Could Cordy Glenn really start off season on 2nd string?

[thebandit27]

I think the only reason that there could be fire to this smoke is Glenn, and I say that for a few reasons:

 

1. He had a down year last year, which opens the door to the possibility that he could be outplayed by younger guys.

2. He is the only tackle on the team that has experience playing guard (and extensive experience at that), and thus would be the only viable candidate to kick inside.

3. He will be an unrestricted free agent following the season, and will be so at a time when 2 of the team's top 3 defenders (Gilmore and Dareus) are also UFAs, along with one of the top 2 LBs (Bradham). Having a contingency plan if they are unable to keep him is extremely important, and it's better to start formulating your contingency a year ahead of time than to find yourself in a fix next offseason.

 

Let's see how this plays out.

The article is a joke. Glenn was the best lineman on the team last season, and would have looked better if he had a better player next to him. Along with a better coaching staff.

 

Henderson at least played, and when he did he mostly stunk it up. He graded as one of of the very worst OT's in the league.

 

Watch him deftly block Mack....

 

 

 

I agree...good tackles simply don't get beat by good pass rushers...

 

http://billsmafia.com/2014/12/01/jerry-hughes-performance-joe-thomas-proves-hes-worthy-hefty-contract/

[Franchiseneedsme]

 

IF WE MOVE HIM TO GUARD WE WILL LOSE HIM IN FREE AGENCY

 

What sense does that make?

If the 2nd year guys are better it makes sense for the cap... But only if they are truly upgrades...big if

[YoloinOhio]

I think the only reason that there could be fire to this smoke is Glenn, and I say that for a few reasons:

 

1. He had a down year last year, which opens the door to the possibility that he could be outplayed by younger guys.

2. He is the only tackle on the team that has experience playing guard (and extensive experience at that), and thus would be the only viable candidate to kick inside.

3. He will be an unrestricted free agent following the season, and will be so at a time when 2 of the team's top 3 defenders (Gilmore and Dareus) are also UFAs, along with one of the top 2 LBs (Bradham). Having a contingency plan if they are unable to keep him is extremely important, and it's better to start formulating your contingency a year ahead of time than to find yourself in a fix next offseason.

 

Let's see how this plays out.

 

 

I agree...good tackles simply don't get beat by good pass rushers...

 

http://billsmafia.com/2014/12/01/jerry-hughes-performance-joe-thomas-proves-hes-worthy-hefty-contract/

right. I don't think there is any question that Mack is a better player than Henderson right now. But just like Joe Thomas got abused by Hughes for the entire game last year, Thomas is not a bad OT. Mack is the absolute real deal, and he makes OL look bad.

[thewildrabbit]

this isn't popular but I have a feeling they are planning for when they will lose him in FA. I think they will make him a fair offer but they won't break the bank like they will for Dareus and Gilmore, and he will leave for more money on open market (don't blame him)

This might be true, and for kinda the same reason the team let Levitre walk away. For the fact that Andy was a slightly one dimensional player in that he wasn't all that great a run blocker, and nether is Glenn. Levitre was by far the teams best pass blocker, and has been sorely missed the last few years. Glenn is far and away this teams best pass blocker, and with him being a good LT it makes him about the most prized player on offense.

 

Marrone wasn't about continuity at all, and in fact he stated he thought that it didn't matter at all as long as you started the best five linemen. Well, we all now know how much Bills fans think of Saint Doug's ideas about the line. He fielded the worst line in the NFL for most of the season, and it finished at 30th with Urbik back at OG. Plus the team graded as the very worst run blocking unit in the NFL. So it was an entire horrific line effort, and not just Glenn. We also now have come to realize that Marrone was an idiot, and mostly got lucky obtaining a 9-7 season. The defense, (Schwartz) & Orton were the biggest reasons for that record IMO.

 

 

What have we fans learned the last seven years since Jason Peters was traded away. That good pass blocking LT's aren't that easy to find, and it took the team four years to find another decent player for that position. Then I feel the team was exceedingly lucky to find Glenn in the second round. While Mike Mayock stated he thought Glenn would be a good tackle, he also thought he could be an elite / great OG. The problem with this thinking of moving Glenn to OG is that it leaves a gigantic void that can't be filled by off season penciled in paper heroes.

 

The only thing Seantrel Henderson proved is that he looked like a 1st round steal on paper before the season started, and then looked like a seventh rounder during the regular season. Then when a playoff berth was on the line he folded like a deck chair on the titanic. Henderson may or may not improve as this team has a long history of drafting "maybe" line players in the later rounds. Demetress Bell, Ed Wang, Kyle Calloway, Chris Hairston, Zerbie Sanders, Mark Asper, Cyril Richardson. I don't see how a player who couldn't even get on the field for one of the worst units in the league last year can now be penciled in as a starter.

 

Then moving Henderson to LT would be about the most disastrous move this team could make. The guy couldn't even handle RT, so that qualifies him as a starting LT? Shear idiocy! Personally I think its rather foolish to be penciling in a third round rookie at OG considering the past draft history of this team. Has anyone drafted after the second round besides the fifth round choice of Kyle Williams or the seventh round choice of Stevie Johnson made any sort of significant impact since 2006?

 

 

What we also learned is that paying 100 million to a defensive end might sell a lot of season tickets, but it doesn't win games in itself. Even with three pro bowlers on the D line, and the number four overall defense the team still barely had a winning record.

 

I gotta wonder if the FO will ever come to understand that today's game revolves around finding and protecting an elite QB, and not an elite DE, or DT, or WR, or RB! With all the non QB superstars on the team ...will the team even have the money to pay an elite QB should they find one?

[thebandit27]

 

I gotta wonder if the FO will ever come to understand that today's game revolves around finding and protecting an elite QB, and not an elite DE, or DT, or WR, or RB! With all the non QB superstars on the team ...will the team even have the money to pay an elite QB should they find one?

 

They'll find that out when it becomes the truth...right now it isn't.

 

That's why teams with great QBs and mediocre (NE) or bad (Seattle) OLs win the Superbowl every year.

 

As to players that have contributed post 2nd-round, well:

 

Preston Brown

Seantrel Henderson

Marquise Goodwin

Duke Williams

Nigel Bradham

Da'Norris Searcy

Chris Hairston

Marcus Easley

Arthur Moats

 

All since 2010.

[thewildrabbit]

right. I don't think there is any question that Mack is a better player than Henderson right now. But just like Joe Thomas got abused by Hughes for the entire game last year, Thomas is not a bad OT. Mack is the absolute real deal, and he makes OL look bad.

I posted that video to reflect just how badly Henderson was beaten play after play, and one could easily say he was a big factor in that loss. I also didn't mention that after the first time he was beaten badly the coaches should have noticed and helped him more with the TE, RB chipping on Mack. Part of the bigger problem with the team last season IMO.

 

That Raiders defense finished the season with the 31st ranked in points allowed, and 21st in yards. Mack finished 3rd in defensive rookie of the year voting with 6 votes. CJ Mosley had 18 votes, Aaron Donald who won DRotY had 25. Mack also finished the season 92nd in tackles with 59, and 16 assists, and had only four sacks all season. He also didn't make the pro bowl. The guy is not the second coming of Lawrence Taylor just yet, although he looked like it against Henderson.

 

The entire point was to show how bad this player really was in one game, and the thinking that he now resembles anything close to a quality LT is preposterous. Joe Thomas is a good OT, and from what I saw last season Henderson is not...and perhaps never will be.

Edited June 4, 2015 by FeartheLosing

[Wayne Cubed]

I posted that video to reflect just how badly Henderson was beaten play after play, and one could easily say he was a big factor in that loss. I also didn't mention that after the first time he was beaten badly the coaches should have noticed and helped him more with the TE, RB chipping on Mack. Part of the bigger problem with the team last season IMO.

 

That Raiders defense finished the season with the 31st ranked in points allowed, and 21st in yards. Mack finished 3rd in defensive rookie of the year voting with 6 votes. CJ Mosley had 18 votes, Aaron Donald who won DRotY had 25. Mack also finished the season 92nd in tackles with 59, and 16 assists, and had only four sacks all season. He also didn't make the pro bowl. The guy is not the second coming of Lawrence Taylor just yet, although he looked like it against Henderson.

 

The entire point was to show how bad this player really was in one game, and the thinking that he now resembles anything close to a quality LT is preposterous. Joe Thomas is a good OT, and from what I saw last season Henderson is not...and perhaps never will be.

 

First off, the video you posted wasn't play after play. It was a highlight real of Mack making good plays, the first 2 plays weren't even against Henderson. Was it a bad game for Henderson? Sure.

 

Why are you trying to devalue how good Mack was/is by stating that he came in 3rd in voting? He looked good in a couple of games but like most rookies, including Henderson, had some up and down games.

 

Did you not read what Yolo wrote?Joe Thomas got absolutely abused by Jerry Hughes last season. Joe Thomas played very badly against the Bills, much like Henderson did against the Raiders. The difference? Henderson is a rookie.

 

I've noticed your go to game for evaluating Henderson is against the Raiders, care to evaluate any other games he player in?

[stony]

I posted that video to reflect just how badly Henderson was beaten play after play, and one could easily say he was a big factor in that loss. I also didn't mention that after the first time he was beaten badly the coaches should have noticed and helped him more with the TE, RB chipping on Mack. Part of the bigger problem with the team last season IMO.

 

That Raiders defense finished the season with the 31st ranked in points allowed, and 21st in yards. Mack finished 3rd in defensive rookie of the year voting with 6 votes. CJ Mosley had 18 votes, Aaron Donald who won DRotY had 25. Mack also finished the season 92nd in tackles with 59, and 16 assists, and had only four sacks all season. He also didn't make the pro bowl. The guy is not the second coming of Lawrence Taylor just yet, although he looked like it against Henderson.

 

The entire point was to show how bad this player really was in one game, and the thinking that he now resembles anything close to a quality LT is preposterous. Joe Thomas is a good OT, and from what I saw last season Henderson is not...and perhaps never will be.

 

Good players beat other good players. Hughes dominated Glenn last training camp by all accounts. With that said, we're in for a long season if Seantrel is the starting LT.

[thewildrabbit]

 

First off, the video you posted wasn't play after play. It was a highlight real of Mack making good plays, the first 2 plays weren't even against Henderson. Was it a bad game for Henderson? Sure.

 

Why are you trying to devalue how good Mack was/is by stating that he came in 3rd in voting? He looked good in a couple of games but like most rookies, including Henderson, had some up and down games.

 

Did you not read what Yolo wrote?Joe Thomas got absolutely abused by Jerry Hughes last season. Joe Thomas played very badly against the Bills, much like Henderson did against the Raiders. The difference? Henderson is a rookie.

 

I've noticed your go to game for evaluating Henderson is against the Raiders, care to evaluate any other games he player in?

OK

Just to throw some more light on Henderson from last season here is an excerpt from Estro's post http://forums.twobil...-in-depth-look/

"Cordy Glenn graded out with a +6.5 (1069 snaps). Solid enough. Seantrel Henderson graded out with a -29.9 (1086 snaps), downright putrid. He graded out very bad pass blocking and graded out as one of the worst run blocking T's in the league. Given how much Rex and Roman want to emphasize the run this year, you'd have to think they'll look to replace Henderson in the starting lineup. Any of the above players would be huge, huge, huge upgrades over Henderson. "

There was a real reason as to why Doug Whaley was attempting to sign OT Bryan Bulaga away from the Packers, and in fact offered them more $$ then the Pack did. The Bills were also trying to obtain a decent OG in Jahri Evans. Now because the team failed in those efforts suddenly bad players or unknowns become instant reliable starters.

[Wayne Cubed]

OK

Just to throw some more light on Henderson from last season here is an excerpt from Estro's post http://forums.twobil...-in-depth-look/

"Cordy Glenn graded out with a +6.5 (1069 snaps). Solid enough. Seantrel Henderson graded out with a -29.9 (1086 snaps), downright putrid. He graded out very bad pass blocking and graded out as one of the worst run blocking T's in the league. Given how much Rex and Roman want to emphasize the run this year, you'd have to think they'll look to replace Henderson in the starting lineup. Any of the above players would be huge, huge, huge upgrades over Henderson. "

There was a real reason as to why Doug Whaley was attempting to sign OT Bryan Bulaga away from the Packers, and in fact offered them more $$ then the Pack did. The Bills were also trying to obtain a decent OG in Jahri Evans. Now because the team failed in those efforts suddenly bad players or unknowns become instant reliable starters.

 

Ah yes, the PFF evaluation, knew that was coming. Let's assign a numerical value to a player even though we have no idea what the blocking assignment was.

[NoSaint]

 

Ah yes, the PFF evaluation, knew that was coming. Let's assign a numerical value to a player even though we have no idea what the blocking assignment was.

 

you dont think that the numbers can begin to even sort out good from bad? i know its useless to argue +6 vs +4 vs 0, but you dont think that a 30-40 point swing is indicative of anything on a cliffnote level of evaluation?

[klos63]

 

Ah yes, the PFF evaluation, knew that was coming. Let's assign a numerical value to a player even though we have no idea what the blocking assignment was.

too many excuses for the poor performance of the line last year. Henderson was a gamble in the 7th round, I know he was highly recruited out of high school, but he hasn't done much since then. It's not a stretch to think he's not very good.

[Wayne Cubed]

you dont think that the numbers can begin to even sort out good from bad? i know its useless to argue +6 vs +4 vs 0, but you dont think that a 30-40 point swing is indicative of anything on a cliffnote level of evaluation?

 

That's a tough one especially when it comes to the OL.

 

Even Kromer has said, in an interview, that it would be hard to evaluate how well individuals played along the OL unless he knew specific blocking assignments and what the calls were. Yet we are to believe that the guys over at PFF, who btw aren't expert football scouts they are fans , can somehow decipher what Kromer can not.

 

Here's what PFF looks for in it's analysts:

 

"ProFootballFocus.com is seeking a number of highly enthusiastic and dedicated football fans to join their analysis team. If you’re a passionate follower of football, looking to expand your knowledge of the game and get a foot in the door of the football industry, then you could have what it takes to become a part of PFF.

 

The successful candidate must have:

● Demonstrable knowledge of the NFL product and what PFF does

● A very high level of enthusiasm and passion for football and Pro Football Focus

● Excellent interpersonal and communication skills (both written and verbal)

● Ability to meet deadlines

● Positive attitude, strong work ethic, and excellent attention to detail

● At least 20 hours of free time per week, with a large amount of time available on weekends"

 

Sure, it's a jumping off point of sorts but with a very large grain of salt.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Wayne Cubed

[thewildrabbit]

you dont think that the numbers can begin to even sort out good from bad? i know its useless to argue +6 vs +4 vs 0, but you dont think that a 30-40 point swing is indicative of anything on a cliffnote level of evaluation?

and when PFF graded the Bills at 13th overall in 2012 a lot of Bills fans were throwing that number around an awful lot, and that year most loved to quote PFF. Now some Bills fans don't like PFF because they seriously reflect on just how bad one unit on the team can be.

 

Last season Glenn graded at (+6.5) is that grade wrong? Erik Pears at RG graded (-25.0) is that grade wrong? Pears is now gone from the team, and Henderson at (-29.9) should be a backup unless he somehow dramatically improves. We won't know that until the preseason / regular season starts, and when the players on the other side of the line don't hold anything back.

[John from Riverside]

This might be true, and for kinda the same reason the team let Levitre walk away. For the fact that Andy was a slightly one dimensional player in that he wasn't all that great a run blocker, and nether is Glenn. Levitre was by far the teams best pass blocker, and has been sorely missed the last few years. Glenn is far and away this teams best pass blocker, and with him being a good LT it makes him about the most prized player on offense.

 

Marrone wasn't about continuity at all, and in fact he stated he thought that it didn't matter at all as long as you started the best five linemen. Well, we all now know how much Bills fans think of Saint Doug's ideas about the line. He fielded the worst line in the NFL for most of the season, and it finished at 30th with Urbik back at OG. Plus the team graded as the very worst run blocking unit in the NFL. So it was an entire horrific line effort, and not just Glenn. We also now have come to realize that Marrone was an idiot, and mostly got lucky obtaining a 9-7 season. The defense, (Schwartz) & Orton were the biggest reasons for that record IMO.

 

 

What have we fans learned the last seven years since Jason Peters was traded away. That good pass blocking LT's aren't that easy to find, and it took the team four years to find another decent player for that position. Then I feel the team was exceedingly lucky to find Glenn in the second round. While Mike Mayock stated he thought Glenn would be a good tackle, he also thought he could be an elite / great OG. The problem with this thinking of moving Glenn to OG is that it leaves a gigantic void that can't be filled by off season penciled in paper heroes.

 

The only thing Seantrel Henderson proved is that he looked like a 1st round steal on paper before the season started, and then looked like a seventh rounder during the regular season. Then when a playoff berth was on the line he folded like a deck chair on the titanic. Henderson may or may not improve as this team has a long history of drafting "maybe" line players in the later rounds. Demetress Bell, Ed Wang, Kyle Calloway, Chris Hairston, Zerbie Sanders, Mark Asper, Cyril Richardson. I don't see how a player who couldn't even get on the field for one of the worst units in the league last year can now be penciled in as a starter.

 

Then moving Henderson to LT would be about the most disastrous move this team could make. The guy couldn't even handle RT, so that qualifies him as a starting LT? Shear idiocy! Personally I think its rather foolish to be penciling in a third round rookie at OG considering the past draft history of this team. Has anyone drafted after the second round besides the fifth round choice of Kyle Williams or the seventh round choice of Stevie Johnson made any sort of significant impact since 2006?

 

 

What we also learned is that paying 100 million to a defensive end might sell a lot of season tickets, but it doesn't win games in itself. Even with three pro bowlers on the D line, and the number four overall defense the team still barely had a winning record.

 

I gotta wonder if the FO will ever come to understand that today's game revolves around finding and protecting an elite QB, and not an elite DE, or DT, or WR, or RB! With all the non QB superstars on the team ...will the team even have the money to pay an elite QB should they find one?

Fear

 

The problem with all of this evalutation is it does not take into account that

 

- Different players mature at different rates

- Rookies tend to play like....well....rookies

 

Seantrel had his issues no doubt....and you are correct in that our coaching didnt seem to fathom that a rookie OT might need some help on that side

 

I am NOT saying that Henderson should be starting at OT......especially if Kujo has found his game....only that these offensive linemen should not be graded on their first year.

[thebandit27]

and when PFF graded the Bills at 13th overall in 2012 a lot of Bills fans were throwing that number around an awful lot, and that year most loved to quote PFF. Now some Bills fans don't like PFF because they seriously reflect on just how bad one unit on the team can be.

 

Last season Glenn graded at (+6.5) is that grade wrong? Erik Pears at RG graded (-25.0) is that grade wrong? Pears is now gone from the team, and Henderson at (-29.9) should be a backup unless he somehow dramatically improves. We won't know that until the preseason / regular season starts, and when the players on the other side of the line don't hold anything back.

 

I don't remember a lot of Bills fans throwing that number around.

 

I do, however, remember a number of Bills fans saying that PFF grades are to be taken with a grain of salt.

Fear

 

The problem with all of this evalutation is it does not take into account that

 

- Different players mature at different rates

- Rookies tend to play like....well....rookies

 

Seantrel had his issues no doubt....and you are correct in that our coaching didnt seem to fathom that a rookie OT might need some help on that side

 

I am NOT saying that Henderson should be starting at OT......especially if Kujo has found his game....only that these offensive linemen should not be graded on their first year.

 

 

I think they can be graded on their 1st year; I just want to see Kromer do the grading, and then put it into his own context.

 

There's no arguing that the OL underperformed last year. The discrepancy, as I see it, is how much responsibility they bare for QBs that held the ball too long, RBs that missed open lanes, and a generally disorganized offensive structure.

 

Hopefully we will see this year. I do think the personnel is better, and I'm hopeful that the 2nd year guys can grow from where they were last year (a full offseason in an NFL program has a huge effect on guys).

[klos63]

I think the main point to be taken is that Carucci has no clue what he is talking about. He is guessing, be basically said so himself.

They have not even started training camp, to suggest such drastic line changes at this point is not only wrong, but irresponsible for someone who is supposed to be such a knowledgeable football reporter.

I'm confident that this coaching staff will start the right players in their best positions.

Unless Henderson and Kujo make giant leaps from last year, it could be a tough season for the line.

But let's at least wait til training camp and have the players in pads before we jump to conclusions.

[YoloinOhio]

I think the main point to be taken is that Carucci has no clue what he is talking about. He is guessing, be basically said so himself.

They have not even started training camp, to suggest such drastic line changes at this point is not only wrong, but irresponsible for someone who is supposed to be such a knowledgeable football reporter.

I'm confident that this coaching staff will start the right players in their best positions.

Unless Henderson and Kujo make giant leaps from last year, it could be a tough season for the line.

But let's at least wait til training camp and have the players in pads before we jump to conclusions.

while I think it's really early to jump to conclusions, it is interesting that John Murphy echoed similar sentiments last night without mentioning Carucci. It's possible, based on the two people talking about it, that the Bills want this out there. For one reason or another - that we don't know right now imo.

[NoSaint]

 

That's a tough one especially when it comes to the OL.

 

Even Kromer has said, in an interview, that it would be hard to evaluate how well individuals played along the OL unless he knew specific blocking assignments and what the calls were. Yet we are to believe that the guys over at PFF, who btw aren't expert football scouts they are fans , can somehow decipher what Kromer can not.

 

 

Sure, it's a jumping off point of sorts but with a very large grain of salt.

Kromer is right, but i think you are taking it a little to serious/literal too. it is a challenge on any given play but if a guy is consistently beat, or loses 1-1 you can still identify strengths/weaknesses.

 

Coaches, GMs, and others evaluate lineman all the time without knowing exact blocking assignments. ideally you can identify what is being coached by looking at a volume of plays and how guys react to situations. if to be taken totally firm that you cant evaluate lineman without knowing the play call, scouting your opponent, signing free agents, and drafting guys is throwing darts blindly. if evaluating a single play, sure thing, its VERY difficult, but if evaluating a season in totality.... you get a lot more insight into whats going on and those volume grades for the year should give you atleast a LITTLE insight into good, bad, or ugly -- even if a 3 vs a 7 may be arbitrary based on a handful of plays getting scored wrong (unless you think they scored a guy wrong very consistently, which could happen - but go ahead and argue that on a specific case i say)

[nucci]

while I think it's really early to jump to conclusions, it is interesting that John Murphy echoed similar sentiments last night without mentioning Carucci. It's possible, based on the two people talking about it, that the Bills want this out there. For one reason or another - that we don't know right now imo.

It's possible but besides QB , O-Line is the biggest problem and the easiest thing to talk and speculate about.