Article: E.J. is beating out Cassel and Taylor in OTA's

[metzelaars_lives]

You're right. My math is off. He would have been 6-6. Let me know if you honestly think he would have won against them in NE, with Brady, with 1st teamers, with deflated balls.

 

Why not debate it? I think there are games that EJ could have won that Orton didn't. He was able to pull 7 wins. I think EJ could have taken the same games that Orton did. Minus the Packers. Jets (x2), DET, MIN, CLE. That's 5 games not including the Pats finale and Green Bay. Also doesn't include the Chiefs, Dolphins and Raiders. All games that Orton should have won.

EJ Manuel would have been 0-4 if in addition to his two single digit QBR performances (Orton had none of those) he played the Patriots twice and in the second game the Patriots didn't rest their starters, instead of playing the Bears and Dolphins. For Christ's sake, Manuel was 2-2 and Orton was 7-5. That's it. And there's absolutely no way on God's green earth that EJ Manuel would have won that Detroit game, for whatever that's worth.

 

EDIT: Here's the bottom line. Orton sucked too. Not nearly as bad as Manuel but yes, he sucked. He was good in the Detroit game, the home New England game and the two Jets games but that's about it. I don't understand why the EJ dreamers keep holding onto this idea that because Orton also sucked that somehow that gives them hope that EJ Manuel will develop into a franchise QB. For the life of me, I can't understand what one has to do with the other. I've said it before but the big three reasons the EJ dreamers give for their blind faith are that he's only played 14 games (same number Tebow has), Doug Marrone is now coaching in Jacksonville and now my personal favorite, Orton sucked too. EJ Manuel could get cut and then Matt Cassel could suck this year too. Will that make EJ Manuel's stock go up even more? I can see it now: "well if EJ never got cut, he could've won that Bengals game too..."

Edited June 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[C.Biscuit97]

EJ Manuel would have been 0-4 if in addition to his two single digit QBR performances (Orton had none of those) he played the Patriots twice and in the second game the Patriots didn't rest their starters, instead of playing the Bears and Dolphins. For Christ's sake, Manuel was 2-2 and Orton was 7-5. That's it. And there's absolutely no way on God's green earth that EJ Manuel would have won that Detroit game, for whatever that's worth.

 

EDIT: Here's the bottom line. Orton sucked too. Not nearly as bad as Manuel but yes, he sucked. He was good in the Detroit game, the home New England game and the two Jets games but that's about it. I don't understand why the EJ dreamers keep holding onto this idea that because Orton also sucked that somehow that gives them hope that EJ Manuel will develop into a franchise QB. For the life of me, I can't understand what one has to do with the other. I've said it before but the big three reasons the EJ dreamers give for their blind faith are that he's only played 14 games (same number Tebow has), Doug Marrone is now coaching in Jacksonville and now my personal favorite, Orton sucked too. EJ Manuel could get cut and then Matt Cassel could suck this year too. Will that make EJ Manuel's stock go up even more?

This post is a load of crap and I think you know it. In his only start against the Pats, Manuel left the field with a lead in the 4th quarter. In the Detroit game, we didn't score a td until the 4th quarter and their kicker missed 3 fgs. Again, they had one head to head opponent, Miami. We won the game with EJ and couldn't score a td with Orton. So stop making crap up.

 

But if EJ fails, you and FireChan will get your wish. you will be praised for your ability to trash a Bills player. You are fighting the good fight. You're a hero. Keep up the good fight!

[BuffaloHokie13]

us "LOVERS" are people OPEN to the idea that EJ could be good, or not. It is unproven with such a small sample size of games played. This is his 3rd season let us be open and see if he is a success or failure.

 

FTR We "LOVERS" have not said he is a top 10 QB. contrary to those who claim him a failure

No, you aren't. I brought up the first bad game that came to my head specifically in response to a question you asked and you dismissed me and the game entirely. You are absolutely not open to the idea he could be less than good. You also love to point out his small sample size, yet you belittle me and my thoughts on Tyrod. Where is his sample size?

[metzelaars_lives]

This post is a load of crap and I think you know it. In his only start against the Pats, Manuel left the field with a lead in the 4th quarter. In the Detroit game, we didn't score a td until the 4th quarter and their kicker missed 3 fgs. Again, they had one head to head opponent, Miami. We won the game with EJ and couldn't score a td with Orton. So stop making crap up.

 

But if EJ fails, you and FireChan will get your wish. you will be praised for your ability to trash a Bills player. You are fighting the good fight. You're a hero. Keep up the good fight!

Ha. EJ Manuel played so incredibly bad the previous two games and had lost any shred of confidence he still had left. Orton came in and played a pretty solid game for having just come in off the bench. He threw for over 300 yards and made some clutch throws, including the prettiest pass anyone threw all season down the sideline to Goodwin, which led to a TD. Yes, they didn't score a ton of points but they were on the road against the #1 defense in the league at the time. And yes, their kicker missed a bunch of field and goals and yes, agreed, the Bills wouldn't have won had he not but the bottom line is that they won the game and they wouldn't have won it the way Manuel was playing- missed field goals included. Everyone on this entire website was happy with Orton's performance after that game and not one person was questioning the move to bench Manuel at that point. Is that the EJ dreamers' newest argument: EJ Manuel is good because the Detroit kicker missed a bunch of field goals?

 

And also, I'm sure they would've beat Miami at home with Orton and I'm sure they would've lost that night game on the road at Miami with Manuel. It's like, yes, Orton sucked in that Miami game, agreed. But what in the world did Manuel show you in his last two starts to indicate he would've been any better? Orton sucked too is not a viable argument in your crusade that EJ Manuel can be a good QB in this league.

 

And also, why is EJ Manuel the only Bills player you're not allowed to be critical about? If Seantrel Henderson completely blows through four games next year and you say that you're not sure he has what it takes and maybe it's time he sits and lets someone else take a turn, I'm going to make sure and say, "Hey CBiscuit! Keep fighting the good fight. I hope belittling Seantrel Henderson makes you feel better about yourself. You should be praised for your ability to trash a Bills player..."

Edited June 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

This post is a load of crap and I think you know it. In his only start against the Pats, Manuel left the field with a lead in the 4th quarter. In the Detroit game, we didn't score a td until the 4th quarter and their kicker missed 3 fgs. Again, they had one head to head opponent, Miami. We won the game with EJ and couldn't score a td with Orton. So stop making crap up.

 

But if EJ fails, you and FireChan will get your wish. you will be praised for your ability to trash a Bills player. You are fighting the good fight. You're a hero. Keep up the good fight!

Sorry Metz, but I agree with Biscuit.

No, you aren't. I brought up the first bad game that came to my head specifically in response to a question you asked and you dismissed me and the game entirely. You are absolutely not open to the idea he could be less than good. You also love to point out his small sample size, yet you belittle me and my thoughts on Tyrod. Where is his sample size?

Why is it y'all point to that one game where he had a pick 6 and the team lost by 6? Then you guys wanted Gino Smith over EJ with multiple pick 6's!!!

You're 100% right. Without Orton's 17/ 27 for 158 yards, 0 tds, 1 int, there's no way we beat the Packers. Dude just wins.

So you are "lover" if you want a former 1st round QB to work out for the Bills? Brilliant stuff.

:thumbsup:

[BuffaloHokie13]

Why is it y'all point to that one game where he had a pick 6 and the team lost by 6? Then you guys wanted Gino Smith over EJ with multiple pick 6's!!!

Fine, how about Tampa Bay? And no, I never wanted Geno Smith. Your act is really pathetic and you need to stop projecting broad strokes onto anyone with a rational attitude.

[metzelaars_lives]

Sorry Metz, but I agree with Biscuit.

Why is it y'all point to that one game where he had a pick 6 and the team lost by 6? Then you guys wanted Gino Smith over EJ with multiple pick 6's!!!

:thumbsup:

What do you agree w/ Biscuit about? Then again, you said that the Bills would've finished 12-4 last year had they not benched Manuel so why am I arguing with you anyway. You go out of your way to make it sound like someone who doesn't think that EJ Manuel will develop into a starting QB in this league is a "hater" and then you make statements like "Manuel would've won every game Orton did last year plus three additional ones" and we're not supposed to think you're insane. Let me ask you this: are you EJ Manuel? And who said they'd rather have Geno Smith? All I've said is that you can't mock a guy like Geno Smith and then adamantly defend Manuel. They're pretty much in the exact same class of QB's at this juncture.

Edited June 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[FireChan]

Metz, please don't reference them as EJ dreamers. It's just not worth diving into the childish muck.

Sorry Metz, but I agree with Biscuit.

 

Why is it y'all point to that one game where he had a pick 6 and the team lost by 6? Then you guys wanted Gino Smith over EJ with multiple pick 6's!!!

 

:thumbsup:

That game is referenced so much because it was EJ's last game, and his worst game. It also demonstrated some very bad issues.

 

If EJ flames out, that Houston game will be pointed at as the beginning of the end, similar to Trent's Arizona game, and Fitz vs. Tennessee.

[Best Player Available]

What do you agree w/ Biscuit about? Then again, you said that the Bills would've finished 12-4 last year had they not benched Manuel so why am I arguing with you anyway. You go out of your way to make it sound like someone who doesn't think that EJ Manuel will develop into a starting QB in this league is a "hater" and then you make statements like "Manuel would've won every game Orton did last year plus three additional ones" and we're not supposed to think you're insane. Let me ask you this: are you EJ Manuel? And who said they'd rather have Geno Smith? All I've said is that you can't mock a guy like Geno Smith and then adamantly defend Manuel. They're pretty much in the exact same class of QB's at this juncture.

Nice post. it is becoming tiresome. irritating really. Although I would love to play poker with Him.

[hondo in seattle]

EJ Manuel would have been 0-4 if in addition to his two single digit QBR performances (Orton had none of those) he played the Patriots twice and in the second game the Patriots didn't rest their starters, instead of playing the Bears and Dolphins. For Christ's sake, Manuel was 2-2 and Orton was 7-5. That's it. And there's absolutely no way on God's green earth that EJ Manuel would have won that Detroit game, for whatever that's worth.

 

EDIT: Here's the bottom line. Orton sucked too. Not nearly as bad as Manuel but yes, he sucked. He was good in the Detroit game, the home New England game and the two Jets games but that's about it. I don't understand why the EJ dreamers keep holding onto this idea that because Orton also sucked that somehow that gives them hope that EJ Manuel will develop into a franchise QB. For the life of me, I can't understand what one has to do with the other. I've said it before but the big three reasons the EJ dreamers give for their blind faith are that he's only played 14 games (same number Tebow has), Doug Marrone is now coaching in Jacksonville and now my personal favorite, Orton sucked too. EJ Manuel could get cut and then Matt Cassel could suck this year too. Will that make EJ Manuel's stock go up even more? I can see it now: "well if EJ never got cut, he could've won that Bengals game too..."

 

 

 

I'm not saying this to defend EJ but I think QBR is a flawed stat and almost worthless as a gauge of QBs. It attempts to evaluate how "clutch" certain plays are and weighs them accordingly. It also attempts to divide credit for passes among the QB, receivers and blockers and then weigh the play accordingly.

 

There's just too much subjectivity and mathematical gymnastics in the QBR.

 

To give just one example of the goofiness of the QBR. One week in 2011 Tebow had a higher QBR than Aaron Rodgers. Tebow went 4 for 10 for 79 yards and a TD in a loss. Rodgers went 26 for 39 for 396 yards and two TDs in a win. Any system that rates Tebow's performance higher is clearly broken.

 

Criticize EJ all you want but don't use the QBR to support your cause.

[metzelaars_lives]

 

 

I'm not saying this to defend EJ but I think QBR is a flawed stat and almost worthless as a gauge of QBs. It attempts to evaluate how "clutch" certain plays are and weighs them accordingly. It also attempts to divide credit for passes among the QB, receivers and blockers and then weigh the play accordingly.

 

There's just too much subjectivity and mathematical gymnastics in the QBR.

 

To give just one example of the goofiness of the QBR. One week in 2011 Tebow had a higher QBR than Aaron Rodgers. Tebow went 4 for 10 for 79 yards and a TD in a loss. Rodgers went 26 for 39 for 396 yards and two TDs in a win. Any system that rates Tebow's performance higher is clearly broken.

 

Criticize EJ all you want but don't use the QBR to support your cause.

I don't disagree with you at all. Let me re-phrase that: the two games in which he absolutely sucked. And I'm also sick and tired of the "oh the Houston game, it was just one game, JJ Watt was unstoppable that day, Joe Flacco sucked one time against the Texans too..." narrative. HE WAS EVERY BIT AS BAD THE WEEK BEFORE AGAINST SAN DIEGO.

Edited June 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Fine, how about Tampa Bay? And no, I never wanted Geno Smith. Your act is really pathetic and you need to stop projecting broad strokes onto anyone with a rational attitude.

have I not said if the shoe fits wear it?

 

If it does not fit you then I suggest you relax a bit.

 

Why people (broad stroke) expect a rookie to exceed the expectations of a 10 year vet is astounding.

 

YES it would be SUPER GREAT to get a phenom at QB, but that does not happen all of the time. You pick a player and develop him for 3 years or so, and then keep him if he's good or move on if he is not!

Edited June 19, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[thebandit27]

I don't disagree with you at all. Let me re-phrase that: the two games in which he absolutely sucked. And I'm also sick and tired of the "oh the Houston game, it was just one game, JJ Watt was unstoppable that day, Joe Flacco sucked one time against the Texans too..." narrative. HE WAS EVERY BIT AS BAD THE WEEK BEFORE AGAINST SAN DIEGO.

 

EJ had two stinkers that followed two games of pretty solid play last year.

 

It's been a completely mixed bag for EJ through 2 seasons. Some very good (i.e. his home game against the Jets as a rookie, and the final 3 Qs against Jax), some very bad (Houston, TB), and a whole bunch of in between.

 

That said, I understand why he was benched last year, and it turned out to be the right move.

 

At the same time, that doesn't preclude him from becoming a solid player this year. Is it likely? IMO, no, it's not. Is it possible? Absolutely. Furthermore, I think EJ is the team's best chance to get good QB play this year.

[BuffaloHokie13]

have I not said if the shoe fits wear it?

 

If it does not fit you then I suggest you relax a bit.

 

Why people (broad stroke) expect a rookie to exceed the expectations of a 10 year vet is astounding.

 

YES it would be SUPER GREAT to get a phenom at QB, but that does not happen all of the time. You pick a layer and develop him for 3 years or so and then keep him if he's good or move on if he is not!

So you admit you're wearing really pathetic shoes?

 

I'm relaxed, you're the one slinging accusations.

 

I have no idea what you're referring to here, but go ahead and paint me into that opinion you want me to have again.

 

We have 2 QB's who are 25 years old and still developing on the team, why do you refuse to acknowledge one?

[thebandit27]

To give just one example of the goofiness of the QBR. One week in 2011 Tebow had a higher QBR than Aaron Rodgers. Tebow went 4 for 10 for 79 yards and a TD in a loss. Rodgers went 26 for 39 for 396 yards and two TDs in a win. Any system that rates Tebow's performance higher is clearly broken.

 

Criticize EJ all you want but don't use the QBR to support your cause.

 

EJ debate aside...this right here is why I dislike QBR.

[metzelaars_lives]

 

EJ had two stinkers that followed two games of pretty solid play last year.

 

It's been a completely mixed bag for EJ through 2 seasons. Some very good (i.e. his home game against the Jets as a rookie, and the final 3 Qs against Jax), some very bad (Houston, TB), and a whole bunch of in between.

 

That said, I understand why he was benched last year, and it turned out to be the right move.

 

At the same time, that doesn't preclude him from becoming a solid player this year. Is it likely? IMO, no, it's not. Is it possible? Absolutely. Furthermore, I think EJ is the team's best chance to get good QB play this year.

Agree with every word you said except that I think Cassel will give us the best chance to win this year and also what you have to add to his mixed bag on the field is his disaster of a 2014 offseason/preseason.

[OCinBuffalo]

If we are going to talk about one game(one stat, one whatever ), then why not one practice?

 

According to all media, EJ did very well yesterday, and Cassel and Taylor did not. Now, can anybody tell me that this piece of information is any more or less informative than anything else I've read in the last few pages? Go ahead and try. Should be good for a laugh.

 

-------------

 

Orton? WTF Orton? Orton didn't belong on the field the last 4-5 games of the year. Period. ALL of you saw Orton's awful, pre-sack fetal position "move", with the potential sacker still 4 yards away. Don't lie. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

EJ should have played after the first time Orton pulled his "move", because it screamed "I'm done with the NFL!". That's what a coach who is concerned more for his team, than himself, does. Hindsight is fairly clear on this one. Marrone is the type of coach who will cover his ass with his players. If he was serious about "building" something in WNY, he would have realized that Orton was going nowhere fast, and got EJ the game reps he required. Not to develop necessarily, but, to inform the organization as to whether he ever will, and, to take the risk that EJ plays better than Orton...and God Forbid...beat the damn Raiders and make the playoffs.

 

But taking that kind of risk left St. Doug potentially exposed. What exactly was his thinking, leading up to week 12, if not "cover my ass"? Was it: "Orton's gonna win the first playoff game on the road?" Of course not. So, why didn't he send EJ in right then and there? Simple: doing nothing means you can't be blamed for doing something.

[3rdand12]

Metz, please don't reference them as EJ dreamers. It's just not worth diving into the childish muck.

 

That game is referenced so much because it was EJ's last game, and his worst game. It also demonstrated some very bad issues.

 

If EJ flames out, that Houston game will be pointed at as the beginning of the end, similar to Trent's Arizona game, and Fitz vs. Tennessee.

That game is the last thing folks recall about EJ.

It was a nightmare to watch the kid come unglued. I will always always always say he "had " to be taken out and start Orton.

For whatever reasons , and please lets not do that, he pissed himself under pressure and knew it and could not turn it around. JJ Watt singlehandedly broke him down.

whether it was great defensive coaching, or very very poor Offensive coaching.

That game should be considered an extreme example for a "having a Bad Day"

[LeGOATski]

That game is the last thing folks recall about EJ.

It was a nightmare to watch the kid come unglued. I will always always always say he "had " to be taken out and start Orton.

For whatever reasons , and please lets not do that, he pissed himself under pressure and knew it and could not turn it around. JJ Watt singlehandedly broke him down.

whether it was great defensive coaching, or very very poor Offensive coaching.

That game should be considered an extreme example for a "having a Bad Day"

I think Tannehill's 37%, 82 yards, 3.0 avg, 7 sacks, and 0 points is even worse.

 

And that was in his 31st game, lol...

[metzelaars_lives]

I think Tannehill's 37%, 82 yards, 3.0 avg, 7 sacks, and 0 points is even worse.

 

And that was in his 31st game, lol...

This is getting so tiresome. JUST BECAUSE OTHER QUARTERBACKS HAVE BAD GAMES SOMETIMES DOES NOT MEAN THAT EJ MANUEL IS GOING TO BECOME A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK. Because Ryan Tannehill had a bad game one time does that mean you still believe JP Losman might still work out? For the millionth time the argument that many of us have against EJ Manuel developing into a franchise QB is not based solely on the Houston game. It is the fact that he clearly regressed all last offseason and then completely sucked for TWO games. He was just as bad against San Diego as he was against Houston. Remember what a big story it was when he had a good practice against the Steelers last summer?? That was pretty much his only good practice all last offseason. And then he was an abomination in the preseason as well. And if you think there's something funny about me bringing up practice, Manuel better damn sure show something in practice this offseason or he's out of a job altogether.