Article: E.J. is beating out Cassel and Taylor in OTA's

[The Wiz]

Marrone took plays out of the playbook because EJ couldn't grasp the offense.

 

Anywho, what's EJ gonna say? Marrone tried to develop me but I just stink too much?

 

He may, like many, know it's just easier to blame the guy who is no longer around.

 

 

Yea, you know Fred Jackson is the type of guy to throw someone under the bus for no reason.

 

 

Link to where Fred said anything about Marrone developing players?

Just to clear some stuff up. I wasn't being sarcastic when I made the comment about Fred throwing Marrone under the bus.

 

However FC, you did cherry pick the player development part (which I wasn't referring to) when most people remember Fred saying that Marrone under-minded Hackett in the play calling even though you blamed it solely on EJ not being able to grasp the offense. Though it may be part of the reason the playbook was limited, it's not like they were firing on more than a 9 volt battery when KO took over.

 

In terms of player development though, there were a few reports I remember hearing/reading that Marrone basically spent most of practice working with the OLine and didn't spend time with other units (I believe one was from a player and another was from an assistant coach).

Edited June 16, 2015 by The Wiz

[FireChan]

 

 

 

 

Just to clear some stuff up. I wasn't being sarcastic when I made the comment about Fred throwing Marrone under the bus.

 

However FC, you did cherry pick the player development part (which I wasn't referring to) when most people remember Fred saying that Marrone under-minded Hackett in the play calling even though you blamed it solely on EJ not being able to grasp the offense. Though it may be part of the reason the playbook was limited, it's not like they were firing on more than a 9 volt battery when KO took over.

 

In terms of player development though, there were a few reports I remember hearing/reading that Marrone basically spent most of practice working with the OLine and didn't spend time with other units (I believe one was from a player and another was from an assistant coach).

You weren't referring to player development?

 

What do you think EJ has told Rex/Whaley behind closed doors?

 

EJ's made, along with others, some very telling statements how Marrone didn't work on player development and even took plays out of the playbook.

 

Seeing as the topic has been EJ's development, I assumed we were going to stick to that. But I'm gonna go piece by piece here.

 

when most people remember Fred saying that Marrone under-minded Hackett in the play calling even though you blamed it solely on EJ not being able to grasp the offense.

 

No, I didn't. Undermined in the playcalling and taking plays out of the playbook because of x reason (maybe execution) is not the same. Telling Hackett that we're gonna punt is not the same as taking out a certain play because it doesn't work. The root cause may have similarities, or it might not. That's opinion-based.

 

Though it may be part of the reason the playbook was limited, it's not like they were firing on more than a 9 volt battery when KO took over.

 

I believe we were only referring to 2013. But I have been told by many folks today that Orton stunk. So, did we expect replacing one bad QB with another bad QB would make the offense great?

 

In terms of player development though, there were a few reports I remember hearing/reading that Marrone basically spent most of practice working with the OLine and didn't spend time with other units (I believe one was from a player and another was from an assistant coach).

 

This is very possible. However, it is exactly what we want Rex to do.

Edited June 16, 2015 by FireChan

[C.Biscuit97]

This thread is officially a car wreck. Not surprisingly with some of the main posters in it.

[metzelaars_lives]

This thread is officially a car wreck. Not surprisingly with some of the main posters in it.

Seriously though, how could this thread not be a car wreck?

[GG]

They were on the same roster for 1 year, 2012, which was Winston's redshirt year and Manuel's senior year.

Yeah, but other than that.

[Solomon Grundy]

They were on the same roster for 1 year, 2012, which was Winston's redshirt year and Manuel's senior year.

They were able to redshirt Winston because EJ was GOOD enough?

[LeGOATski]

FWIW TBD's golden boy Sal Capaccio just tweeted this: "65% Matt Cassel. 25% Tyrod Taylor. 10% EJ Manuel." -#Bills starting QB chances as of today in the opinion of @SalSports. What do you think?"

 

Discuss.

Gross, Sal Cappuccino. Just gross.

[Solomon Grundy]

I think Tyrod will be used in "specialty" situations. Didn't Rex use Michael Vick like that in NY?

[LeGOATski]

I think Tyrod will be used in "specialty" situations. Didn't Rex use Michael Vick like that in NY?

Rex already said Tyrod will be used for the read-option, right? Even if he doesn't win the job outright, he'll still see some playing time.

[billsfan89]

It's a good sign that means very little, although it is better than a bad sign that means very little.

[BuffaloHokie13]

They were able to redshirt Winston because EJ was GOOD enough?

Typically you don't sit 3 year starters in their 4th year for a true freshman regardless of the difference in their talent. And EJ being 'good enough' to warrant a redshirt for Winston is a far cry from 'ample evidence that shows how EJ Manuel was good enough to keep Jameis Winston on the bench at FSU.'

 

In that situation EJ is basically the Chris Leak to Jameis' Tim Tebow.

Edited June 17, 2015 by BuffaloHokie13

[Solomon Grundy]

Typically you don't sit 3 year starters in their 4th year for a true freshman regardless of the difference in their talent. And EJ being 'good enough' to warrant a redshirt for Winston is a far cry from 'ample evidence that shows how EJ Manuel was good enough to keep Jameis Winston on the bench at FSU.'

 

In that situation EJ is basically the Chris Leak to Jameis' Tim Tebow.

But Hokie, Leak won a National Championship! Tebow just stepped in his shoes with basically the same talented roster. Also Tebow didn't redshirt.

[BuffaloHokie13]

But Hokie, Leak won a National Championship! Tebow just stepped in his shoes with basically the same talented roster. Also Tebow didn't redshirt.

Tebow took over full time duty and won a heisman and national championship, sound familiar?

[GG]

But Hokie, Leak won a National Championship! Tebow just stepped in his shoes with basically the same talented roster. Also Tebow didn't redshirt.

 

You mean how the 'noles went undefeated ad won the national championship with a freshman at QB, taking over essentially the same team from a seasoned vet who never was unable to do so?

[The Wiz]

You weren't referring to player development?

 

 

Seeing as the topic has been EJ's development, I assumed we were going to stick to that. But I'm gonna go piece by piece here.

 

when most people remember Fred saying that Marrone under-minded Hackett in the play calling even though you blamed it solely on EJ not being able to grasp the offense.

 

No, I didn't. Undermined in the playcalling and taking plays out of the playbook because of x reason (maybe execution) is not the same. Telling Hackett that we're gonna punt is not the same as taking out a certain play because it doesn't work. The root cause may have similarities, or it might not. That's opinion-based.

 

Though it may be part of the reason the playbook was limited, it's not like they were firing on more than a 9 volt battery when KO took over.

 

I believe we were only referring to 2013. But I have been told by many folks today that Orton stunk. So, did we expect replacing one bad QB with another bad QB would make the offense great?

 

In terms of player development though, there were a few reports I remember hearing/reading that Marrone basically spent most of practice working with the OLine and didn't spend time with other units (I believe one was from a player and another was from an assistant coach).

 

This is very possible. However, it is exactly what we want Rex to do.

a) When I was talking about fred, no. I wasn't talking about player development but the playbook being limited. Fred said they limited the playbook. To me, that means the offense, not special teams.

 

b) taking plays out of the playbook was something to expect for EJ when he couldn't perform but Marrone kept the same playbook with Orton. Did everyone not play the same "what's the first play they run?" when he was under center?

 

c) orton wasn't on the team in 2013 so that is invalid.

 

d) Yes, we want a head coach to spend a large chunk of practice focused on one part of the offense and not let, I dunno, the coaches he hired to coach those positions and do their job and address it later on if it's a problem.

Edited June 17, 2015 by The Wiz

[FireChan]

a) When I was talking about fred, no. I wasn't talking about player development but the playbook being limited. Fred said they limited the playbook. To me, that means the offense, not special teams.

 

b) taking plays out of the playbook was something to expect for EJ when he couldn't perform but Marrone kept the same playbook with Orton. Did everyone not play the same "what's the first play they run?" when he was under center?

 

c) orton wasn't on the team in 2013 so that is invalid.

 

d) Yes, we want a head coach to spend a large chunk of practice focused on one part of the offense and not let, I dunno, the coaches he hired to coach those positions and do their job and address it later on if it's a problem.

A) No.

 

Hackett wanted to be more aggressive, according to Jackson.

"He was an aggressive guy and has always been since I've known him," Jackson said. "When some of the things that were called that didn't kind of fit his mold, that is what it is. He couldn't do what he wanted to.

"Knowing Nate, Nate is a guy that likes to go big or go home. Some of the stuff that he wanted to call, didn't get called in a game, and I don't know if that was always his call."

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/16814/fred-jackson-says-nate-hackett-couldnt-do-what-he-wanted-to

 

It wasn't just limiting the playbook for no reason. It was aggressiveness. Something that is directly related to how good your offense is executing their plays. Poor execution = no confidence = no agressiveness.

 

B) I don't understand your point.

 

C) What? The playbook was quoted to be cut down in 2013. I said that Orton was irrelevant.

 

D) What? I've heard "too many cooks in the kitchen" excuse for EJ. Now, Marrone is simultaneously blamed for not coaching EJ enough? Huh? What does the HC "developing" a QB mean to you? Just having him hang out with a QB coach?

Edited June 17, 2015 by FireChan

[Thurman#1]

http://buffalo.suntimes.com/buffalo-bills/7/116/142765/bills-ej-manuel-beating-cassel-taylor-otas

 

I think the OTA's are a very small sample size but no doubt I would love it if E.J. could earn the job. Either way too early to tell IMO.

 

 

This isn't even OTAs.

 

It's a reference to Fairbarn's article about one day in OTAs. Not all of the OTAs, just one day.

 

Much much too small a sample size at this point.

 

You mean how the 'noles went undefeated ad won the national championship with a freshman at QB, taking over essentially the same team from a seasoned vet who never was unable to do so?

 

 

 

It actually wasn't "essentially the same team." There were quite a few personnel changes between those two years. It's not like there were only one or two guys who were different.

 

Not that Jameis isn't better. He is. He's more of a finished product than Manuel and a better athlete. But not being a finished product when you come out of college is tough on your college program but doesn't necessarily mean bad things for your pro team. Guys can develop.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Thurman#1

[hondo in seattle]

So wild.

 

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/12/9/5191390/buffalo-bills-to-scale-back-offense-for-ej-manuel

 

Following an abysmal performance in Tampa Bay, Buffalo Bills head coach Doug Marrone told reporters on Sunday afternoon that he plans on scaling back his offense a bit for beleaguered starting quarterback EJ Manuel.

"We've been giving him more and more, and now it's a point where you have to re-evaluate that," Marrone said Sunday. "We've been going fast with his progression, and now we just have to look at it and get him started again. And it's not starting over, don't get me wrong. We have to look to see what we can do, and probably cut down what we're doing."

 

 

You said EJ 'couldn't grasp the offense.' Marrone's quote doesn't support your assertion. Marrone's only says they're reevaluating how much to give EJ in his rookie year (the quote was from 2013) and perhaps cut back.

 

Evaluating how much a rookie can handle is perfectly normal. In any case, no QB runs the whole offensive playbook every week. Not even close.

 

I stand by what I previously wrote: saying EJ couldn't grasp Marrone's offense is wild speculation and I think it unlikely. EJ may have shortcomings but understanding an offense isn't one of them IMHO.

[Bill from NYC]

It's clear that you think that EJ's issues are due solely to Marrone's hate for him, when there's ample evidence that he's simply not that good, and a coach was deathly afraid of keeping him out on the field because he was a few throws away from killing his entire WR corps.

Bingo!

 

Many posters point to EJ's stats and compare them to those of accomplished qbs early in their careers, and I get this. That said, many of his completions were not very well thrown (behind receivers) and others just didn't lead them. I think that if EJ, with all of his talent, was accurate, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And it remains to be seen if this can change.

I for one hope that he can correct these huge flaws but it wont be easy. And, this team is too chock full of talent to waste a season due to the growing pains of EJ Manuel. I want to make the playoffs. Enough is enough.

 

Jmo.

[The Wiz]

A) No.

 

Hackett wanted to be more aggressive, according to Jackson.

"He was an aggressive guy and has always been since I've known him," Jackson said. "When some of the things that were called that didn't kind of fit his mold, that is what it is. He couldn't do what he wanted to.

"Knowing Nate, Nate is a guy that likes to go big or go home. Some of the stuff that he wanted to call, didn't get called in a game, and I don't know if that was always his call."

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/16814/fred-jackson-says-nate-hackett-couldnt-do-what-he-wanted-to

 

It wasn't just limiting the playbook for no reason. It was aggressiveness. Something that is directly related to how good your offense is executing their plays. Poor execution = no confidence = no agressiveness.

 

B) I don't understand your point.

 

C) What? The playbook was quoted to be cut down in 2013. I said that Orton was irrelevant.

 

D) What? I've heard "too many cooks in the kitchen" excuse for EJ. Now, Marrone is simultaneously blamed for not coaching EJ enough? Huh? What does the HC "developing" a QB mean to you? Just having him hang out with a QB coach?

A) so you are putting the blame for poor execution solely on EJ.

 

B) my point is that the playbook didn't change whether it was EJ, Tuel, Lewis, Orton under center so he must not have had faith in any of them being able to execute a play.

 

C)You're right, it's irrelevant.

 

D) The QB coach in 2013 was Hackett. I don't know how much time he had to invest in coaching the QB's while also coaching the rest of the offense. The too many cooks in the kitchen excuse was possibly Hackett telling him to be more aggressive and Morrone telling him to play it safe. Just because he's telling him to play it safe doesn't mean that he was actually working with the QB (any of them) to develop.

 

Whaley said himself that Marrone didn't coach him correctly but I'm sure you will chalk that up to Whaley trying to get another coach to work with his draft pick. Even though it might be just that, I can't help remember the training camp argument where Marrone yelled at them to fire him.