Magox Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Sanders would beat Trump, but he'd get creamed by the top tier GOP candidates. The fact that he is a self-described socialist and some of his economic positions are too extreme and outside of the mainstream would be too much of a deterrent for him to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 I apologize if this has already been posted. http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/30/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-poll/ 44% Sanders vs 39% Trump in a general election. That's a wider margin than H vs T. I know it's CNN but they've been Trumps go to outlet. I'm telling you, Fox News vs. Trump is going to be the Fight of the Century. That poll was taken in July which was two weeks ago. That was before Sanders looked like a scared and weak little man at a speaking event and before Trump's status as leader in the GOP polls became cemented. Trumps numbers have really jumped since then. I think that Bernie Sanders could never be elected as president after America saw that scared look on his face at that event. You have to let people know when that poll took place. It's kind of disingenuous to not let everyone know when that poll took place. The other thing about that poll it appears that 35-45% of people don't really know even who Bernie Sanders is judging by how many voted "don't know" with questions specifically regarding him. Not saying Trump is great, just saying that this poll is a throw away at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Sanders would beat Trump, but he'd get creamed by the top tier GOP candidates. The fact that he is a self-described socialist and some of his economic positions are too extreme and outside of the mainstream would be too much of a deterrent for him to overcome. Who would you consider top tier? I could actually see Sanders beating a few of the people in the GOP race, like Bush or Cruz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Who would you consider top tier? I could actually see Sanders beating a few of the people in the GOP race, like Bush or Cruz. Rubio, Bush, Walker, Kasich and possibly Cruz even though my suspicions are that he may be too right wing for the general electorate. It would be close between those two. I still have to see more of Fiorina, but she could be added to that list. Rand Paul, who won't get the nomination most likely would defeat Sanders as well and so would Christie, but he won't get the nomination either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Sanders would beat Trump, but he'd get creamed by the top tier GOP candidates. The fact that he is a self-described socialist and some of his economic positions are too extreme and outside of the mainstream would be too much of a deterrent for him to overcome. He would need to educate the public on differences between democratic socialism (what he falls under) and marxism (the big bad boogie man), a tough task, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 He would need to educate the public on differences between democratic socialism (what he falls under) and marxism (the big bad boogie man), a tough task, imo. Yeah, a tough task given that democratic socialism is constructed on the philosophical foundations of Marxism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Yeah, a tough task given that democratic socialism is constructed on the philosophical foundations of Marxism. Yup, but less extreme. (at least as far as I understand it) Edited August 14, 2015 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Yup, but less extreme. (at least as far as I understand it) What in the hell does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Yup, but less extreme. (at least as far as I understand it) What you're saying makes no sense. Marxism is a critique of class relations and the rise of capitalism. Communism is not, however, synonymous with Marxism. The Marxist critique is simply the "moral" argument made in favor of Communism, or Leninism, or Trotskyism, or Maoism, or Norwegian socialism, or modern American liberalism, or democratic socialism. As such, it is inextricable from those philosophies. The argument you seem to be making, is that democratic socialism is different than Communism. The rebuttal is: so what, it's still a Marxist philosophy which justifies the elimination of classical liberalism and the natural rights of man in favor of the absolute power of the state. Edited August 14, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) Bernie voted no on Partial birth abortions with the exception to save a mother's life. He is against school vouchers to private schools that allows more choice for student's. He supports sanctuary cities. He supports protectionist trade policies (which is disastrous, see Great depression) His Foreign policy is always that of a pacifist. (In today's ISIS, Iran and Russia problems that are posed, foreign policy will be at the forefront). Ideally, most of us would like to always have peace, but when you are the world's super power, you can't always take military actions off of the table. His views are suited for Sweden, not the U.S His environmental views are way too green. He doesn't support any sort of drilling and is in favor of Cap and trade taxation which would lead to higher energy costs for everyone, including the consumers. Most American's support drilling and this would be exposed. He supports a 90% taxation on the wealthy, but would settle at 50%. That's beyond extreme. He is against reforming S.S despite it's long-term viability, and would actually would like to expand them. He believes in workplace democracy and that eventually all major corporations should be publicly owned by the workers. In other words, everything that made the U.S the super power that it is, he wants to change it. He's not fit to be president of the U.S. Maybe some small populous country out in Europe with really high tax revenues, but not here. Edited August 14, 2015 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 What you're saying makes no sense. Marxism is a critique of class relations and the rise of capitalism. Communism is not, however, synonymous with Marxism. The Marxist critique is simply the "moral" argument made in favor of Communism, or Leninism, or Trotskyism, or Maoism, or Norwegian socialism, or modern American liberalism, or democratic socialism. As such, it is inextricable from those philosophies. The argument you seem to be making, is that democratic socialism is different than Communism. The rebuttal is: so what, it's still a Marxist philosophy which justifies the elimination of classical liberalism and the natural rights of man in favor of the absolute power of the state. When this stuff gets too deep I have to add some levity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 14, 2015 Author Share Posted August 14, 2015 Yeah, a tough task given that democratic socialism is constructed on the philosophical foundations of Marxism. How so? Marx's ideas sound kind of anarchist actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state Was there actually a "Marxist plan"? It was more a theory of a historical process of revolution What you're saying makes no sense. Marxism is a critique of class relations and the rise of capitalism. Communism is not, however, synonymous with Marxism. The Marxist critique is simply the "moral" argument made in favor of Communism, or Leninism, or Trotskyism, or Maoism, or Norwegian socialism, or modern American liberalism, or democratic socialism. As such, it is inextricable from those philosophies. The argument you seem to be making, is that democratic socialism is different than Communism. The rebuttal is: so what, it's still a Marxist philosophy which justifies the elimination of classical liberalism and the natural rights of man in favor of the absolute power of the state. If any of that was even true, the fact marxism shares a criticism with other philosophies doesn't mean anything. Hell, John D. Rockefeller was against reckless competition as well, and did more than anyone to end it, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 When this stuff gets too deep I have to add some levity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 (edited) How so? Marx's ideas sound kind of anarchist actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state Was there actually a "Marxist plan"? It was more a theory of a historical process of revolution If any of that was even true, the fact marxism shares a criticism with other philosophies doesn't mean anything. Hell, John D. Rockefeller was against reckless competition as well, and did more than anyone to end it, btw. The "withering away of the state" is a separate concept only loosely tied to Marxism as a response to classical liberals to who lamented that Marx's ideas (the ones constituting actual Marxist philosophy) could only lead to a permanent oppressive state that, rather than "set men free" as Marx intended, would instead perpetually imprison them under a new form of master. And Marxism doesn't "share a criticism", but rather is the foundational philosophy that those systems are constructed on. That's an important distinction. Edited August 14, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 How so? Marx's ideas sound kind of anarchist actually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state Was there actually a "Marxist plan"? It was more a theory of a historical process of revolution If any of that was even true, the fact marxism shares a criticism with other philosophies doesn't mean anything. Hell, John D. Rockefeller was against reckless competition as well, and did more than anyone to end it, btw. We will add historical illiteracy to your ever expanding resume... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 Bernie voted no on Partial birth abortions with the exception to save a mother's life. He is against school vouchers to private schools that allows more choice for student's. He supports sanctuary cities. He supports protectionist trade policies (which is disastrous, see Great depression) His Foreign policy is always that of a pacifist. (In today's ISIS, Iran and Russia problems that are posed, foreign policy will be at the forefront). Ideally, most of us would like to always have peace, but when you are the world's super power, you can't always take military actions off of the table. His views are suited for Sweden, not the U.S His environmental views are way too green. He doesn't support any sort of drilling and is in favor of Cap and trade taxation which would lead to higher energy costs for everyone, including the consumers. Most American's support drilling and this would be exposed. He supports a 90% taxation on the wealthy, but would settle at 50%. That's beyond extreme. He is against reforming S.S despite it's long-term viability, and would actually would like to expand them. He believes in workplace democracy and that eventually all major corporations should be publicly owned by the workers. In other words, everything that made the U.S the super power that it is, he wants to change it. He's not fit to be president of the U.S. Maybe some small populous country out in Europe with really high tax revenues, but not here. I know of no country in the history of the world that has found prosperity with this approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted August 14, 2015 Share Posted August 14, 2015 So every 4 years billions of dollars are spent to win votes from idiots. The best idiot magnet wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who is Yuri? Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I've also noticed Trump propping himself up upon Bernie's success. Remember when Trump was the one source to claim he had 14 thousand people at his Arizona rally? Multiple sources estimated the crowd to be in the 4k range. But Trump proudly tweeted 12-15k, biggest crowd ever. Bigger than Bernie Sanders. Sanders just pulled 28,000 two nights in a row. Eat dust, Trump. Sorry, my links aren't working. Searching "Trump crowd size," confirms the above. Now, Trump is flattering himself with the comparisons to Bernie's enthusiasm. I can tell you that the comparisons are becoming more and more prevalent among right wing media. Sanders followers, however would scoff at the comparison. It tells you something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I've also noticed Trump propping himself up upon Bernie's success. Remember when Trump was the one source to claim he had 14 thousand people at his Arizona rally? Multiple sources estimated the crowd to be in the 4k range. But Trump proudly tweeted 12-15k, biggest crowd ever. Bigger than Bernie Sanders. Sanders just pulled 28,000 two nights in a row. Eat dust, Trump. Sorry, my links aren't working. Searching "Trump crowd size," confirms the above. Now, Trump is flattering himself with the comparisons to Bernie's enthusiasm. I can tell you that the comparisons are becoming more and more prevalent among right wing media. Sanders followers, however would scoff at the comparison. It tells you something. Sanders has no chance at the nomination. The enthusiasm is more a novelty than anything else, but won't translate into much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who is Yuri? Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 Sanders has no chance at the nomination. The enthusiasm is more a novelty than anything else, but won't translate into much. Heh, heh, heh. N-no he ain't proved n-n-nothin' yet. Once those unfamiliar numbers translate to favorable, though, we'll see. I am not ruling him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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