'I was born a poor black child'

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

if i buy you guys a book will you read it?

 

im a disabled poor guy but i would be happy as hell to shell out a measly five bucks to try to get you to walk into the light on this issue

 

i read somewhere that this book was required reading in some college courses. i never checked that out but i can see why it would be. there is a faction out there that freely admits we have a problem with too many black ass holes right now. note this is similar to the problem we USED to have with too many white ass holes that werent getting called out for their ass holery. this is a legitimate problem that just keeps hurting our black communities and thus the collective at large

 

mr starkes is just an average black man, accountant i think, that got tired of the blatant bull ѕhit and started writing books calling out ass hole blacks for what they are. his first one is mostly about the violent ass hole blacks, his second is about the race grievance exploiters like al sharpon and blm. hes very very blunt, he chooses to just call that violent faction ni99ers, similar to chris rock. in fact, all these authors i mention call out that ass hole faction, though they do it in different ways with different terms. but they are pointing out the poison that currently infects too much of our blackness for what it is

 

this is just a reality that we have to admit. mr starkes is blunt, while mr sowell is brilliantly more subtle. i would love to buy you some of his books but they are much more expensive. and mr starkes does do a good job with his sledgehammer approach, too. at least it would get you started to thinking about how to push yourself past this ridiculous mental block that blacks are above any criticism or its racist

oops forget the link

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Un-Civil-War-Confronting-Subculture-African-American-ebook/dp/B00BMHY5R4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1488468075&sr=8-3&keywords=taleeb+starkes

 

if you promise you will actually read it i will send you a voucher to get this on your device. just pm me your email

 

Holy ****, that's a real thing?

 

drug policy

 

If you're talking about disproportionate sentencing, I think you're wrong.

 

That's an -economic- thing, not a -racial- thing.

 

I'd wager that if middle class blacks and whites caught with marijuana were compared, the imprisonment outcome would likely be the same.

[DC Tom]

 

Holy ****, that's a real thing?

 

Yes. Meatheads really exist.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

Yes. Meatheads really exist.

 

I meant that book.

 

 

could you imagine if a white guy wrote a book with that title?

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

Then who said this? Your alter-ego? Someone sign in under your name? Were you drunk?

 

I have zero interest in having a conversation with a black man about his experiences as a black man.

 

A black man is an individual right?

Christmas, it's like talking to a rock. Either that or someone approaching gatorman's level of intellectual dishonesty.

 

I'll note that you quoted me out of context. Had you not done so, it would read like this:

 

"I'd be interested in having a conversation with Morgan Freeman about his experiences as Morgan Freeman. I have zero interest in having a conversation with a black man about his experiences as a black man."

 

Which communicates an entirely different idea than the one you're trying to pin on me.

 

Given that, and the fact that you can't/won't answer my very direct questions about defining the "black experience", I think you're just about done making a fool of yourself here.

 

Honestly, it's most of them. Although some of them are suffering from "residual" institutional racism: aka what used to be codified set the stage for where we are today.

 

Things like criminal justice (drug policy, policing models, brutality, sentencing, slave labor protected by incarceration, etc), housing policy, voting policy, redistricting, etc. All have and/or had (to a degree such that the effects remain relevant) serious racial inequities.

 

Frankly, something as basic as the "institution" of civil discourse in this country has serious racism issues.

 

If you'd like to discuss any of these issues, I'd suggest making a separate thread and we can (hopefully) have a productive discussion.

 

Per your request.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

 

Holy ****, that's a real thing?

 

If you're talking about disproportionate sentencing, I think you're wrong.

 

That's an -economic- thing, not a -racial- thing.

 

I'd wager that if middle class blacks and whites caught with marijuana were compared, the imprisonment outcome would likely be the same.

 

1) I don't think that "economic thing" and "racial thing" are mutually exclusive. There's no reason something can't be driven by both factors. Particularly given the significant social overlap between the two.

 

2) There have been a number of studies that have controlled for those things (income, frequency of offense, etc) that have still found disproportionate sentencing when other factors are controlled. They could obviously be wrong but I found them rather compelling. Although its been a minute since Ive read them so its possible the literature has changed.

 

3) Specifically with respect to drug policy, its pretty tough to argue its an economics thing given the stated intentions of the Nixon administration in setting off the "War on Drugs." Even conservative firebrands like Newt see the serious criminal justice issues of treating crack cocaine offenses differently than powdered cocaine offenses.

 

I should clarify right now what I mean when I talk about institutional racism so people don't get the wrong idea:

 

I do not ascribe to the idea that the vast majority of US cultural institutions are actively and aggressively racist. I think its much more insidious than that. A huge portion of it stems from the legacy of slavery, the greatest of moral ills in our country's history. An institution so destructive that we've essentially never been able to regain balance. And I don't know that we ever will. Because American society did a serviceable job marginalizing explicit, hate-fueled racism but that just resulted in decades of "work-arounds." Explicit white superiority morphed into other forms. And we're at a point where the mere mention of the long-lasting effects of these policies brings out resentment from all sides.

 

I think many of those iniquities are still present, albeit in less powerful forms. And in more self-delusional forms. I think there are many racists who would loathe the idea of admitting that they're racist. They rest on the distinction set forth in that there amazon book up there^ Or they talk in hushed tones about "no, he's not like them. He's one of the good ones." They've incorporated this idea of blackness being equal to criminality or low class or poverty-stricken into their world view. Not EXPLICITLY, but through upbringing and social norms among white folks.

 

And I'll admit, I suffer from some of those things too. I've "joked" about things that are objectively repugnant. I've had thoughts that are essentially impulses that I've had issues with upon reflecting for like three seconds after the thought passes. Some folks would call that "white guilt." Whereas I prefer to think of it as self-reflection and simply trying to get to the motivations of what is a huge social problem in this country. If that's "white guilt" then so be it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

I think many of those iniquities are still present, albeit in less powerful forms. And in more self-delusional forms. I think there are many racists who would loathe the idea of admitting that they're racist. They rest on the distinction set forth in that there amazon book up there^ Or they talk in hushed tones about "no, he's not like them. He's one of the good ones." They've incorporated this idea of blackness being equal to criminality or low class or poverty-stricken into their world view. Not EXPLICITLY, but through upbringing and social norms among white folks.

 

And I'll admit, I suffer from some of those things too. I've "joked" about things that are objectively repugnant. I've had thoughts that are essentially impulses that I've had issues with upon reflecting for like three seconds after the thought passes. Some folks would call that "white guilt." Whereas I prefer to think of it as self-reflection and simply trying to get to the motivations of what is a huge social problem in this country. If that's "white guilt" then so be it.

 

No, it's pretty much white guilt and fear of being called a racist.

 

Racism is the new communism, and the latest iteration of the "civil rights" movement is nothing more than McCarthyism. Period.

 

Don't be afraid. I'm not.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

 

No, it's pretty much white guilt and fear of being called a racist.

 

Racism is the new communism, and the latest iteration of the "civil rights" movement is nothing more than McCarthyism. Period.

 

Don't be afraid. I'm not.

......

 

Welp. This post isnt all that promising for the discussion

 

(edited for clarity)

Edited March 3, 2017 by DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

......

 

Welp. This isn't a very promising post.

Why? It's the truth.

 

I'm tired of the "white privilege" lie. My family never owned a slave, they didn't even arrive in this country until after 1910 for the most part. And yet somehow I'm supposed to feel guilty about slavery or the eradication of the native population?

 

Nope, sorry. Not buying it. And I'm certainly NOT going to apologize for anything I'm not responsible for.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

Why? It's the truth.

 

I'm tired of the "white privilege" lie. My family never owned a slave, they didn't even arrive in this country until after 1910 for the most part. And yet somehow I'm supposed to feel guilty about slavery or the eradication of the native population?

 

Nope, sorry. Not buying it. And I'm certainly NOT going to apologize for anything I'm not responsible for.

 

With all due respect, this comment suggests you don't have a very good understanding of the issue. And further suggests that you don't care much to consider, let alone understand, the issue.

 

That's fine. Totally your choice. An unfortunate one nonetheless.

[IDBillzFan]

 

With all due respect, this comment suggests you don't have a very good understanding of the issue. And further suggests that you don't care much to consider, let alone understand, the issue.

 

That's fine. Totally your choice. An unfortunate one nonetheless.

 

I genuinely a lot of minority friends who think the white privilege thing is embarrassing and damaging to minorities as well as whites.

 

Should I tell them they just don't understand the issue?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

 

With all due respect, this comment suggests you don't have a very good understanding of the issue. And further suggests that you don't care much to consider, let alone understand, the issue.

 

That's fine. Totally your choice. An unfortunate one nonetheless.

 

You're damn right I don't care to consider it. Because it's patent nonsense. There are actual institutions and laws giving minorities preferential treatment in this country. That's a fact. Everything else (especially what you hear from the BLM crowd) is anecdotal and lacking in any fact.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

 

I genuinely a lot of minority friends who think the white privilege thing is embarrassing and damaging to minorities as well as whites.

 

Should I tell them they just don't understand the issue?

 

Perhaps. I'd have to speak with them about their underlying rationale. Perhaps they (and you?) don't understand what "white privilege" means. That's usually the most common thing I see when people rage about WP.

 

I'll say this though: the notion that the status of a given speaker altering the truth value of the statement being offered is kind of ridiculous. If your minority friends say things that arent correct, their status as minorities doesnt make them correct.

 

You're damn right I don't care to consider it. Because it's patent nonsense. There are actual institutions and laws giving minorities preferential treatment in this country. That's a fact. Everything else (especially what you hear from the BLM crowd) is anecdotal and lacking in any fact.

 

You're entitled to believe what you'd like. Just a shame that your mistaken beliefs have actual real world consequences.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

You're entitled to believe what you'd like. Just a shame that your mistaken beliefs have actual real world consequences.

And here we see the truth. You're not interested in actual conversation. You're interested in enforcing the new Orthodox thinking.

[Azalin]

 

Perhaps they (and you?) don't understand what "white privilege" means. That's usually the most common thing I see when people rage about WP.

 

 

I've seen plenty of accusations of white privilege (and have in fact had the phrase used on me before), but never seen anyone actually define "white privilege". I would be interested in hearing a proper definition, if you would be so kind as to indulge me.

[IDBillzFan]

 

Perhaps. I'd have to speak with them about their underlying rationale. Perhaps they (and you?) don't understand what "white privilege" means. That's usually the most common thing I see when people rage about WP. \

 

Funny.

 

We think the most common thing you see when people disagree about white privilege is that it's a ridiculous SJW canard that pisses all over every single minority who has carved a successful life for themselves.

 

Let me know how white privilege accounts for 78% of all black children being born out of wedlock -- one of the biggest contributors to their poverty.

 

Let me know how white privilege accounts for 52% of black males dropping out of high school and foregoing a diploma -- the other big contributor to their poverty.

 

You don't have a definition of white privilege that fixes those two massive problems facing blacks today. In fact, even when successful black men and women point this out, what happens? The left attacks.

 

Uncle Tom! Get back on the porch, monkey! Or what was that recent one? Mediocre Negros?

 

Yeah. White privilege is the problem.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

 

I've seen plenty of accusations of white privilege (and have in fact had the phrase used on me before), but never seen anyone actually define "white privilege". I would be interested in hearing a proper definition, if you would be so kind as to indulge me.

 

1) I like your Lovecraft sig.

 

2) I think many folks think white privilege is used to denote this idea that white people are more affluent or well-off or prosperous in general. That by being born "white" theres this assumption that you had a relatively easy upbringing or whatever. That idea is clearly false on multiple levels.

 

Instead, I think "white privilege" is reflective of the American reality that to a large degree, being white affords you a number of "luxuries" that minorities don't receive. The biggest among them is the lack of a sense of otherness. We're historically a "white" country. Built by white men, engineered and conceived of by white men, populated by white men, etc. Blacks were initially property (yes, I know some whites were too) and upon being "freed" still could not shake off their blackness. Functionally, black folk were subdivided into a discrete legal class in the south for a 100 years after slavery was ended. In the north, they were still a discrete "other" class but more in a social/civil engineering way. The minute the law reacted to comingle whites and blacks more frequently, huge portions of white people simply relocated to live among other white people. To a certain extent, we still see those things today.

 

The "privilege" comes in the difference in experience walking around this country as a person of color vs. a person of whiteness. The different built-in assumptions that are applied to each class based on our culture and experience. It can be as powerful as the association between blackness and criminality. Or something smaller like the association of black folks with being loud or unruly. And the absolute worst part about it is that those associations essentially form a feedback loop of resentment. White folks see black folks as more prone to criminality. So when they see a crime committed by a black person (lets not get into how media affects this) it essentially reinforces a baseline belief. Which leads to trepidation on the part of white folks dealing with black folks. Which just emphasizes the feelings of otherness by black folks which leads to more resentment. It's toxic.

 

It's the frequently treatment of blacks by whites as blacks needing to "pass muster" to gain baseline social respect. White folks usually don't have to do that. The presumption starts off neutral, if not positive. By acting out, white folks ostracize themselves from friend groups, etc. It's like an inverse relationship.

 

I mean, this is a pretty big topic and I'm sure I'm a bit rambly here. And i'm by no means an expert. I'm just a white dude from WNY. But I feel like i've had a pretty broad array of experiences, consumed a decent amount of materials on the subject and I like to think I can be objective.

 

Funny.

 

We think the most common thing you see when people disagree about white privilege is that it's a ridiculous SJW canard that pisses all over every single minority who has carved a successful life for themselves.

 

Let me know how white privilege accounts for 78% of all black children being born out of wedlock -- one of the biggest contributors to their poverty.

 

Let me know how white privilege accounts for 52% of black males dropping out of high school and foregoing a diploma -- the other big contributor to their poverty.

 

You don't have a definition of white privilege that fixes those two massive problems facing blacks today. In fact, even when successful black men and women point this out, what happens? The left attacks.

 

Uncle Tom! Get back on the porch, monkey! Or what was that recent one? Mediocre Negros?

 

Yeah. White privilege is the problem.

 

Well, these are relatively straightforward answers. You're simply describing EFFECTS of institutional racism as CAUSES of black underachievement.

 

These sorts of ideas essentially box you into a corner. Because your objection to single-parent households in black communities has to have a "why." WHY are there more single-parent households in black communities? Your theory of causation necessarily entails that it is blackness itself that is driving these forces. That if blacks would stop getting divorced, stop dropping out of college, they'd finally get ahead.

 

Leaving aside the unfortunate reality that by the time blacks were "free" to pursue their own self-interest in a broad manner, the country had already been largely colonized and developed, and further leaving aside the reality of generations of wealth accumulation that white folks were privy to that black folks had zero access to, the objective reality is that the demographic splits between whites and blacks in the conditions you've called out reinforce the notion of the achievement gap.

 

Single parent white households are significantly more "productive" than single parent black households.

Whites without high school diplomas make as much blacks WITH high school diplomas.

 

If these are the only things driving the achievement gap we'd see more comparable numbers. But we don't. Because we're dealing with the effects of a society that engineered disparate racial treatment during the largest periods of wealth gains in its history. It's like playing Monopoloy, letting one player go around the board half a dozen times and then letting player 2 start playing the game already in progress.

And FTR - "mediocre negroes" was an unfortunate choice of words, obviously. But its essentially a response to this idea that conservative outlets seem to push: that if a black man or woman comes out and disagrees with racism, that racism isnt real. The idea of black sponsorship being evidence of a non-issue. An idea that you floated earlier.

[Chef Jim]

Christmas, it's like talking to a rock. Either that or someone approaching gatorman's level of intellectual dishonesty.

 

I'll note that you quoted me out of context. Had you not done so, it would read like this:

 

"I'd be interested in having a conversation with Morgan Freeman about his experiences as Morgan Freeman. I have zero interest in having a conversation with a black man about his experiences as a black man."

 

 

 

Well to this dumb rock your quote still sounds pretty idiotic even taken in context. I would have been a great quote had you stopped at the first sentence. You're second sentence is very telling or just very poorly worded.

 

Why do you have ZERO interest in having a conversation with a black man regarding his experiences as a black man?

 

Oh no. The great and mighty Tasker has made a fool.

[IDBillzFan]

 

Well, these are relatively straightforward answers. You're simply describing EFFECTS of institutional racism as CAUSES of black underachievement.

 

These sorts of ideas essentially box you into a corner. Because your objection to single-parent households in black communities has to have a "why." WHY are there more single-parent households in black communities? Your theory of causation necessarily entails that it is blackness itself that is driving these forces. That if blacks would stop getting divorced, stop dropping out of college, they'd finally get ahead.

 

Leaving aside the unfortunate reality that by the time blacks were "free" to pursue their own self-interest in a broad manner, the country had already been largely colonized and developed, and further leaving aside the reality of generations of wealth accumulation that white folks were privy to that black folks had zero access to, the objective reality is that the demographic splits between whites and blacks in the conditions you've called out reinforce the notion of the achievement gap.

 

Single parent white households are significantly more "productive" than single parent black households.

Whites without high school diplomas make as much blacks WITH high school diplomas.

 

If these are the only things driving the achievement gap we'd see more comparable numbers. But we don't. Because we're dealing with the effects of a society that engineered disparate racial treatment during the largest periods of wealth gains in its history. It's like playing Monopoloy, letting one player go around the board half a dozen times and then letting player 2 start playing the game already in progress.

And FTR - "mediocre negroes" was an unfortunate choice of words, obviously. But its essentially a response to this idea that conservative outlets seem to push: that if a black man or woman comes out and disagrees with racism, that racism isnt real. The idea of black sponsorship being evidence of a non-issue. An idea that you floated earlier.

 

You're trying to qualify some things and explain away others.

 

I'm not explaining effects of institutional racism. I'm giving you simple truths. The reality is that if more blacks stayed married (hell, forget stayed married...GOT married and stayed married) and stayed in school and actively looked for work, they absolutely WOULD get ahead. How can you suggest otherwise? The stats of kids with diplomas versus kid with no diploma are everywhere.

 

Your Monopoly concept, while appreciated, is equally flawed because you're starting both players at Go in the ready position. We don't start in the ready position. We are prepared for the ready position by the people who birth us. There is not a single option for living that is available for a white baby that is not available for a black baby. Period.

 

There is food. There is shelter. There is government support should they falter. There are countless churches at the ready to help anyone with a problem. There are public schools which both of those babies can grow up and attend. Same school. Same time. Same food program. Same curriculum. Same teachers. Same bus. Same everything.

 

By the time they are not longer babies and entering junior high, what racism is keeping that black child from making to the ready position? What racism is getting that black girl pregnant but the white girl moving forward?

 

None. There is a parent, single or otherwise, and the success of that child is directly tied to the parent who chose to bring that child into the world and get it to the ready position. The white man didn't keep that kid down. Their parent did.

 

The sooner we STOP blaming racism and START teaching more parents about self-responsibility and self-accountability, the sooner you will see those numbers go down. And the parents must teach their children that having children is something you do AFTER you reach the ready position, not before.

 

But please think wider because life has never started on the Go spot at the ready position. Once they get there, the only person allowing them to not move in a forward position is themselves.

 

And lastly, "mediocre negros" are more than unfortunate words. These are specifically chosen by educated blacks to shame other blacks who refuse to think like them. It has NOTHING to do with conservatives and EVERYTHING to do with the far left, which loves to label and shame anyone who opposes them. We can pick that topic up at another time.,

 

Welcome to the board. Good to have you here.

[Azalin]

 

1) I like your Lovecraft sig.

 

2) I think many folks think white privilege is used to denote this idea that white people are more affluent or well-off or prosperous in general. That by being born "white" theres this assumption that you had a relatively easy upbringing or whatever. That idea is clearly false on multiple levels.

 

Instead, I think "white privilege" is reflective of the American reality that to a large degree, being white affords you a number of "luxuries" that minorities don't receive. The biggest among them is the lack of a sense of otherness. We're historically a "white" country. Built by white men, engineered and conceived of by white men, populated by white men, etc. Blacks were initially property (yes, I know some whites were too) and upon being "freed" still could not shake off their blackness. Functionally, black folk were subdivided into a discrete legal class in the south for a 100 years after slavery was ended. In the north, they were still a discrete "other" class but more in a social/civil engineering way. The minute the law reacted to comingle whites and blacks more frequently, huge portions of white people simply relocated to live among other white people. To a certain extent, we still see those things today.

 

The "privilege" comes in the difference in experience walking around this country as a person of color vs. a person of whiteness. The different built-in assumptions that are applied to each class based on our culture and experience. It can be as powerful as the association between blackness and criminality. Or something smaller like the association of black folks with being loud or unruly. And the absolute worst part about it is that those associations essentially form a feedback loop of resentment. White folks see black folks as more prone to criminality. So when they see a crime committed by a black person (lets not get into how media affects this) it essentially reinforces a baseline belief. Which leads to trepidation on the part of white folks dealing with black folks. Which just emphasizes the feelings of otherness by black folks which leads to more resentment. It's toxic.

 

It's the frequently treatment of blacks by whites as blacks needing to "pass muster" to gain baseline social respect. White folks usually don't have to do that. The presumption starts off neutral, if not positive. By acting out, white folks ostracize themselves from friend groups, etc. It's like an inverse relationship.

 

I mean, this is a pretty big topic and I'm sure I'm a bit rambly here. And i'm by no means an expert. I'm just a white dude from WNY. But I feel like i've had a pretty broad array of experiences, consumed a decent amount of materials on the subject and I like to think I can be objective.

 

Thank you. That was a significantly more detailed response than I expected, and I appreciate your taking the time to answer so thoroughly.

 

The reason I asked for you to define white privilege is because I wanted to see how your definition would square with mine. As I mentioned above, I was accused of being biased because of my WP. I mentioned it in a different thread several months ago, but in brief, I was part of a discussion at my local bar about the BLM march in Dallas last year where five police officers were killed. I happened to mention that I found it a bit ironic that police officers were slain who were there to protect protestors as much as to control the crowd and keep the peace. A young woman overheard me and told me that the irony I perceived was due to my "cis-gendered white privilege".

 

A week or two later I was at the same bar, and mentioned the incident to the bar tender - a friend of mine who happens to be an Asian-American lesbian. She told me that she thought that was a crappy thing to say to me, but she also said "but c'mon, you've got to admit that white people have it easier than non-whites". My thought was "okay, fair enough. But that's what I call racism. It's not so much that I have an easier time because I'm white, it's that non-whites often experience resistance and difficulty based purely on the prejudice and racism of others". That led me to wonder - are white privilege and racism against non-whites not two sides of the same coin?

 

That's why I asked you. I have difficulty seeing it as an issue of my privilege, but instead as injustice against non-whites. And if that's the case, is deploying the tag "white privilege" not just another way to divide people further?

[TakeYouToTasker]

I think many folks think white privilege is used to denote this idea that white people are more affluent or well-off or prosperous in general. That by being born "white" theres this assumption that you had a relatively easy upbringing or whatever. That idea is clearly false on multiple levels.

 

Interesting.

 

Would you mind expanding on this please? If minimally convenient with sources please.

Edited March 4, 2017 by TakeYouToTasker