"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[1billsfan]

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/12027/revisiting-flacco-troy-smith-controversy

 

It just amazes me the lack of patience fans have with Qbs. Of course, we live in a world where folks were calling for Brady to be benched last year.

 

This isn't totally about EJ. There are a lot of fans who can't handle the development phase of a young qb. I don't know if EJ will ever be a franchise qb but I don't think a young qb had a worst coaching staff to develop under.

 

I think the guy has all the physical and mental tools to succeed. It's ok to have doubts but it seems some are crusading to put the guy down every chance they get. And my question is why?

 

Given the last few years, I think deep down many Bills fans are furious this franchise didn't draft Russell Wilson in the third round. Not only that, they moved up in the third for a total stiff of a WR. They simply can't help themselves to take it out on EJ.

 

So they proclaim EJ Manuel as a Blaine Gabbert type of total failure, when the reality is that EJ's at least shown promising enough attributes in his play for the reasonable fans to still have faith that he will eventually become a franchise QB.

[Fixxxer]

Oh and one last thing for you. Since when did you become the cherry picking statistic guy (EJ's QB rating on first downs in September) when just a few short months ago you were TBD's resident "all that matters is W-L record" guy?

Good dialogue. I appreciate you not being argumentative. Thanks for pulling up that quote by the way. I guess all I'd say is that the San Diego and Houstion games constituted what I would call extenuating circumstances for two reasons. Number one, he was playing REALLY bad. Like two straight single digit QBR performances. My favorite stat, which I mentioned again here but nobody seems to pick up on, is that in the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and finished with 3 catches for 17 yards. And secondly, it became apparent through four games that the Bills had an elite defense- one good enough to carry the team to the playoffs if they could only get competent QB play. And I guess above all else, I just want to see the Bills make the freaking playoffs.

 

And lastly, I agree that Matt Cassel doesn't get me excited but I'm also smart enough to realize that there is an extremely good chance he will end up giving the Bills the best chance to win this season. While Manuel played pretty decent against Chicago and Miami last year, he wasn't very exciting in those games either. The Bills NEED game manager play. If they get better than that, great, but I'm not banking on it from any of these three guys. I understand that the unknown comes with a bit of "excitement" but sucking is not exciting either.

 

I wish I could watch the game again but I remember the WRs dropping at least 4 or 5 passes in that game. You can pin the loss on Manuel's shoulders if you want but as a whole, the offense was bad that day.

[1billsfan]

Oh and one last thing for you. Since when did you become the cherry picking statistic guy (EJ's QB rating on first downs in September) when just a few short months ago you were TBD's resident "all that matters is W-L record" guy?

Good dialogue. I appreciate you not being argumentative. Thanks for pulling up that quote by the way. I guess all I'd say is that the San Diego and Houstion games constituted what I would call extenuating circumstances for two reasons. Number one, he was playing REALLY bad. Like two straight single digit QBR performances. My favorite stat, which I mentioned again here but nobody seems to pick up on, is that in the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and finished with 3 catches for 17 yards. And secondly, it became apparent through four games that the Bills had an elite defense- one good enough to carry the team to the playoffs if they could only get competent QB play. And I guess above all else, I just want to see the Bills make the freaking playoffs.

 

And lastly, I agree that Matt Cassel doesn't get me excited but I'm also smart enough to realize that there is an extremely good chance he will end up giving the Bills the best chance to win this season. While Manuel played pretty decent against Chicago and Miami last year, he wasn't very exciting in those games either. The Bills NEED game manager play. If they get better than that, great, but I'm not banking on it from any of these three guys. I understand that the unknown comes with a bit of "excitement" but sucking is not exciting either.

 

Why? So they will eventually have a Raider game late next year and not make the playoffs?

 

There's simply no hiding the QB position in the NFL. Well sure, of course there is if you can argue that you are ok with being the Vikings from two years ago or Chiefs circa today. It's time for the whiney fans to put their big boy pants on and get ready to watch Manuel "let er rip" because they are going to use him exactly like they used Kaepernick. Being ok with Cassel is like being ok with not even trying at all. Being ok with throwing in the towel rather than reaching for anything real or genuine. Rex is going to do something that no one has ever done with EJ, he is going to put his trust in him. Then and only then will we all get to see the real EJ Manuel and not the pretend NFL QB he's been forced to play like.

[GunnerBill]

 

Good dialogue. I appreciate you not being argumentative. Thanks for pulling up that quote by the way. I guess all I'd say is that the San Diego and Houstion games constituted what I would call extenuating circumstances for two reasons. Number one, he was playing REALLY bad. Like two straight single digit QBR performances. My favorite stat, which I mentioned again here but nobody seems to pick up on, is that in the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and finished with 3 catches for 17 yards. And secondly, it became apparent through four games that the Bills had an elite defense- one good enough to carry the team to the playoffs if they could only get competent QB play. And I guess above all else, I just want to see the Bills make the freaking playoffs.

 

Agree with this. At the start of last season I'd have said EJ if healthy should get 16 starts. The Houston game was, however, a game changer. I don't think he was as awful as you do in the San Diego game although I accept he didn't play well.... but he disintegrated at Houston. Was the gameplan nonsensical? Yes. Was abandoning the run ludicrous? Yes. But EJ fell apart. My gut feeling that night was he would be benched and whilst I wanted to say that's the wrong decision I had to confess my instinct was it was the right call. Then, like you, there were moments where I'd have gone back to EJ later in the season. Denver and Oakland stand out for me as the games where that was the case. I suppose the reason that they never benched EJ mid game in Houston or Orton mid game in one of those late match ups was that they couldn't plan and operate one game plan effectively let alone switching to a second one.

 

 

 

And lastly, I agree that Matt Cassel doesn't get me excited but I'm also smart enough to realize that there is an extremely good chance he will end up giving the Bills the best chance to win this season. While Manuel played pretty decent against Chicago and Miami last year, he wasn't very exciting in those games either. The Bills NEED game manager play. If they get better than that, great, but I'm not banking on it from any of these three guys. I understand that the unknown comes with a bit of "excitement" but sucking is not exciting either.

 

Agree with this less. The footage I have seen of Cassel in OTAs he looked terrible - much worse than expected. I now believe that there is every possibility EJ wins the job this camp and is the guy giving us the best chance to win. Go back before OTAs I would have said I was 90% sure of Cassel being the day 1 starter. That percentage is now cut in half.

[John from Riverside]

You asked what it would take for someone to say that EJ excelled over the course of a game and you got an answer. I personally don't see anything idiotic in the response. Excelling isn't just making do, being ok; whatever phraseology you want to use. Excelling is taking control IMO.

 

Go back and rewatch that game. This time imagine that an excellent (one who excels) NFL QB is taking snaps for the Bills. How did the game turn out in your mind?

Whoa.....just whoa.....

 

I think we are getting a little mixed up here in definitions.

 

I am not talking about what would make EJ Manuel a franchise QB for this team in my eyes

 

I am asking what would it take to say that EJ Manuel excelled in a GAME for the bills.......

 

EJ Manuel.......a player who everyone admits is an unfinished product.....a player who had his first year cut short to injury.....in all honest a player that probably should not even have played his first year and should have been behind a solid vet holding a clipboard.......

 

A player who had a completely unimaginative OC and a head coach who put him in some of the worse possible situations to excel........on a team that frankly could not run the ball as a ball run dominant team.......with no talent at the offensive guard position........

 

In his very young career.......if you have a QB that actually made plays that one the game........and did lead them to a WIN in overtime (a pressure situation) on the road.......

 

I keep hear "as other QBs in the league have done".....exactly what QBs are we talking about? Manning? Brady? Ben R.? A. Rogers?

 

I have seen QBs that are considered franchise QBs for their team like Joe Facco, Tony Romo, etc etc that have wilted in those exact situations......

 

So exactly where is the bar being set for EJ Manuel in his young career? How much was he being held back by his now O line coach? Is it fair to compare in to top level QBs in the NFL at this time?

 

Now.....last year was last year and I dont even know if EJ Manuel starts for this team......but people need to remember just how had it is to find those QBs that go through what EJ Manuel has gone through as far as QB cultivation and succeed.....

[FireChan]

Whoa.....just whoa.....

 

I think we are getting a little mixed up here in definitions.

 

I am not talking about what would make EJ Manuel a franchise QB for this team in my eyes

 

I am asking what would it take to say that EJ Manuel excelled in a GAME for the bills.......

 

EJ Manuel.......a player who everyone admits is an unfinished product.....a player who had his first year cut short to injury.....in all honest a player that probably should not even have played his first year and should have been behind a solid vet holding a clipboard.......

 

A player who had a completely unimaginative OC and a head coach who put him in some of the worse possible situations to excel........on a team that frankly could not run the ball as a ball run dominant team.......with no talent at the offensive guard position........

 

In his very young career.......if you have a QB that actually made plays that one the game........and did lead them to a WIN in overtime (a pressure situation) on the road.......

 

I keep hear "as other QBs in the league have done".....exactly what QBs are we talking about? Manning? Brady? Ben R.? A. Rogers?

 

I have seen QBs that are considered franchise QBs for their team like Joe Facco, Tony Romo, etc etc that have wilted in those exact situations......

 

So exactly where is the bar being set for EJ Manuel in his young career? How much was he being held back by his now O line coach? Is it fair to compare in to top level QBs in the NFL at this time?

 

Now.....last year was last year and I dont even know if EJ Manuel starts for this team......but people need to remember just how had it is to find those QBs that go through what EJ Manuel has gone through as far as QB cultivation and succeed.....

If you can't see the difference between EJ's performance in the Carolina game and his performance in the Chicago game, I don't know what to say.

 

You are basically saying "EJ sucks, but he played decently against the worst defense in the league,so he really played excellently." You are lowering your standards. That's all fine in a debate, but compared to the rest of the NFL, with QB's much better than EJ, it was not him playing excellently. That's really all there is to it.

 

I also enjoy how you are making the excuse that we couldn't "run the ball" yet in the Chicago game, we had almost 200 yards on the ground, including a huge one to end it on the game-winning drive. So, EJ gets the excuse that we couldn't run the ball in our best rushing game of the season, which means he played excellent? Remember when I talked about acrobatics?

Edited July 18, 2015 by FireChan

[3rdand12]

 

Any coach who came into the Houston game with the idea to pass on most plays and single block Watt should have benched himself.

and this was why he was pulled.

manuel got fully rattled. like seek counseling and down to your cleats rattled.

I think Marrone was being obtuse with his protections for EJ.

almost to the level of conspiracy theory for me.

Kid needed to sit down for a minute.

I hate Marrone for that game. Thats when i noticed borderline insano play calls.

EJ has not played a down in 3/4s of a year. We have no idea how he has progressed. Or if he has.

He needs to win the job outright though.

I am rooting for him for sure

and then Tyrod too

But its do or do not do this year.

no pressure Kid!!

Oh and one last thing for you. Since when did you become the cherry picking statistic guy (EJ's QB rating on first downs in September) when just a few short months ago you were TBD's resident "all that matters is W-L record" guy?

Good dialogue. I appreciate you not being argumentative. Thanks for pulling up that quote by the way. I guess all I'd say is that the San Diego and Houstion games constituted what I would call extenuating circumstances for two reasons. Number one, he was playing REALLY bad. Like two straight single digit QBR performances. My favorite stat, which I mentioned again here but nobody seems to pick up on, is that in the Houston game, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times and finished with 3 catches for 17 yards.

My ears pricked for sure when i saw you note this.

I am a big fan of his.

wasnt this the game the receivers quit on him? or quit on the team.

 

I have blocked the houston game from my mind. too painful for me to recall. I just see JJ Watt and and a thoroughly freaked out EJ in my mind. and i cry a little

[Bangarang]

http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/12027/revisiting-flacco-troy-smith-controversy

 

It just amazes me the lack of patience fans have with Qbs. Of course, we live in a world where folks were calling for Brady to be benched last year.

 

This isn't totally about EJ. There are a lot of fans who can't handle the development phase of a young qb. I don't know if EJ will ever be a franchise qb but I don't think a young qb had a worst coaching staff to develop under.

 

I think the guy has all the physical and mental tools to succeed. It's ok to have doubts but it seems some are crusading to put the guy down every chance they get. And my question is why?

 

I can't speak for anyone else that doesn't believe EJ will ever be a franchise QB or even a good QB for that matter so I'll only give my perspective. The biggest thing for me is that EJ never really showed signs of improvement or that he was starting to get it. His first few games as a rookie were promising. Then he had some clunkers and was injured. When he returned from injury he had more clunkers and a few decent games. Even his absolute best games aren't considered great by NFL standards. They were just merely good.

 

I'm not going to lose faith in the guy after just his rookie year because that would be unfair. Where he loses me is in year two. At this point he's had an entire off-season to work on his game and correct his flaws. He was not good in training camp. He was dreadful in the pre-season. He managed the first two games well and then just fell apart after. I'm not going to be naive and pretend like it was all on EJ because it wasn't. The offensive line and running game weren't doing him any favors. However, if you watch the All-22 his accuracy was still a mess and he missed so many receivers with a clean pocket with throws that players of the caliber we hope he can get to make routinely. He was still robotic and mechanical and was still very risk averse often times rushing too quickly for the check down and dump offs. You could argue that Marrone and the gameplan did him no favors either and there would be a certain degree of merit there. However, at the end of the day, I saw a young QB with a lack of feel for the position, questionable at best accuracy and looked no better in his final game in year 2 than he did in first game as a rookie.

 

I criticize EJ a lot and it's because it's frustrating to watch a player have all the tools he has and say the right things but then go out on the field and play timid and without confidence. I don't see a franchise QB in the making. I just see a guy that was drafted higher than he probably should have been that has all those "physical tools" that people on tv drool over but never actually puts it all together on the field.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

Just went back and watched the plays.

 

The Stevie fumbled happened with 23 seconds left in the game at the Atlanta 31. The fumble in OT occurred at our own 44. If Stevie doesn't fumble then we're looking at roughly a 48 yard FG which I would give really good odds for Carpenter to make in a dome.

well then the boxscore recap is wrong in the link I referenced.

[Bangarang]

well then the boxscore recap is wrong in the link I referenced.

Perhaps it was referencing when the play started? Regardless, we're just splitting hairs right now. The bottom line is that had Stevie not fumbled the ball then EJ likely gets credited for a game winning drive in the 4th quarter.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

If coaches benched EVERY QB after a bad game then every team would switch QB's at lease twice a season.

Perhaps it was referencing when the play started? Regardless, we're just splitting hairs right now. The bottom line is that had Stevie not fumbled the ball then EJ likely gets credited for a game winning drive in the 4th quarter.

agreed totally. The Stevie play lost the game. The Chandler play compounded it.

[John from Riverside]

If you can't see the difference between EJ's performance in the Carolina game and his performance in the Chicago game, I don't know what to say.

 

You are basically saying "EJ sucks, but he played decently against the worst defense in the league,so he really played excellently." You are lowering your standards. That's all fine in a debate, but compared to the rest of the NFL, with QB's much better than EJ, it was not him playing excellently. That's really all there is to it.

 

I also enjoy how you are making the excuse that we couldn't "run the ball" yet in the Chicago game, we had almost 200 yards on the ground, including a huge one to end it on the game-winning drive. So, EJ gets the excuse that we couldn't run the ball in our best rushing game of the season, which means he played excellent? Remember when I talked about acrobatics?

Forget it....your never going to get it....carry on

[FireChan]

Forget it....your never going to get it....carry on

I do get it John. You don't wish to compare EJ to his peers. A shame that that's who he has to play against.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Forget it....your never going to get it....carry on

Oh he gets it. 1000% He's just being a giant TROLL to everyone who has not given up completely on EJ as he has.

 

He twists posts then says that we misinterpret things.

 

I swear I'm this close || to putting him on my ignore list.

[metzelaars_lives]

If coaches benched EVERY QB after a bad game then every team would switch QB's at lease twice a season.

agreed totally. The Stevie play lost the game. The Chandler play compounded it.

Oh here we go. My favorite EJ excuse: other quarterbacks have had bad games too. So because Joe Montana had a bad game in 1986 does that mean you think Jamarcus Russell has a better chance of staging an improbable comeback?

 

And fellas, I am still waiting for someone to come out and say that they believe EJ Manuel has a better than 50% chance to be the Bills' clear cut opening day starter in 2017. Because if no one will say that, then I'm not sure anyone even disagrees with me because all I've said is that I don't think he does. I don't hate him, I don't root against him, I don't think he's a bust and I don't even think it's inconceivable he wins the job this year.

[Beerball]

Now put a guy with 8 starts and Hackett/marrone as his OC, an injured rookie and a second year wr out there on the road - what would constitute better than expected?

We'll never know. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it would be blind homerism to call EJ's play excellent.

 

 

Imo

[metzelaars_lives]

Oh he gets it. 1000% He's just being a giant TROLL to everyone who has not given up completely on EJ as he has.

 

He twists posts then says that we misinterpret things.

 

I swear I'm this close || to putting him on my ignore list.

Dude no one, including FireChan, has given up on EJ completely. PLEASE stop putting words in everyone's mouths. Do you understand that there is a difference between being skeptical and saying someone is completely done.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I do get it John. You don't wish to compare EJ to his peers. A shame that that's who he has to play against.

what peers?

Manning? Brady? Rivers? Cutler? Orton?

Luck? Wilson? Kap? Tannerhill? Manziel? Geno? RGIII (and out), Weeden? Vince Young? Quincy Carter? Mike McMahon?

[LB3]

Oh here we go. My favorite EJ excuse: other quarterbacks have had bad games too. So because Joe Montana had a bad game in 1986 does that mean you think Jamarcus Russell has a better chance of staging an improbable comeback?

 

And fellas, I am still waiting for someone to come out and say that they believe EJ Manuel has a better than 50% chance to be the Bills' clear cut opening day starter in 2017. Because if no one will say that, then I'm not sure anyone even disagrees with me because all I've said is that I don't think he does. I don't hate him, I don't root against him, I don't think he's a bust and I don't even think it's inconceivable he wins the job this year.

Fug it. I'll say it. He has a 50.1% chance of being our clear cut opening day starter two years from now...

 

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Oh here we go. My favorite EJ excuse: other quarterbacks have had bad games too. So because Joe Montana had a bad game in 1986 does that mean you think Jamarcus Russell has a better chance of staging an improbable comeback?

 

And fellas, I am still waiting for someone to come out and say that they believe EJ Manuel has a better than 50% chance to be the Bills' clear cut opening day starter in 2017. Because if no one will say that, then I'm not sure anyone even disagrees with me because all I've said is that I don't think he does. I don't hate him, I don't root against him, I don't think he's a bust and I don't even think it's inconceivable he wins the job this year.

1 - you clearly want to misinterpret my posts. So for the betterment of the thread lets drop it.

2 - I already said I give EJ a better than 50% chance for EJ as starter in 2017. Go reread your own thread and see who else may have said so.