Update On Legal Dispute Over "Redskins" Trademark

[FireChan]

I rest my case.

You haven't made one. Besides refusing to define oppression.

[K-9]

You haven't made one. Besides refusing to define oppression.

I think you missed it. But that's not important. You don't get to tell people it's just a "stubbed toe" and that they just need to "get over it" because the atrocities and other oppressive acts have ceased. Although I would argue that the Termination Acts of the 50s and 60s (within my lifetime) were recent oppressive acts.

 

Oh, and we didn't "give" Native Americans anything, as you imply in an earlier post.

 

You should add Native American history to Civil War history as an area of study you need to brush up on. It's a bear though, given the sheer number of tribes and the much longer history involved. Perhaps focusing on the 370 some odd treaties between the US government and various indigenous peoples is a good place to start.

 

I don't give a crap what Daniel Snyder wants to call his team, btw. But I'm not going to be willfully ignorant and presume a good number of people don't have a good reason to be offended by it, either.

 

[FireChan]

I think you missed it. But that's not important. You don't get to tell people it's just a "stubbed toe" and that they just need to "get over it" because the atrocities and other oppressive acts have ceased. Although I would argue that the Termination Acts of the 50s and 60s (within my lifetime) were recent oppressive acts.

 

Oh, and we didn't "give" Native Americans anything, as you imply in an earlier post.

 

You should add Native American history to Civil War history as an area of study you need to brush up on. It's a bear though, given the sheer number of tribes and the much longer history involved. Perhaps focusing on the 370 some odd treaties between the US government and various indigenous peoples is a good place to start.

 

I don't give a crap what Daniel Snyder wants to call his team, btw. But I'm not going to be willfully ignorant and presume a good number of people don't have a good reason to be offended by it, either.

 

I didn't use the stubbed toe to insinuate what the offendedness is, but rather as a definition of oppression, because you consistently refused to define it. I defined oppression as a stubbed toe.

 

Now, we're talking though. Did the US not recognize the sovereignty of Native reservations for a time? How many invading governments have done that in their history?

[K-9]

I didn't use the stubbed toe to insinuate what the offendedness is, but rather as a definition of oppression, because you consistently refused to define it. I defined oppression as a stubbed toe.

 

Now, we're talking though. Did the US not recognize the sovereignty of Native reservations for a time? How many invading governments have done that in their history?

And I think I defined oppression as genocide and other atrocities.

 

For a time? Yes. Until "the end of all time" as some language specified in some treaties? Obviously not even close.

 

Sorry, but the fact that the US government honored the treaties "for a time" isn't a source of national pride for me.

[FireChan]

And I think I defined oppression as genocide and other atrocities.

 

For a time? Yes. Until "the end of all time" as some language specified in some treaties? Obviously not even close.

 

Sorry, but the fact that the US government honored the treaties "for a time" isn't a source of national pride for me.

Who said anything about national pride? Do you think I'm "proud" of the treatment of Natives?

 

I will say I was unaware about the Termination Acts.

 

What other atrocities?

[metzelaars_lives]

Who said anything about national pride? Do you think I'm "proud" of the treatment of Natives?

 

I will say I was unaware about the Termination Acts.

 

What other atrocities?

You certainly have not come off as very sympathetic about the treatment of Native Americans, likening it to Irish Americans having difficulty getting jobs when they first came over. Have you read much about Wounded Knee? That was in 1890. Not that long ago. Are whites living today responsible for Wounded Knee? No. But that doesn't change how they might feel about the name today.

Why you keep asking me about team names. Unless you consider that a sign of oppression. And why you keep associating a privately owned team with the country it resides in. As if that matters.

Let's drop the word oppression here because it appears to be a tad ambiguous in this conversation. I consider it a sign of disrespect. To what extent is somewhat debatable. But clearly enough of them feel disrespected that it has become an issue. Is that fair?

Edited July 16, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[K-9]

Who said anything about national pride? Do you think I'm "proud" of the treatment of Natives?

 

I will say I was unaware about the Termination Acts.

 

What other atrocities?

I brought up national pride because you asked "How many invading governments have done that in their history?" I don't know how you feel about the treatment of Native Americans and I really don't care, so don't look for an argument on those grounds.

 

As for other atrocities, I was thinking of the rape of woman, starvation, etc. But I guess we can lump that all under genocide. Hard to shoehorn "other atrocities" into that broad spectrum.

[FireChan]

I brought up national pride because you asked "How many invading governments have done that in their history?" I don't know how you feel about the treatment of Native Americans and I really don't care, so don't look for an argument on those grounds.

 

As for other atrocities, I was thinking of the rape of woman, starvation, etc. But I guess we can lump that all under genocide. Hard to shoehorn "other atrocities" into that broad spectrum.

So you brought up my feeling of "national pride" but you also don't care how I feel. Okay.

 

How do those atrocities affect Native Americans living today?

You certainly have not come off as very sympathetic about the treatment of Native Americans, likening it to Irish Americans having difficulty getting jobs when they first came over. Have you read much about Wounded Knee? That was in 1890. Not that long ago. Are whites living today responsible for Wounded Knee? No. But that doesn't change how they might feel about the name today.

Let's drop the word oppression here because it appears to be a tad ambiguous in this conversation. I consider it a sign of disrespect. To what extent is somewhat debatable. But clearly enough of them feel disrespected that it has become an issue. Is that fair?

1890 is a really long time ago. I guess that may be the disconnect, because I view that time period on the same level as the Revolution, the Civil War etc.

 

I feel sympathy for the Native Americans who brutally suffered at the hands of the US government. I don't know why I should express that sympathy for their great-great grandchildren. They don't even know each other. Off the top of your head, tell me your great-great grandfather's occupation, or their middle name, or their hopes, dreams, and what made them who they are. I'm doubting you can. At what point does it end? Harboring enmity due to ancestor actions is what creates perpetual violence.

[Rob's House]

So you brought up my feeling of "national pride" but you also don't care how I feel. Okay.

 

How do those atrocities affect Native Americans living today?

 

1890 is a really long time ago. I guess that may be the disconnect, because I view that time period on the same level as the Revolution, the Civil War etc.

 

I feel sympathy for the Native Americans who brutally suffered at the hands of the US government. I don't know why I should express that sympathy for their great-great grandchildren. They don't even know each other. Off the top of your head, tell me your great-great grandfather's occupation, or their middle name, or their hopes, dreams, and what made them who they are. I'm doubting you can. At what point does it end? Harboring enmity due to ancestor actions is what creates perpetual violence.

I once read a review of Appcalypto written by some kitty that was concerned that descendants of the Mayans may be offended by their portrayal.

[metzelaars_lives]

So you brought up my feeling of "national pride" but you also don't care how I feel. Okay.

 

How do those atrocities affect Native Americans living today?

1890 is a really long time ago. I guess that may be the disconnect, because I view that time period on the same level as the Revolution, the Civil War etc.

 

I feel sympathy for the Native Americans who brutally suffered at the hands of the US government. I don't know why I should express that sympathy for their great-great grandchildren. They don't even know each other. Off the top of your head, tell me your great-great grandfather's occupation, or their middle name, or their hopes, dreams, and what made them who they are. I'm doubting you can. At what point does it end? Harboring enmity due to ancestor actions is what creates perpetual violence.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote. I think we're getting closer here. 125 years ago being a long time however, is extremely relative. My great grandmother, whom I knew well, was born in 1902. That's 12 years after Wounded Knee. Not that long ago. If you think about the fact that Native Americans were thriving in North America for a minimum (some estimates are much higher) of 15,000 years until 125 years ago by which point they had been summarily and methodically murdered, driven off of their lands and reduced to a hapless, tired and beaten down people with no identity whatsoever, in the grand scheme of things, it's really not that long ago. And if you think those words are meant to embellish, consider the plains Indians, whose sustenance was based almost entirely on the buffalo for as long as they lived here. They would seek visions in sacred mountains and perform countless rituals that were extremely important to them- like way more than the NFL is to us. Now they were confined to "swaths" of land (as I believed you called them) where they were forced to sit in American schools, learn about Christianity, wear European/American clothes and farm (which they hated). The buffalo was long gone but now they had alcohol! Yay! You see, their bodies had never ingested alcohol before and thus, did not have the ability to process it and temper their use of it the way Europeans did/do. Have you ever been to a dilapidated reservation and seen a drunken Native American with a nose twice the size of Joe Torre's who doesn't know if it's 9 in the morning or 9 at night (I was asked that very question one time)? You should go sometime man! You can see the direct effects of what we did not that long ago and it's f***ing sad as hell. To think that same guy might've been waking up in a teepee next to a cool mountain stream in autumn and going on an early morning buffalo hunt with his pals and then performing a celebratory dance that night while feasting on buffalo- the same buffalo that our ancestors would shoot from moving trains for sport and leave to rot on the prairies while the remaining Native Americans were sitting on their pathetic reservations a few miles away... I could go on and on. Oh yeah and as the elders watched their land sadly industrialized in the name of the almighty dollar while they watched on as helpless bystanders, a new game was invented. And one of the teams decided to name themselves after a slang term used to call the Native Americans as they were being driven from their land. How proud they must have been.

 

After a couple hundred more years perhaps I would be more inclined to tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

Edited July 16, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[FireChan]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote. I think we're getting closer here. 125 years ago being a long time however, is extremely relative. My great grandmother, whom I knew well, was born in 1902. That's 12 years after Wounded Knee. Not that long ago. If you think about the fact that Native Americans were thriving in North America for a minimum (some estimates are much higher) of 15,000 years until 125 years ago by which point they had been summarily and methodically murdered, driven off of their lands and reduced to a hapless, tired and beaten down people with no identity whatsoever, in the grand scheme of things, it's really not that long ago. And if you think those words are meant to embellish, consider the plains Indians, whose sustenance was based almost entirely on the buffalo for as long as they lived here. They would seek visions in sacred mountains and perform countless rituals that were extremely important to them- like way more than the NFL is to us. Now they were confined to "swaths" of land (as I believed you called them) where they were forced to sit in American schools, learn about Christianity, wear European/American clothes and farm (which they hated). The buffalo was long gone but now they had alcohol! Yay! You see, their bodies had never ingested alcohol before and thus, did not have the ability to process it and temper their use of it the way Europeans did/do. Have you ever been to a dilapidated reservation and seen a drunken Native American with a nose twice the size of Joe Torre's who doesn't know if it's 9 in the morning or 9 at night (I was asked that very question one time)? You should go sometime man! You can see the direct effects of what we did not that long ago and it's f***ing sad as hell. To think that same guy might've been waking up in a teepee next to a cool mountain stream in autumn and going on an early morning buffalo hunt with his pals and then performing a celebratory dance that night while feasting on buffalo- the same buffalo that our ancestors would shoot from moving trains for sport and leave to rot on the prairies while the remaining Native Americans were sitting on their pathetic reservations a few miles away... I could go on and on. Oh yeah and as the elders watched their land sadly industrialized in the name of the almighty dollar while they watched on as helpless bystanders, a new game was invented. And one of the teams decided to name themselves after a slang term used to call the Native Americans as they were being driven from their land. How proud they must have been.

 

After a couple hundred more years perhaps I would be more inclined to tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

You're saying that the Wounded Knee era is a direct cause of rampant drug and alcohol abuse by Natives today? The Chinese shook their systemic opium addiction in almost the same amount of time. A much more addictive drug. Hell, they suppressed opium by 1949.

 

I bet it is sad. However, they have their own self-determination as people now. If they turn to alcoholism, that's on them.

Edited July 16, 2015 by FireChan

[metzelaars_lives]

You're saying that the Wounded Knee era is a direct cause of rampant drug and alcohol abuse by Natives today? The Chinese shook their systemic opium addiction in almost the same amount of time. A much more addictive drug. Hell, they suppressed opium by 1949.

 

I bet it is sad. However, they have their own self-determination as people now. If they turn to alcoholism, that's on them.

So now that we're seemingly at the end of this thing here, do you feel any differently about the name? If you continue to take the 'private ownership/trademark supersedes anyone's feelings' stance, that's fine. That being said, I hope you can see how maybe a Native American might take offense to the name.

[FireChan]

So now that we're seemingly at the end of this thing here, do you feel any differently about the name? If you continue to take the 'private ownership/trademark supersedes anyone's feelings' stance, that's fine. That being said, I hope you can see how maybe a Native American might take offense to the name.

I never said, "I don't know how anyone takes offense at the name." I can see how they might take offense at the name.

[machine gun kelly]

This is over the top. No one at all has a seriously negative remark against Native Americans. I know I don't. I'm so sorry for the horrible treatment 125 years ago, and that would be the same for African Americans, these past two centuries, as well as someone spoke to my heritage of Irish Americans 100 years ago as they were treated horribly as well. I'm not trying to compare any of their experiences.

 

To me the name of the team is not a big deal. If it is such a big deal, then I want to hear the same noise for FSU, as the Seminole tribe refuted the concerns, stating they considered a position of pride. I heard a number of chiefs in Indian Nations wanting this name as the erosion of Indian presence was quite concerning to them. The liked paraphrasing that the Seminole, Indians, Redskins, etc. is a way for the Indian footprint to live on as a fabrick for the history of this country.

 

I agree in that I am proud of our history, the wonderful addition of that from our Native American addition, and in no way is anybody I can tell wanting to insult anyone. It is PC gone mad as always. Lastly, my two sons are lacrosse nuts, with my oldest being shopped right now for D1 programs and lacrosse is a gift from the Native American culture. I could not say thank you more for everything this wonderful culture has contributed to our history. I just wish the PC police would give it a rest. I have a thick skin in my business. It's too bad so many people have such a thin skin. I never get rattled by people's comments.

[K-9]

So you brought up my feeling of "national pride" but you also don't care how I feel. Okay.

 

How do those atrocities affect Native Americans living today?

1890 is a really long time ago. I guess that may be the disconnect, ...

No, I thought you were suggesting I should be proud of that. Just making sure to be clear on a point I don't know why you thought needed making in the first place.

 

1890? I could have sworn I informed you earlier about the Termination Acts of the 1950s and 60s which is within MY lifetime. Must be that millennial phenomenon that all history is ancient history if it's more than a couple weeks past.

 

As for how those atrocities impact Native Americans today, I think many of them liken it to the way many in the Jewish community view the Holocaust; in a "never forget" fashion.

[FireChan]

No, I thought you were suggesting I should be proud of that. Just making sure to be clear on a point I don't know why you thought needed making in the first place.

 

1890? I could have sworn I informed you earlier about the Termination Acts of the 1950s and 60s which is within MY lifetime. Must be that millennial phenomenon that all history is ancient history if it's more than a couple weeks past.

 

As for how those atrocities impact Native Americans today, I think many of them liken it to the way many in the Jewish community view the Holocaust; in a "never forget" fashion.

I was speaking more specifically about the atrocities and genocide, which I know didn't happen in your lifetime. I am not yet planning on commenting on the Termination acts, as I am uninformed on them. My Wikipedia research seems to indicate that they were a reneging on the sovereignty of tribes, but you'll excuse me if I need time to dig a little deeper.

 

As to the "never forget" point, I can see that. I didn't think of that being a pervasive feeling throughout Native populations.

[Saxum]

As for how those atrocities impact Native Americans today, I think many of them liken it to the way many in the Jewish community view the Holocaust; in a "never forget" fashion.

And do not suggest a racially insensitive name connected to the owner of the Washington Foreskins rather than one connected to the American Indians, blacks, etc for if you do you will get warning point; the owner's ethnic group is a protected one.