FireChan Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) A) so you are putting the blame for poor execution solely on EJ. B) my point is that the playbook didn't change whether it was EJ, Tuel, Lewis, Orton under center so he must not have had faith in any of them being able to execute a play. C)You're right, it's irrelevant. D) The QB coach in 2013 was Hackett. I don't know how much time he had to invest in coaching the QB's while also coaching the rest of the offense. The too many cooks in the kitchen excuse was possibly Hackett telling him to be more aggressive and Morrone telling him to play it safe. Just because he's telling him to play it safe doesn't mean that he was actually working with the QB (any of them) to develop. Whaley said himself that Marrone didn't coach him correctly but I'm sure you will chalk that up to Whaley trying to get another coach to work with his draft pick. Even though it might be just that, I can't help remember the training camp argument where Marrone yelled at them to fire him. A) Lion's share, yes. He's the QB, and he wasn't great. Who do you blame? Freddy? Stevie? Woods? B) Right. Are any of those QB's talented? Would you be confident with Thad Lewis? Saying that Marrone had the same confidence level with 3 other QB's who suck AND EJ is not a good sign for EJ. D) See, here's the thing. Whether EJ is playing conservatively or aggressively, he needs to be accurate. When he's checking down to Freddy, and throws it 2 feet off target so Fred can't catch it in stride, it isn't a matter of aggressiveness. It's a matter of ability. Many conflate these two. Many just want to se EJ "let loose." I highly suspect EJ "letting loose" will more closely resemble the Tampa game or Steelers game, instead of the Jets games. He has confidence issues, but that's not his only one. Marrone was not as conservative in 2013 as he was in 2014. And he had Tuel and freaking Thad Lewis under center in 2013. Why is that? Edited June 17, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 A) Lion's share, yes. He's the QB, and he wasn't great. Who do you blame? Freddy? Stevie? Woods? B) Right. Are any of those QB's talented? Would you be confident with Thad Lewis? Saying that Marrone had the same confidence level with 3 other QB's who suck AND EJ is not a good sign for EJ. D) See, here's the thing. Whether EJ is playing conservatively or aggressively, he needs to be accurate. When he's checking down to Freddy, and throws it 2 feet off target so Fred can't catch it in stride, it isn't a matter of aggressiveness. It's a matter of ability. Many conflate these two. Many just want to se EJ "let loose." I highly suspect EJ "letting loose" will more closely resemble the Tampa game or Steelers game, instead of the Jets games. He has confidence issues, but that's not his only one. Marrone was not as conservative in 2013 as he was in 2014. And he had Tuel and freaking Thad Lewis under center in 2013. Why is that? Let the record show agreement has been reached on point C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 D) See, here's the thing. Whether EJ is playing conservatively or aggressively, he needs to be accurate. When he's checking down to Freddy, and throws it 2 feet off target so Fred can't catch it in stride, it isn't a matter of aggressiveness. It's a matter of ability. Many conflate these two. Many just want to se EJ "let loose." I highly suspect EJ "letting loose" will more closely resemble the Tampa game or Steelers game, instead of the Jets games. He has confidence issues, but that's not his only one. I agree that the to are not the same but I suspect, although it is only opinion, that some of the inaccuracy (though clearly not all) is caused by timing problems that are at leas in part attributable to his overthinking things. The game hasn't slowed down and it didn't appear he was ever playing on instinct. Is that because he just always looks like that or because he was playing scared of the mistake (in keeping with a general Marrone conservatism)? Who knows? I think EJ playing "loose" will result in slightly better accuracy not slightly worse because I am hoping it will lead to him leaning on his instincts more.... but you might be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 A) Lion's share, yes. He's the QB, and he wasn't great. Who do you blame? Freddy? Stevie? Woods? B) Right. Are any of those QB's talented? Would you be confident with Thad Lewis? Saying that Marrone had the same confidence level with 3 other QB's who suck AND EJ is not a good sign for EJ. D) See, here's the thing. Whether EJ is playing conservatively or aggressively, he needs to be accurate. When he's checking down to Freddy, and throws it 2 feet off target so Fred can't catch it in stride, it isn't a matter of aggressiveness. It's a matter of ability. Many conflate these two. Many just want to se EJ "let loose." I highly suspect EJ "letting loose" will more closely resemble the Tampa game or Steelers game, instead of the Jets games. He has confidence issues, but that's not his only one. Marrone was not as conservative in 2013 as he was in 2014. And he had Tuel and freaking Thad Lewis under center in 2013. Why is that? A) I blame EJ also. I also blame the offensive line and coaching. They all share the blame. B) All three QB's had a combined 1 start. Not many people would have confidence given that factor. D) That's speculation that really can't be proven. For all you know it could be the exact opposite. Anyone's guess on Marrone's conservative nature in 2014. Maybe he was waiting for his opt out and wanted to play it safe and try to stack up some wins. I honestly think that was his reasoning for not playing EJ at the end of the season and played Orton to close out the season vs NE's 3rd stringers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Regarding EJ's accuracy problems, this quote from Todd Downing (EJ's QB coach last year) is telling: "People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate, it's because he has great aim with the football. It's not aim... Most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read." Reading between the lines, it seems like Downing was saying EJ had some problems being on time and throwing to the right spot in the read. Presumably, Downing was working on those issues with EJ last year. Hopefully, they're correctable. Regarding FireChan's contention that EJ didn't grasp the offense, Downing seemed to evaluate EJ very differently: "He knows plays like the back of his hand. Pre-snap checks, package play options and finding the mismatch were all things he had a firm grasp of heading into training camp." http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/EJ-Manuel-building-trust-into-his-game/87ea5dec-2434-4474-ad00-363b22f289a1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Have I told you people recently that all y'all crack me the hell up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Not recently, but thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Not recently, but thanks. 14 pages of hair splitting, gross exaggeration in every direction & general douchebaggery and rising. God, I love this place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 14 pages of hair splitting, gross exaggeration in every direction & general douchebaggery and rising. God, I love this place. What more could you want in life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I agree that the to are not the same but I suspect, although it is only opinion, that some of the inaccuracy (though clearly not all) is caused by timing problems that are at leas in part attributable to his overthinking things. The game hasn't slowed down and it didn't appear he was ever playing on instinct. Is that because he just always looks like that or because he was playing scared of the mistake (in keeping with a general Marrone conservatism)? Who knows? I think EJ playing "loose" will result in slightly better accuracy not slightly worse because I am hoping it will lead to him leaning on his instincts more.... but you might be right. Along the lines of what you are saying, I think EJ has been guilty, at times, of throwing the ball worried more about getting picked off, than in completing the pass. I think that comes with over-thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 What more could you want in life? To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women? The secret to happiness as told by CtB. Or as Genghis Khan put it: “The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) A) I blame EJ also. I also blame the offensive line and coaching. They all share the blame. B) All three QB's had a combined 1 start. Not many people would have confidence given that factor. D) That's speculation that really can't be proven. For all you know it could be the exact opposite. Anyone's guess on Marrone's conservative nature in 2014. Maybe he was waiting for his opt out and wanted to play it safe and try to stack up some wins. I honestly think that was his reasoning for not playing EJ at the end of the season and played Orton to close out the season vs NE's 3rd stringers. A) Agreed. I never thought EJ was the only problem with the offense, only that he IS a problem Two agreements back to back? I must be getting soft. B) Exactly! All those guys suck. Why wouldn't you be conservative with that crew at QB with a good defense? D) It's speculation that EJ's inaccuracy is direct evidence of his inaccuracy? Could it be because he's scared? Maybe. But he's inaccurate, period. The root cause is speculation, outside of his sloppy mechanics. The conflation comes with the assumption that all of EJ's problems stem from inaggressiveness/fear. My contention is speculation, but his accuracy is not. E) Our coach trying to win every game in the season by being conservative is a negative? Winning 9 games, through whatever method, is a bad thing? Outside of that, I can see that EJ playing a little in week 17 had some merit. Some posters I respect were against it, hoping for a clean slate for 2015. Regardless of Marrone's reasons in week 17, his reasons for week 5 had a ton of merit. And weeks 5-16. Orton wasn't good, he was conservative. What else was he gonna do when we were mathemtically alive? Pretend Orton was Brady like Chan did with Fitz and line up 5 wide on 4th and inches? Regarding EJ's accuracy problems, this quote from Todd Downing (EJ's QB coach last year) is telling: "People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate, it's because he has great aim with the football. It's not aim... Most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read." Reading between the lines, it seems like Downing was saying EJ had some problems being on time and throwing to the right spot in the read. Presumably, Downing was working on those issues with EJ last year. Hopefully, they're correctable. Regarding FireChan's contention that EJ didn't grasp the offense, Downing seemed to evaluate EJ very differently: "He knows plays like the back of his hand. Pre-snap checks, package play options and finding the mismatch were all things he had a firm grasp of heading into training camp." http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/EJ-Manuel-building-trust-into-his-game/87ea5dec-2434-4474-ad00-363b22f289a1 So, let's say he was inaccurate in 2014, and knew the plays in 2014. Okay. 14 pages of hair splitting, gross exaggeration in every direction & general douchebaggery and rising. God, I love this place. It's a real gas. Edited June 17, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Or as Genghis Khan put it: “The greatest happiness is to scatter your enemy, to drive him before you, to see his cities reduced to ashes, to see those who love him shrouded in tears, and to gather into your bosom his wives and daughters.” Is it wrong to feel this way about the Pats*? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 So have we decided if EJ is the cause for world hunger yet? Or is it just ebola? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) To crush your enemies -- See them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women? This is kind of what's going to happen around here when EJ flames out this offseason and maybe even gets cut. Either way, he's not winning the starting job. I just can't wait for this to be over and to be tailgating for Bills-Colts. Edited June 17, 2015 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) A) Agreed. I never thought EJ was the only problem with the offense, only that he IS a problem Two agreements back to back? I must be getting soft. B) Exactly! All those guys suck. Why wouldn't you be conservative with that crew at QB with a good defense? D) It's speculation that EJ's inaccuracy is direct evidence of his inaccuracy? Could it be because he's scared? Maybe. But he's inaccurate, period. The root cause is speculation, outside of his sloppy mechanics. The conflation comes with the assumption that all of EJ's problems stem from inaggressiveness/fear. My contention is speculation, but his accuracy is not. E) Our coach trying to win every game in the season by being conservative is a negative? Winning 9 games, through whatever method, is a bad thing? Outside of that, I can see that EJ playing a little in week 17 had some merit. Some posters I respect were against it, hoping for a clean slate for 2015. Regardless of Marrone's reasons in week 17, his reasons for week 5 had a ton of merit. And weeks 5-16. Orton wasn't good, he was conservative. What else was he gonna do when we were mathemtically alive? Pretend Orton was Brady like Chan did with Fitz and line up 5 wide on 4th and inches? So, let's say he was inaccurate in 2014, and knew the plays in 2014. Okay. It's a real gas. Downing seemed to think EJ's accuracy issues - which were really timing issues - were correctable. Maybe that's just happy-talk, I don't know. We've already seen Cassel at his very best and I'm hoping for something better. I'm hoping either EJ or TT - or both - have improved their games to the point that they're significantly better than MC. Edited June 17, 2015 by hondo in seattle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Regarding EJ's accuracy problems, this quote from Todd Downing (EJ's QB coach last year) is telling: "People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate, it's because he has great aim with the football. It's not aim... Most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read." Reading between the lines, it seems like Downing was saying EJ had some problems being on time and throwing to the right spot in the read. Presumably, Downing was working on those issues with EJ last year. Hopefully, they're correctable. I'm skeptical over anything a member of last year's coaching staff might say, except on this point I have read quotes from Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers saying essentially the same thing - that young QB struggle with trusting the read and getting the ball out promptly, and this leads to inaccuracy. In Brady's case it was said in the context of praising Luck, saying that for a young QB Luck had unusual confidence in his reads. In Rodger's case it was said in the context of comments about his own development as a QB. If you know what you're looking for, you can see this in a number of EJ's "inaccurate" throws - he hesitates just a fraction, and by the time the ball gets to the spot, the intended receiver has already been and gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 14 pages of hair splitting, gross exaggeration in every direction & general douchebaggery and rising. God, I love this place. And you a zookeeper Is it wrong to feel this way about the Pats*? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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