Azalin Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Yeah. But, I've spoken to a lot of people who almost revel at the idea of wanting to deport these people back home. People who I know as ok people, but when it comes to this issue, their blood boils and they have no regard for the life they have here. Yes, they came here illegally, yes, there needs to be a solution to limit the inflow but by in large, they are good people just like you and me who want to better their lives. That's what makes the U.S the greatest nation on the planet. We have more people that want to come here to this country to achieve the American dream. In other words, the people that come are looking to be productive. Sure, there are some like the ones that are assimilated here that don't want to lead productive lives, but I bet you if there was an honest stat that indicated the % of immigrants that come to the country legally or illegally vs the people that are already here, that those that are coming here have a stronger desire to work. This debate makes me want to pull out my hair. I don't think a lot of you guys realize this, we are witnessing right now the structural collapse of the future Latino vote for Republicans. The rhetoric is ugly, I'm not one to cry foul on PC stuff, but with the emergence of Trump, it's like whoever says the most offensive comment gets Kudos for being non PC. Take it from someone who lives in Miami, who has tons of latino friends, who keeps up with mainstream latino culture. Trump is public enemy #1. And now half the GOP field is following down this rabbit hole along with him. They look like a bunch of pandering wimps. People say, "ah, look at Bush or Rubio pander to latinos". Think about that for a second. Pandering to Latinos? Hello, being anything that could be viewed as amnesty is TOXIC within the GOP. That's guts, not pandering. The panderers are people like Trump, Walker, Santorum and Carson among others. There is nothing easier in politics for a GOP candidate to have a hardline stance on immigration. I'm not going to lie to you, this whole debate, specially over the past couple weeks has now ventured into a whole new realm. And it's no bueno, for the GOP with latino voters. Cubans use to be solidly GOP. That's no longer the case. The younger cubans who don't feel the passions of their parents about the Castro regime don't have the allegiance to the GOP as they do. They look at the GOP as a bunch of white people who look down upon them. They see this debate about the "anchor baby", and while a bunch of people cheer on the politicans "YAAAA! Anchor Baby! " and they say "ok, !@#$ you". The decline of the Latino began during the contentious summer that Bush tried to pass immigration reform and the talk radio rhetoric was hot. That began the decline... Went from the low to mid 40%'s to McCains low 30%'s to Romney's 27%.....Where do you think it will be next election? The rhetoric is deplorable right now. It's worse than at any point that I can ever remember. Even if Bush or Rubio were to get the nomination, they'd be lucky to get 30%. The damage is done, now it's a matter of when does the healing part begin? The GOP has not hit rock bottom with the Latino vote, it's still sinking. That's why an immigration bill needs to happen. Take this issue off the table. I just wish the rhetoric would be more inclusive, but at the same time remain firm on the principles of sealing up the border. Taking action to limit the inflows of illegal immigrants and then doing something providing some sort of legal status to those that are already here. That would be the best thing not just for the GOP but for the country. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you for the most part. The rhetoric has indeed reached a caustic level, but part of the reason it's become that bad is because of a legitimate frustration felt by many Americans. You know many Cuban Latinos, and I know many Mexican and Central American Latinos, and we're both aware that they have the same desires and needs as anyone else does. I don't know how many people in the general public know about our policy toward Cuban immigrants, but as I understand it, it's entirely different from the rules we have for anyone else immigrating here from any other nation around the world. People from all over the world would love to come here, but we obviously can't let everyone in. That doesn't mean we can't streamline the immigration process, but whatever we wind up doing is going to have to take careful planning and a lot of thought will need to go into any such decisions we make in changing our policy. I've heard some good ideas as to how we can accommodate immigrants wishing to gain citizenship, but nothing has been done by those who have the power to do so. Deporting several million people is completely out of the question. Building a wall is ridiculous. What, then, do we do to curtail the flow of foreign nationals across the southern border? Granted, there are less coming across than there were a few years ago, but that's due to a slow economy and less work than there once was. That will change when the economy picks up again, and we start seeing more people coming across the Rio Grande. I've already stated my opinion regarding the lack of assimilation, so I don't need to reiterate that. Regardless, our society is made up of people from many other places, and aside from the occasional Chinatown here & there, we've amalgamated into a diverse, yet reasonably homogenous culture, bound largely by a common language and sense of nationalism. I can't speak to the Cuban-American sub culture, but the low-income Latino culture here in Texas is primarily that way due to their lack of integration into our society. They rely very heavily on subsidies, they have children while so young that we even have some middle schools here locally that have child-care facilities so the underage teenage mothers can attend classes. Needless to say that the high schools have an even greater need for in-school child care. Some of these schools don't even offer classes in English. People see this every day, and are frustrated by the (perceived or real) lack of interest in being part of the larger community, and when someone like Trump comes along and says that we're going to build a wall and deport them all, they hear someone echoing their own frustrations, and it resonates with them. For the record, I am not in agreement with them. I have my own frustrations with our immigration system, but they're personal, and it's something I deal with nearly every day. One of the reasons that the rhetoric is getting so bad is because the issue itself is getting bad. The national media reflects that. When joe blow white guy gets drunk and kills a family because he plowed into them after drinking 35 beers, it only gets reported locally. When someone does the same thing and they happen to be here illegally from Guatemala, it gets national attention. It's more than a handful of people seeking the presidency that are making this the issue that it is, they're just fanning flames that have been smoldering for a while now. There's no question that a solution is needed, and rounding up millions of people and putting up a wall ain't going to do it. However, the issue isn't going to just go away, and people are not going to stop coming over here. We need to come up with an effective way to prevent the flow of people coming here illegally, and we need to find a way to bring those that are already here fully into the fold, so that they are Americans first, and Latinos second.
DC Tom Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 No kidding, because Hispanics prefer leftist policies. For the most part, you have cause-and-effect backwards. California used to be a red state. Import too many Hispanics, and now it's a lock for the Dems. Most Latin American countries are leftist. That's what they're used to. Yeah, it couldn't have anything to do with attitudes like this. It's gotta be the leftist governments they're trying to leave by illegally immigrating here.
Azalin Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 No kidding, because Hispanics prefer leftist policies. For the most part, you have cause-and-effect backwards. California used to be a red state. Import too many Hispanics, and now it's a lock for the Dems. Most Latin American countries are leftist. That's what they're used to. I think the fact that so many Latinos want to leave their countries to come here completely contradicts everything you just said.
Ozymandius Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 And you'd be wrong. Most Hispanics have very conservative values it's just the GOP has totally screwed the pooch on that one. Being "conservative" is more than just about being against abortion. https://youtu.be/tTXILmKdrjo?t=1m30s Yeah, it couldn't have anything to do with attitudes like this. It's gotta be the leftist governments they're trying to leave by illegally immigrating here. I think the fact that so many Latinos want to leave their countries to come here completely contradicts everything you just said. They have to first understand that the reason their country sucks is leftism. Do they? This goes for everyone, not just Hispanics. Lots of white liberals leave crappy California to go live in Texas, only to continue voting for Democrats. Eventually Texas will be blue because of this and Latino immigration.
Chef Jim Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Being "conservative" is more than just about being against abortion. So you think the only conservative value Hispanics have is being anti-abortion?
Ozymandius Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 So you think the only conservative value Hispanics have is being anti-abortion? Did you see the polling cited in the video? Yes, they are family-oriented. But they also like big government.
Magox Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you for the most part. The rhetoric has indeed reached a caustic level, but part of the reason it's become that bad is because of a legitimate frustration felt by many Americans. You know many Cuban Latinos, and I know many Mexican and Central American Latinos, and we're both aware that they have the same desires and needs as anyone else does. I don't know how many people in the general public know about our policy toward Cuban immigrants, but as I understand it, it's entirely different from the rules we have for anyone else immigrating here from any other nation around the world. People from all over the world would love to come here, but we obviously can't let everyone in. That doesn't mean we can't streamline the immigration process, but whatever we wind up doing is going to have to take careful planning and a lot of thought will need to go into any such decisions we make in changing our policy. I've heard some good ideas as to how we can accommodate immigrants wishing to gain citizenship, but nothing has been done by those who have the power to do so. Deporting several million people is completely out of the question. Building a wall is ridiculous. What, then, do we do to curtail the flow of foreign nationals across the southern border? Granted, there are less coming across than there were a few years ago, but that's due to a slow economy and less work than there once was. That will change when the economy picks up again, and we start seeing more people coming across the Rio Grande. I've already stated my opinion regarding the lack of assimilation, so I don't need to reiterate that. Regardless, our society is made up of people from many other places, and aside from the occasional Chinatown here & there, we've amalgamated into a diverse, yet reasonably homogenous culture, bound largely by a common language and sense of nationalism. I can't speak to the Cuban-American sub culture, but the low-income Latino culture here in Texas is primarily that way due to their lack of integration into our society. They rely very heavily on subsidies, they have children while so young that we even have some middle schools here locally that have child-care facilities so the underage teenage mothers can attend classes. Needless to say that the high schools have an even greater need for in-school child care. Some of these schools don't even offer classes in English. People see this every day, and are frustrated by the (perceived or real) lack of interest in being part of the larger community, and when someone like Trump comes along and says that we're going to build a wall and deport them all, they hear someone echoing their own frustrations, and it resonates with them. For the record, I am not in agreement with them. I have my own frustrations with our immigration system, but they're personal, and it's something I deal with nearly every day. One of the reasons that the rhetoric is getting so bad is because the issue itself is getting bad. The national media reflects that. When joe blow white guy gets drunk and kills a family because he plowed into them after drinking 35 beers, it only gets reported locally. When someone does the same thing and they happen to be here illegally from Guatemala, it gets national attention. It's more than a handful of people seeking the presidency that are making this the issue that it is, they're just fanning flames that have been smoldering for a while now. There's no question that a solution is needed, and rounding up millions of people and putting up a wall ain't going to do it. However, the issue isn't going to just go away, and people are not going to stop coming over here. We need to come up with an effective way to prevent the flow of people coming here illegally, and we need to find a way to bring those that are already here fully into the fold, so that they are Americans first, and Latinos second. I appreciate the thoughtful response and I pretty much agree with everything you are saying. You are reasonable, but I also believe that there is a solid base core of the population, the talk radio peeps who don't want to solve this issue. What I mean by that is that they see Latinos as scavengers, criminals and future Democrats. The only solution they want is to deport them home and build a wall. Before they would have settled with just building a wall and increase border security. Now, thanks to Trump (even though it always existed inside) they want to deport them home and change the constitution. Rather than moving in a more constructive manner, we moved further away. You and I both know that just like that article I posted from the David Harsanyi, that is simply Porn for these folks. Not rooted in reality, only a feel-good measure that has no chance at ever happening. I'm dismayed with where this conversation has moved. I suppose it's because of my Latin roots, that I'm well in tune with the spanish community, I see the carnage that is taking place. I know this lady, who is a friend of my mom's that is one of my FB friends. She was a huge Romney supporter and we use to chat a little about that. This lady is in her 50's. Now I see her posting stuff about Republicans being racists and all this crap. She's even posting stuff about Bernie Sanders. I asked her just a month ago, what happened? She told me that she simply just doesn't identify with Repubs anymore. Now what got her to go from Romney to Sanders, that still confounds me and I didn't get into that. But I will say this, honestly, I feel like I don't identify with the personality of many of the people in the GOP. My economic and mental philosophy about personal responsibility will never allow me to vote for a leftist. I think more than ever we need a multiple party system. This two party system sucks, because I have more in common with a centrist democrat, even though they are practically extinct, then I do with people with hardline views. I don't relate with these folks. Maybe a 4/5 party system. Leftist, center left, center right, right and libertarian. I think it would be a lot better, the primary process causes politicians to pander to folks on the further wings of the party. Unfortunately the further wings of the parties tend to be much more active in politics, so they show up to vote for the primaries. Which is why Repubs still do well in non presidential year elections. It's just a matter of numbers. Right now whites make up about 62% and hispanics make up 17%. By around 2040, white people will no longer be the majority. Hispanics will be above 25% and considering that we are on a down trend due to the perception among Latino's of the non inclusiveness of the GOP, we are headed towards about winning 15% of those Latinos. You know what that means? Socialism You have to win these folks over. They will listen to the conservative message if they feel that they can be a part of the party. Latino's have many conservative traits but they just have to feel wanted. Which reminds me, this lady I was talking about. She is always posting stuff about Jesus and religious stuff. You gotta win them over, but you won't win them over if they feel like you view them as scavengers, rapists, free loaders and anchor babies. Did you see the polling cited in the video? Yes, they are family-oriented. But they also like big government. And so do the religious right. Guys like Santorum and Huckabee are family values, big government Repubs. They tend to be more compassionate with their policies that want to help the poor. It should be a big tent party, small government and big government repubs should all be part of the fold.
Chef Jim Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Did you see the polling cited in the video? Yes, they are family-oriented. But they also like big government. I think it's safe to say that being new here they may not understand what that means. But you've got big government I have a bunch more conservative values they believe in.
Magox Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) The Koch brothers have invested in a really good initiative called LIBRE. I love what they are doing. Take a look and here as well They want to help and educate Latinos about the benefits of being conservative. And they are making serious inroads, Democrats are worried about this initiative LIBRE. But this latest move by Trump, I guarantee you has more than set them back from all the gains they had made over the past couple years. Just like that. POOF. Gone Same guy, Daniel Garza who head's this LIBRE initiative. Libre Initiative Executive Director Daniel Garza, whose nonpartisan group is focused on promoting conservative principles among Latinos, says his organization “vehemently” opposes revoking birthright citizenship and called the issue a divisive one. “The call to rescind birthright citizenship goes well beyond the call for ‘self-deportation,’” Garza said. “You are talking about a massive institutional revision. That is not gonna happen. But just driving that narrative is just going to split people.” Alfonso Aguilar, a former official in the George W. Bush administration, said the birthright citizenship issue is flooding through Spanish-language media and added of Latinos: “This is what they’re hearing every day. They find it insulting.” In particular, he pointed to Walker, a leading GOP hopeful who has already endorsed more conservative views on immigration than other mainstream Republicans, as a candidate who is “done” because of his support for ending birthright citizenship. “He was already aligning himself with those who say legal immigration suppresses wages, and that was already toxic,” said Aguilar, who now runs the American Principles Project’s Latino Partnership, which advocates for conservative causes among Latinos. “But with this, I can guarantee you: He’s not going anywhere. He’s gonna be destroyed with Latinos.” The political retribution against the GOP in the general election will be much more acute if Republicans nominate someone who’s embraced ending birthright citizenship, Wehner said. But if the nominee is someone who’s rejected the policy — like Bush or Rubio — that would lessen the damage, he added. Considering that Koch Brothers happen to like Scott Walker, and Scott Walker recently endorsed Trump's plan, I assure you that the Koch people contacted Scott Walker and must have been like "Really? Really? That is the stand you are taking?" Which probably explains why Scott Walker is now backtracking on his support of Trump's plan. But he has become so spineless, he doesn't want to take on positions that go against the base but he also needs more money to campaign. Which is why he now is saying "I don't want to talk about this birth right issue, lets just secure the border and then we'll discuss it". Yeah, I remember how he criticized Romney from his perch every time Romney made a gaffe. He'd act all high and mighty like he would have been a better candidate. He's proving himself to be a dud. In any case, there is serious money and effort and educating Latino's on the principles of Conservatives. That's why when you see Trump and his band of nativists say the things they do, people like Daniel Garza, who heads up this Latin conservative initiative, are completely dismayed. They see all the work they have done over the past few years, the gains they are making, wiped out in a matter of days. And I share the exact same sentiment. Edited August 21, 2015 by Magox
Ozymandius Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I think it's safe to say that being new here they may not understand what that means. But you've got big government I have a bunch more conservative values they believe in. Watch the video. Even on social issues, they are starting to go left. It's just a matter of numbers. Right now whites make up about 62% and hispanics make up 17%. By around 2040, white people will no longer be the majority. Hispanics will be above 25% and considering that we are on a down trend due to the perception among Latino's of the non inclusiveness of the GOP, we are headed towards about winning 15% of those Latinos. You know what that means? Socialism Well, when you import all these immigrants from socialist countries, it makes sense that socialism will rise. You have to win these folks over. They will listen to the conservative message if they feel that they can be a part of the party. Latino's have many conservative traits but they just have to feel wanted. I hope you're right. Sincerely. I hope the Right can win them over long-term. But I give it about a 1% chance. First, the Left are incredible at identity politics and winning the non-white vote. Their messaging, while full of deceit, is simple, seductive, and populist. Meanwhile, the Right has to teach immigrants Austrian economics, lol. Second, the Left has a head start because Hispanic immigrants tend to come from leftist countries. Third, the Left controls the schools, news media, and entertainment. Like I said, a 1% chance. But I hope I'm wrong. Sincerely.
Ozymandius Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (Oh yeah, I might add. If a significant number of Latinos are eschewing learning English, as some of you are suggesting, then that's going to be another roadblock to winning them over. Convincing them to go Right-wards pretty much has to mean better assimilation from that community.)
DC Tom Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Being "conservative" is more than just about being against abortion. https://youtu.be/tTXILmKdrjo?t=1m30s They have to first understand that the reason their country sucks is leftism. Do they? This goes for everyone, not just Hispanics. Lots of white liberals leave crappy California to go live in Texas, only to continue voting for Democrats. Eventually Texas will be blue because of this and Latino immigration. By Occam's Razor, you're just an idiot.
Ozymandius Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) By Occam's Razor, you're just an idiot. Yeah, it makes much more sense that conservative Latinos end up voting for the leftist Democrats (who are leftist both socially and fiscally), because apparently the conservative Latinos got their feelings hurt by the big bad GOP. Brilliant. Edited August 21, 2015 by Ozymandius
DC Tom Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Yeah, it makes much more sense that conservative Latinos end up voting for the leftist Democrats (who are leftist both socially and fiscally), because apparently the conservative Latinos got their feelings hurt by the big bad GOP. Brilliant. "Got their feelings hurt?" You want to kick them out of the country. Maybe most of them are more rational than you, and vote their self-interest rather than blind ideological allegiance.
Ozymandius Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 "Got their feelings hurt?" You want to kick them out of the country. Maybe most of them are more rational than you, and vote their self-interest rather than blind ideological allegiance. Just the illegals. Before Trump submitted his immigration plan, why were the Latinos voting Dem in increasing numbers? BTW, don't rule out Trump doing well among legal Latinos. Many of them don't like illegal immigration, either.
keepthefaith Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 So the question is does a very tough stance on illegal immigration win more votes than it loses? I'd say yes. In particular, what is the impact in states like Oh, VA, NC, IA, MO, CO, FL, PA, NH, MI, WI? Going over the list I think it's a net plus in most of these states.
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) Just the illegals. Before Trump submitted his immigration plan, why were the Latinos voting Dem in increasing numbers? BTW, don't rule out Trump doing well among legal Latinos. Many of them don't like illegal immigration, either. Is that so? It couldn't be that moron ethno-centric nativists are suggesting "solutions" to our immigration problems that extend all the way out to genocide, and almost always embrace ethnic cleansing; and have declared all out war on their cultural heritage? It couldn't be that crys for "rounding up" primarily Hispanic illegals necessarilly involves unConstitutionally forcing US citizens and legal residents of Latino decent prove their citizenship? Edited August 22, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker
Tiberius Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 Just saw some Trump in Mobile and he's just a blathering idiot. His hick crowd is trying to figure out when to laugh.
IDBillzFan Posted August 22, 2015 Posted August 22, 2015 Just saw some Trump in Mobile and he's just a blathering idiot. His hick crowd is trying to figure out when to laugh. Nice copy/paste, nutsucker. Cohesive. Informative. Interesting. Oh, wait. It was none of those things. I'm stunned you get paid to post this tripe.
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