thebandit27 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I thought it was just that there is no cap savings if we cut Manuel but also there is no negative cost either. Basically, EJs $3 mil is on the cap whether he is here or not. Logically, if Cassel is at worst the #2 QB, that leaves the number one job down to Taylor or Manuel. Neither of those guys will be the number 3 guy and I would suspect we don't keep 3 QB. We don't have a development guy. EJ and Tyrod are practically the same age. If both of those guys falter, Cassel will start and Taylor will be the #2, as they actually have more invested in him moving forward. Manuel is a sunk cost. They've already paid it. If he fails to impress, he will be gone. That's the case next year; this year he's $2.42M now and $5.25M if he's cut. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/e.j.-manuel/
jumbalaya Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Saying EJ will either be the starter or cut/traded is hardly making a good case of anything, it is intuitively obvious.
dave mcbride Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) I read Carrucci's article in the Saturday Buff News on this topic. He really was (not loose) wrong with the facts about Cassel in Minnesota. He stated the Vikes brought him in to be a backup, I think. Well, Cassel started the first three games....and broke his ankle in the third game. After that, he was a mentor to Teddy Bridgewater. (the Vikes media was very respectful to Cassel for doing it that well) So,; that does not constitute the facts as represented by Vic. Anyhow, I am a doubter about EJ Manuel....as a season ticket holder, I have seen the really bad downfield throws for the games he played. EJ has a strong inaccurate arm, and will only survive in a dink/dunk pasing game....no long threat to speak of. And, the receivers know it with overt signs of frsutration when EJ p;layed early last year. He missed them time and time again downfield at 15 or 20 yards. No need to have the stud receivers on this team with EJ's lack of accuracy. Orton was fair accuracy wise, and if Cassel is comparable, he will/should start imho. As for EJ's fate, I don't think that he makes it in Buffalo....I like the man, just that he isn't an NFL QB. He was brought in to be a backup to Christian Ponder the year before. That's the case next year; this year he's $2.42M now and $5.25M if he's cut. http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/e.j.-manuel/ His cap hit isn't $5.25 million. That's a dead money stat, not a cap hit stat. What counts against the cap this year if he is cut is his prorated bonus for this and next year. His salary wouldn't count because he wouldn't get it if he's off the team before game 1. Right? Or is his salary guaranteed? EJs fully guaranteed. So if we cut him the cap hit is 5.2m this year (creative accounting can push some). If he is kept its 2.4 and 2.8m for the 2 years. Isn't year 5 an option year for 1st rounders? If so, how could it be fully guaranteed? Edited May 17, 2015 by dave mcbride
thebandit27 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 He was brought in to be a backup to Christian Ponder the year before. His cap hit isn't $5.25 million. That's a dead money stat, not a cap hit stat. What counts against the cap this year if he is cut is his prorated bonus for this and next year. His salary wouldn't count because he wouldn't get it if he's off the team before game 1. Right? Or is his salary guaranteed? Isn't year 5 an option year for 1st rounders? If so, how could it be fully guaranteed? Not positive it's accurate, but the link says that his contract is fully guaranteed
dave mcbride Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Not positive it's accurate, but the link says that his contract is fully guaranteed I'm skeptical of the info given the option year thing. I wonder what the truth is ...
thebandit27 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I'm skeptical of the info given the option year thing. I wonder what the truth is ... Yeah...not sure how that works.
NoSaint Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I'm skeptical of the info given the option year thing. I wonder what the truth is ... The truth is he's entering year 3 and next year is year 4 of a 4 year fully guaranteed deal. The 5th year option is not being discussed.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 I never expected this but based on your post and your track record, It is Taylor's job to lose. keep dreaming doofus
Formerly Allan in MD Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 If EJ does not show much in camp and in the preseason, this new regime isn't likely to keep him around. Keeping him around in that circumstance would mean he has to sit. Nothing will change with that being the case so why bother? I'm not sure, as well, we can afford the luxury of carrying three quarterbacks. It would be great if he could come on strong in camp and impress everyone, but I'm not betting on it.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) If he isn't possesed by the spirit of Johnny Unitas and takes the HUGE steps up required for him specifically just to be competent, then I agree with VC that he won't be here next year. So why wait? Get another Cassel/Orton/Fitz by the end of pre-season. This team should be strong enough in all three phases that a serviceable vet can steer it into the playoffs. Chandler#81, it's easy to say "Why wait? Get another Cassel/Orton/Fitz by the end of preseason". But who, exactly, do you see as that competent vet QB we could pick up after showing Manuel the door? Please recall that we made a try for McCown before trading for Cassel. IMHO there aren't exactly a plethora of competent vet QBs sitting by the phone but here's a list. Who do you advise that the Bills pursue and sign, and how much do you think it will cost them? http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/quarterback/ Just curious, BTW, why does EJ need to be possessed by the spirit of one of the all-time all-star great QB to be become competent? 1) you say ta-mah-toe.. I say adequate at best, which is significantly less than decent. 2) I'll have to look into this -as I'm surely not going to take your word for it. But, coach, we did it with Fitz and I'm sure a few others which cost us dead $$ and I don't recall you wailing about it.. 3) if you read my post, I advocated picking up another competent vet after showing Manuel the door. Carry on, perfect one. Merriam-Webster online says adequate and decent are pretty much synonyms. ad·e·quate: enough for some need or requirement: good enough : of a quality that is good or acceptable : of a quality that is acceptable but not better than acceptable de·cent: good enough but not the best : adequate or acceptable Overthecap is typically a good source for salary cap information http://overthecap.com/player/ej-manuel/2197/ The factor to observe is that EJ Manuel's contract is fully guaranteed, thus if we cut him, we owe him not only this year's salary of $1.2M (2.4M cap hit incl amortized signing bonus), but next year's salary and amortized signing bonus as well (an additional $2.8M cap hit in addition to $2.4M from this year). Thus I make it actually $5.2M cap hit if we cut him this year. And of course, the actual cap impact would be larger if we replace him with a "competent vet", given that the going rate for a competent vet appears to be between $3-$5M. So net $8-$10M cap impact if we do as you suggest and cut Manuel/replace him with a vet. By the way, who is that available competent vet you would like us to sign, again? Edited May 17, 2015 by Hopeful
K-9 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Joe Buscaglia took his speculation to the next level Friday on Rochester radio. He said this season's team is Cassel's to lose, adding he doesn't think Taylor can win the starting job unless Cassel is abysmal in camp. He went on to say he believes EJ has an uphill battle in front of him not to become the starter bust just to make the 53-man roster. He specially said he can foresee EJ getting cut. I know cutting EJ costs the Bills more than if they just kept him on the roster. I'd think a trade or finding a way to put EJ on IR would be ideal if they really don't want him to have a roster spot. I have to believe this speculation is way too early even for reporters on the Bills beat. Joe Bus Busc is the least impartial media judge of EJ Manuel. He's been harping about how bad a pick he was from the moment we made the selection. He has no other way to go on the subject of EJ Manuel at this point. He has to be right, period. GO BILLS!!!
Chandler#81 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 @ Hopeful, the spirit of a dead great is my way of saying his performance was so pathetic last year, that nothing more than an other-worldly turnaround is going to save him. I was at the Houston game last year -worst I ever felt watching a Bills game. Then I watched it on tape ( local game here). I hope you'll believe me when I say it was worse seeing it live and watching the reactions of teammates, coaches and Orton -who stood by himself the entire game. Granted, just one game. But he wasn't sharp from San Diego on -goofy scramble play notwithstanding. Mostly, Rex & Roman aren't beholden to him at all and for his new HC to say in a Presser "I wish he'd get the ball out sooner, before the receiver makes the cut" is telling -to me, even after following it up with some praise. I'm not concerned with cost vs cost exchanging Manuels' rookie contract for another vet. Certainly not -if OBD isn't. As for 'who', final cuts always seem to see effective vet players at every position on the street. My point is, given the quality of the players we amassed on Offense, this fan will feel much better with a vet who's seen and dealt with challenging situations in getting us in the right play or not turning it over -vs a kid who's trying to regain confidence and learn some new skills.
reddogblitz Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 But the beauty of Tuel is you can park him on the PS without fear he's getting lifted, and he'll do a halfway decent job filling in for a few games. Like he did in the Clervelamd and KC games? The reason no one will pick him is because everyone in the NFL knows he sucks, except Moron and Hackett Jr.
Luap22 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 EJ is a year older and wiser. He should have the advantage unless he is a complete flop in pre-season. Why would Baltimore release their QB, and then he automatically becomes our starter? Cassell may be adequate, but EJ has to be our man. He needs more game experience, mistakes or not. If we grind the ball, EJ has to be the man, even I can make adequate hand-offs. I didn't like the Spiller situation, and I don't like this situation. EJ has to have more exposure, and needs fan support. Trading him or releasing him would be stupid at this point. No safety nets, no conservative play calling, let him go, scramble to your hearts content. Hopefully, the new coaches let you open up. Go Bills
dayman Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) It will ultimately depend entirely on preseason performance. At this point, the most obvious pecking order appears (to me) to be: 1. Cassel. Too much talent on the roster to take a risk and he's the least risky start. I think the most likely outcome is everyone is average and nobody pulls away in camp/preseason, Cassel is given the start, has moderate success, and we ride him for the entire season unless he's injured or melts down. 2. Tyrod Taylor. Rex likes him, he's mobile, and I don't see any area where he's clearly inferior to EJ. If we instal a run heavy offense with lots of motion to take advantage of Percy and Sammy...Taylor could have the most upside of any QB. 3. EJ. EJ has been bad for us in the past and proven nothing. He's mobile but not fast. Not a viable running threat by design. I fail to see how anything other than his draft spot places him above 3 on this list (at the moment)--and I don't think Bills leadership cares about where EJ was drafted based on last season. 4. Tuel. He will likely be cut and/or on the practice squad. He's a terrible QB. Edited May 17, 2015 by Rex'sOffense
K-9 Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 EJ is a year older and wiser. He should have the advantage unless he is a complete flop in pre-season. Why would Baltimore release their QB, and then he automatically becomes our starter? Cassell may be adequate, but EJ has to be our man. He needs more game experience, mistakes or not. If we grind the ball, EJ has to be the man, even I can make adequate hand-offs. I didn't like the Spiller situation, and I don't like this situation. EJ has to have more exposure, and needs fan support. Trading him or releasing him would be stupid at this point. No safety nets, no conservative play calling, let him go, scramble to your hearts content. Hopefully, the new coaches let you open up. Go Bills Baltimore didn't release him. He was a free agent that left for a better opportunity in Buffalo. He had NO CHANCE at playing in front of Flacco. None. He is promised a legit chance to earn the starting job here. GO BILLS!!!
dayman Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 Baltimore didn't release him. He was a free agent that left for a better opportunity in Buffalo. He had NO CHANCE at playing in front of Flacco. None. He is promised a legit chance to earn the starting job here. GO BILLS!!! Agreed. From Roman's perspective it's ground-hogs day. Alex Smith = Matt Cassell. Tyrod Taylor = Collin Kaepernick. He can settle for consistent average play w/ Cassell (hopefully) or take advantage of young fast legs and use Taylor. As stated in the above post...EJ appears to be the third most likely starter b/c he has no clear advantage that works for him. No track record of competent play. No abnormal physical abilities like Taylor's legs. Nothing other than his status as a recent 1st round pick.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (..)Everyone was clamoring for us to take an offensive lineman but it seems like everyone forgets that we drafted three of them last year. And not to mention, all three were seen as excellent value picks at the time. It takes those guys a year or two to develop as well. Kouandjio and Richardson certainly have shorter leashes 'round these parts than one Edward Joseph Manuel, that's for sure. Metz, Is this really true? I thought there was some controversy about Kouandjio, with some pundits worried about his allegedly arthritic knees and his tendency to be a waist-bender. Some had him higher in the draft, but some had him much lower for those reasons? Henderson was considered a high risk/high reward guy (why he slipped to the 7th) and no one expects much from the 5th round. (Manuel)His cap hit isn't $5.25 million. That's a dead money stat, not a cap hit stat. What counts against the cap this year if he is cut is his prorated bonus for this and next year. His salary wouldn't count because he wouldn't get it if he's off the team before game 1. Right? Or is his salary guaranteed? Isn't year 5 an option year for 1st rounders? If so, how could it be fully guaranteed? Dave, per Overthecap and Sportrac Manuel's $8.8M, 4 yr rookie contract is fully guaranteed. 2015 is his 3rd season, right? So 2016 (his potential 4th season) is part of his rookie contract and also guaranteed. That's why we think he's a $5.25 cap hit if he's cut this year - fully guaranteed salary this year and next, and 2 years pro rated bonus. Agreed. From Roman's perspective it's ground-hogs day. Alex Smith = Matt Cassell. Tyrod Taylor = Collin Kaepernick. Erm. We could wish. Cassel is longer in the tooth and has been up-and-down, up-and-down. He's way past the "lightbulb finally went on" stage Smith was at. Except for being 6'1" to Kaepernick's 6'4" and never having done anything in the league, sure Taylor is just like Kaep I think EJ Manuel is in the mix somewhere, myself
Ted William's frozen head Posted May 17, 2015 Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) He makes a good case ..... Although Carucci believes Ryan and coordinator Greg Roman are "open-minded" about Manuel's chances, he also suspects the 2013 first-round pick won't be on the final roster unless he wins the starting job. If the Bills end up dangling Manuel for a late-round pick in August, keep an eye on the Eagles as a potential trade partner. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000492925/article/is-matt-cassel-destined-for-backup-role-with-the-bills I hope that EJ plays lights out, and wins the job. I just don't think that it is in him to do so....... Edited May 17, 2015 by Ted William's frozen head
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