecurity prevented him from allowing Manuel to fail. Which is too bad because EJ showed some ability to overcome adversity which, for many out there, is the most critical aspects of QB play.

 

GO BILLS!!!

and there it is.

Can he ?

That's the bit thats would suggest he might have something.

I would be delighted if he just keep his .... together and execute a couple plays to keep he ball alive

[metzelaars_lives]

 

Can you expand on this, I re-watched the game and I don't see how is this possible. Was that the gameplan going in? Because everything went to **** when we couldn't find answers to stop JJ Watt.

Here ya go.

 

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400554212

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Is there really a guy on this website trying to say that Tim Tebow was not projected as a project qb by most teams coming out of college?

Tebow was over hyped. EJ was not.

 

 

metzelaars_lives, on 18 Jul 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Oh and one last thing for you. Since when did you become the cherry picking statistic guy (EJ's QB rating on first downs in September) when just a few short months ago you were TBD's resident "all that matters is W-L record" guy?

 

Since when? Since some people (a) do it themselves to ridicule EJ and (b) are high on stats pertaining to total YARDS and give EJ crap because he passed for less than 200 yards, A GOOD stat in those measly passing yards (<200) was the 75+ completion percentage.

 

Here in DC all you heard in RGIII's first season was his 70+ completion% with no reference to total yards because he could (at the time) scramble.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_cmp_perc_career.htm

look at that 66% is THE best

Jim Kelly 60.1%

Edited July 20, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Fixxxer]

Here ya go.

 

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=400554212

 

Is that an official stat? I re-watched the game and Woods didn't have any drops but it didn't feel he was targeted as many times. Watkins had 2 key drops on 3rd down and 4 overall, Mike Williams had 2 drops, though one shouldn't count because it was a pass short of the 3rd down marker and in no way he was going to convert had he not dropped the ball. Chandler had one drop.

 

Thanks for the link.