"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[NoSaint]

You asked what it would take for someone to say that EJ excelled over the course of a game and you got an answer. I personally don't see anything idiotic in the response. Excelling isn't just making do, being ok; whatever phraseology you want to use. Excelling is taking control IMO.

 

Go back and rewatch that game. This time imagine that an excellent (one who excels) NFL QB is taking snaps for the Bills. How did the game turn out in your mind?

Now put a guy with 8 starts and Hackett/marrone as his OC, an injured rookie and a second year wr out there on the road - what would constitute better than expected?

[Bangarang]

 

I’m a believer in Manuel, but I think he will need to win at least three games this year by putting the team on his back to solidify his starting position in 2016 (that and have the Bills in the playoffs of course). I think he will do that because he’s more mature, he has a professional OC and the offensive players are better around him.

Having said that, just like all the haters, he never mentions the 2013 Falcons/Bills game with the season in balance and where EJ had the game won in the 4th quarter and in OT until fumbles after clutch passes to Stevie and Chandler. The team then went to Tampa and collectively played like they had checked out for the season.

 

 

Just to clarify, I would not say that EJ had the game won in OT. When Chandler fumbled, he was not even at midfield so to say the game was won if he didn't would be a bit of a stretch. However, I will agree that EJ would have added another game winning drive to his name if Stevie had not fumbled because where he did was certainly in FG range. Carpenter probably comfortably kicks that game winning FG.

Now put a guy with 8 starts and Hackett/marrone as his OC, an injured rookie and a second year wr out there on the road - what would constitute better than expected?

 

The first two games last year I looked at EJ as a competent game manager. He did enough for us to win. I don't think being a game manager is a sustainable model for success but it's probably enough to be competitive each week. Granted, with our defense a game manager could get the job done in order for us to make the playoffs but I think that's a short sighted approach. I want to not only make the playoffs but compete every year and for that we're going to need an above average QB. Unfortunately, I don't think EJ will ever become that. I'm hoping that the light goes on under Roman. If EJ does not win the competition then I think it's pretty clear that he won't amount to anything as a starter in this league.

[Solomon Grundy]

I would care more about these stats if I hadn't seen EJ overthrow, underthrow, and throw behind so many times.

Most QBs make those kind of throws with CONSTANT PASS RUSH in his face. Watch the Texans/SD games, it was laughable how many times he got hit after releasing the ball.

Just to clarify, I would not say that EJ had the game won in OT. When Chandler fumbled, he was not even at midfield so to say the game was won if he didn't would be a bit of a stretch. However, I will agree that EJ would have added another game winning drive to his name if Stevie had not fumbled because where he did was certainly in FG range. Carpenter probably comfortably kicks that game winning FG.

 

The first two games last year I looked at EJ as a competent game manager. He did enough for us to win. I don't think being a game manager is a sustainable model for success but it's probably enough to be competitive each week. Granted, with our defense a game manager could get the job done in order for us to make the playoffs but I think that's a short sighted approach. I want to not only make the playoffs but compete every year and for that we're going to need an above average QB. Unfortunately, I don't think EJ will ever become that. I'm hoping that the light goes on under Roman. If EJ does not win the competition then I think it's pretty clear that he won't amount to anything as a starter in this league.

 

I remember seeing a "game manager" when a Super Bowl thrice with Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Dilfer. Hell, I'd even consider putting Russell Wilson in that category. People forget that in his 1st SB win, it was the defense and Percy Harvin that showed out in that victory.

I believe EJ Manuel can/will be more than just a "game manager". He has a game/mindset of a Steve McNair to me. I believe we will see that this season and beyond.

[1billsfan]

Has any player in Bills history inspired more fan excuses for failure than EJ Manuel?

 

Has any player in Bills history inspired more hatred for performing like the very definition of the project QB in which he was clearly billed as when he was drafted?

 

BTW, you seriously consider 19 TDs (pass/rush) in 14 games as a failure for a guy who was a project QB to begin with? If he had a full 16 games he would have had at least 21 TDs for a season's worth of games. That's a failure now? I think some people have been brainwashed into thinking he was much worse than he was in reality.

[Solomon Grundy]

To answer PlayoffsPlease question, YES, JP Losman!!

[Bangarang]

Most QBs make those kind of throws with CONSTANT PASS RUSH in his face. Watch the Texans/SD games, it was laughable how many times he got hit after releasing the ball.

 

I remember seeing a "game manager" when a Super Bowl thrice with Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Dilfer. Hell, I'd even consider putting Russell Wilson in that category. People forget that in his 1st SB win, it was the defense and Percy Harvin that showed out in that victory.

I believe EJ Manuel can/will be more than just a "game manager". He has a game/mindset of a Steve McNair to me. I believe we will see that this season and beyond.

For every Brad Johnson, Hostetler and Dilfer there are hundreds of other game managers that never got it done. There are exceptions to every rule and I can't put my hope on EJ being one of those guys when the odds are historically against him.

 

Right now, I don't think he will get it done. There are just too many flaws that I've seen over the last two years to have that kind of confidence in him. If I'm wrong then I'll be very happy because that means we're likely winning games and competing in the playoffs. He's going to have a clean slate and in 2 weeks once camp starts his abilities will be on full display. Like I've said, if he doesn't win the competition then I think it's pretty much time to move on.

Edited July 18, 2015 by Bangarang

[Solomon Grundy]

Has any player in Bills history inspired more fan excuses for failure than EJ Manuel?

 

For every Brad Johnson, Hostetler and Dilfer there are hundreds of other game managers that never got it done. There are exceptions to every rule and I can't put my hope on EJ being one of those guys when the odds are historically against him.

 

Right now, I don't think he will get it done. There are just too many flaws that I've seen over the last two years to have that kind of confidence in him. If I'm wrong then I'll be very happy because that means we're likely winning games and competing in the playoffs. He's going to have a clean slate and in 2 weeks once camp starts his abilities will be on full display. Like I've said, if he doesn't win the competition then I think it's pretty much time to move on.

 

Too many flaws?? I see him being hesitant on throws and inaccuracy. Both are repairable. I'm curious to know what other flaw have you seen?

[Bangarang]

Too many flaws?? I see him being hesitant on throws and inaccuracy. Both are repairable. I'm curious to know what other flaw have you seen?

Inaccuracy first and foremost

Ability to feel pressure and move up in the pocket.

He has mediocre field vision

His mechanics are a mess. His lower body is terribly inconsistent and his arm strength suffers because of it

 

Some things can be corrected over time but I don't think he has a good enough feel for the position to be an above average starter in the league.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

Just to clarify, I would not say that EJ had the game won in OT. When Chandler fumbled, he was not even at midfield so to say the game was won if he didn't would be a bit of a stretch. However, I will agree that EJ would have added another game winning drive to his name if Stevie had not fumbled because where he did was certainly in FG range. Carpenter probably comfortably kicks that game winning FG.

RE Atlanta game

I'd go even further - EJ had the game in hand (won) when SJ13 fumbled in the the 4th (maybe 3rd) QTR allowing the Falcons to tie up the game.

[Bangarang]

I'd go even further - EJ had the game in hand (won) when SJ13 fumbled in the the 4th (maybe 3rd) QTR allowing the Falcons to tie up the game.

I have no doubt that EJ had the game won when Stevie fumbled in the 4th. If I recall, he fumbled on or around the 30 yard line and there were roughly 30 seconds left. My only objection was saying he had the game won in OT had Chandler not fumbled.

[FireChan]

So he is not excelling unless he puts the team on his back.....with everyone sucking around him.......and wins the game all by himself

 

Do you realize how idiotic that sounds?

You asked for a definition of excellent. There are excellent QB's in the NFL who do things like that constantly.

 

Now that's not exactly my own definition, but playing competently and not puking on your shoes/not choking does not constitute "excellence." Decent? Sure. Excelling? Nah.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

You aren't going to prove to me that EJ Manuel will probably develop into a franchise QB and I'm not going to

 

The fan support thing is ridiculous. Bills are top 3. Probably third behind Green Bay and Kansas City, who was ranked 27th in that ridiculous study. So?

1) No chit, yet you deny this fact and say you will "support" him as the #1. To you, EJ is a failure. FRT no one is saying EJ will be GREAT. We want to see him play and progress. Your bias is blinding you. (now say you have no idea what I am saying)

 

2) My point IF the fan support thing is AFU, then so too can the mediots about EJ. No one liked him from the get go. Nothing will change until he is given every opportunity to prove himself.

That means with good coaching and not changing what they do week to week and moving away from what was working!

[JESSEFEFFER]

 

"Has any player in Bills history inspired more hatred for performing like the very definition of the project QB in which he was clearly billed as when he was drafted?

 

BTW, you seriously consider 19 TDs (pass/rush) in 14 games as a failure for a guy who was a project QB to begin with? If he had a full 16 games he would have had at least 21 TDs for a season's worth of games. That's a failure now? I think some people have been brainwashed into thinking he was much worse than he was in reality."

 

EJ has 8 of his 14 starts with a tQBR of 50+. That is a majority, as in 57%, for those who are math challenged. The Bills were 5-3 in those 8 games with losses to NE, Cle and Atl which shows that the tQBT+R @ 50 is a reasonable measure of having given his team a chance to win. This is not the norm for QBs in their first two seasons. Tannehill and Flacco were at 50% after their first two and Andy Dalton was under. Geno Smith is 8 of 30 in his first two and Carr and Bortles weren't even close nor was Kyle Orton who cleared the 50 mark in only 4 of his 12 starts.

 

I think the magnitude of EJ's suckitude is greatly exaggerated by some. And, given injuries, lost practice time, shakey coaching and declining o-line play, I think his production is even more impressive. It shows some perseverance. His play has shown an inclination to finish games better than he started, run a decent two minute drill and provide some added prodcution with his elusiveness. I would really like to see him in this offense under these coaches for the majority of this season. I think he is likely to thrive.

 

Edited July 18, 2015 by JESSEFEFFER

[PlayoffsPlease]

 

Has any player in Bills history inspired more hatred for performing like the very definition of the project QB in which he was clearly billed as when he was drafted?

 

BTW, you seriously consider 19 TDs (pass/rush) in 14 games as a failure for a guy who was a project QB to begin with? If he had a full 16 games he would have had at least 21 TDs for a season's worth of games. That's a failure now? I think some people have been brainwashed into thinking he was much worse than he was in reality.

I consider getting benched for a retiree who was not even in training camp a failure.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

BillsFan-4-Ever, on 17 Jul 2015 - 9:01 PM, said:

thanks for proving our point

You think EJ is a bust and no one will change your mind

 

No, you see HE could change my mind. If he performs well, that will change my mind. Your statistics about the Bills running a lot on first down in September of 2013 have not changed my mind that I think he PROBABLY WON'T become a franchise QB. Does that make sense at all? And please find one post where I have ever used the word "bust" in the same sentence as EJ Manuel (besides this one). Spoiler alert: I haven't.

AND JUST how the can he do that when you and Chan and a few others never want him to take the field?

[Rob's House]

I don't know this. It's total conjecture, based on what I saw. But I argued all through the second half of last season that Marrone neutered Orton and the offense, and that is why he seemed to give up. Not that he was just cashing a paycheck all along. I think he got totally frustrated with Marrone's Lee Smith offense, and he wasn't allowed to be the field general that he was in the first few games.

 

He gave up because he couldn't really play his game. And Marrone, as was his wont, decided to play not to lose because the defense was so good.

 

There is nothing I have seen or read or heard since then that makes me rethink that stance, and a lot of things that make me believe it more.

 

This would explain Orton's unexpected retirement announcement at the end of the year too. I always figured he came back for a chance to be a starter. If what you suggest is accurate, maybe he decided that he has enough money, didn't like the idea of another season playing Marrone brand football, and decided to call it a career.

[Solomon Grundy]

You asked for a definition of excellent. There are excellent QB's in the NFL who do things like that constantly.

Now that's not exactly my own definition, but playing competently and not puking on your shoes/not choking does not constitute "excellence." Decent? Sure. Excelling? Nah.

So then why the love for Jay Cutler??

[Doc]

I think we may actuallly never know if Roman was the silver bullet given the upgrades to the offensive side of the ball

 

- Incognito is a former pro bowler........they addressed the OG position in the draft.....addition by subtraction with Pears who did not belong at OG....offensive linemen in their 2nd years

 

- Sammy in his second year (and injury free)

 

- One of the best TE's in the NFL......and the postiion further addressed with college Mackey award winner

 

- Top 5 NFL running back

 

If the team starts having offensive success.....is it the silver bullett OC or all the new quality groceries that the Pegulas bought?

-

 

Don't forget Harvin. And Cordy not having a mystery illness going into/possibly through the season.

 

Great question. I would've benched him in the second half of the Houston game so not too far off there. And then toward the end of the year there were a few times where Orton was so bad that I thought they should've put EJ back in. I remember thinking it in the Packers game and then the Raiders game. And then not playing him for the entire Patriots game was a joke. Marrone was clearly obsessed with finishing 9-7 to bolster his marketability. You?

 

I would add too that a lot of people on here like to pile on Marrone and say that he should have let EJ ride it out. When they made the switch to Orton after the Houston game was there one person on here that had an issue with it? And then after Orton played pretty damn good (all things considered) against Detroit and then very solid against New England, Minnesota and the Jets to get them to 5-3- by that point no one was talking about Manuel anymore. And one thing I find amusing is when people act like the JJ Watt INT was the only thing he did wrong in that game. As I've stated time and again, Robert Woods was targeted 12 times in that game and had 3 receptions for 17 yards.

He excelled on first downs for the first two games? I just think that's a classic example of cherry picking a stat. I haven't listened yet but if it correlates to that silly article then I probably won't.

I said they should have stuck with EJ the whole season.

 

Has any player in Bills history inspired more fan excuses for failure than EJ Manuel?

 

Maybe not, but there were a lot of problems with the offense the past couple years that no one can deny.

 

Most QBs make those kind of throws with CONSTANT PASS RUSH in his face. Watch the Texans/SD games, it was laughable how many times he got hit after releasing the ball.

 

I remember seeing a "game manager" when a Super Bowl thrice with Hostetler, Brad Johnson and Dilfer. Hell, I'd even consider putting Russell Wilson in that category. People forget that in his 1st SB win, it was the defense and Percy Harvin that showed out in that victory.

I believe EJ Manuel can/will be more than just a "game manager". He has a game/mindset of a Steve McNair to me. I believe we will see that this season and beyond.

 

Add in Brady in the Pats' first SB.

[Solomon Grundy]

I consider getting benched for a retiree who was not even in training camp a failure.

 

Once again, consider who was making the decisions. The guy who thought Erik Pears was a starting RG in the NFL. The same guy who sat one of our best pass rushers out of a game in the 4th qtr of a game and said he didn't even know he wasn't out there. The same guy who used to punt on 3rd and inches in the opponents territory. Need I go on....

[FireChan]

The thing about "consistency in the playoffs" is that the teams that win the Superbowl are not always consistent. Joe Flacco isn't consistent. Neither is Eli. They both have had great games against good opponents, and really bad games. Short of hitting on a top 5 generational guy, you want a guy who, at his best, can play great, and you accept that he's gonna have some games or years where he'll play worse and fall short.

 

Flacco is a good QB for this reason. He's had great games before, but whether it's luck, streaking or what have you, he put together a couple of his best to win a championship. So did Eli. And both of those guys have had really bad years as well.

 

Rodgers, Brady, P. Manning are all great because they are consistent. A down year for one of those guys is an above average year for a Flacco/Eli QB. But Flacco/Eli both have the potential on any given Sunday to outduel one of those guys if they play well. That's the kind of QB I want to target short term. That's why I want Cutler. His season stats are a little above average, but not spectacular. I get that. But is there a available QB with a better chance to throw for 400 yards and 4 TD's on a random game? If you had to pick one QB out of the guys available for trade/FA, who gives you the best odds of winning a shootout against a great QB?

 

That's the main reason why I, personally, don't have as much faith in EJ as I would like in delivering a Superbowl. He's had some good performances with good team performances, no question. But I haven't seen him elevate to that point where I go, "Woah, we could outscore anyone with EJ playing like this." I know it's a tall order, but I wish I had seen that.

 

In short, I want a guy who has had multiple "hot" games where he's flat out dominated. I don't care about his lows. Consistency be damned. Just give me someone with a shot to play at a Pro-Bowl level for a game. That could be enough, with some luck.

 

So then why the love for Jay Cutler??

Edited July 18, 2015 by FireChan