Buffalo Barbarian Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 http://nysportsbiz.com/2015/03/03/5-reasons-bills-better-mccoy-alonso-trade/ In the last two seasons, Shady has totaled 2,926 rushing yards while averaging 4.6 yards per carry with 14 touchdowns. He’s also racked up 694 receiving yards and two touchdowns. That’s a total of 3,620 all-purpose yards or 1,800 a season, which this struggling Bills offense could certainly use. Wrong. We lost a good LB and got a good RB Phily got a good RB and a good LB (the RB we should have signed and is a better fit for our power running game.)
Doc Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Wrong. We lost a good LB and got a good RB Phily got a good RB and a good LB (the RB we should have signed and is a better fit for our power running game.) Murray wouldn't have come here. And Kiko at this stage is more of a question mark after tearing his ACL for a 2nd time.
PromoTheRobot Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 You certainly should factor the Murray signing into the Iggle side of the deal, which is all I did. I don't know that Murray would have come to Buffalo for $5M more of his deal guaranteed and I don't know that he wouldn't have. No point in claiming that we could have had him, which is why I didn't. The Bills gave up a third year LB who was DROY, on his rookie deal and who plays a position that has normal longevity in the NFL, but is coming off an ACL that was torn a year ago. In return the Bills got a RB who has been playing at an elite level, but they had to pay him at market value and have to count on him transitioning to the Bills scheme. He will be 27 before the season starts and plays a position where 30 usually marks the end of high productivity. We won't know who was the winner in this trade (and it could be one team, both teams or neither team) and who who was the loser for some time, but I'd like my odds better if I was an Iggles fan. I hate losing Alonso, I have concerns about Shady fitting into the Bills scheme and I have concerns about paying a RB like McCoy is getting paid (especially before he proves his worth in the system). Kiko was not DROY. He was runner up.
beerme1 Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I will see it when I believe it. Shady was paid a lot to like it here. I hope it pans out. So what. So was Mario. How's that working?
John from Riverside Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Wrong. We lost a good LB and got a good RB Phily got a good RB and a good LB (the RB we should have signed and is a better fit for our power running game.) Please provide the proof that he would have EVEN SIGNED HERE..... I swear to christ sometimes BB
Deranged Rhino Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Wrong. We lost a good LB and got a good RB Phily got a good RB and a good LB (the RB we should have signed and is a better fit for our power running game.) The people who think Shady isn't a north south, between the tackles runner, don't know enough about him. I'm not sure how DM is a better fit in a power scheme when he has more miles and a longer injury history. McCoy can, and will, run between the tackles. He excels at making people miss in the hole.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Murray wouldn't have come here. And Kiko at this stage is more of a question mark after tearing his ACL for a 2nd time. Philly isn't concerned about his knee, all this talk is Bills fans trying to justifying the trade in their minds. Why wouldn't Murray come here? Also this was a good yr for RBs which was another reason not to trade a top player for an RB which are easy to find anyway. The people who think Shady isn't a north south, between the tackles runner, don't know enough about him. I'm not sure how DM is a better fit in a power scheme when he has more miles and a longer injury history. McCoy can, and will, run between the tackles. He excels at making people miss in the hole. We will see if he can run between the tackles.
John from Riverside Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Philly isn't concerned about his knee, all this talk is Bills fans trying to justifying the trade in their minds. We dont HAVE to justify the trade in our minds......the trade is totally justifiable its just not they you wanted....why wont you admit that. Your looking foolish. Why wouldn't Murray come here? There are a multitude of reasons why players would not come to a team........a trade is one way to make SURE you get the player you want on the team. Also this was a good yr for RBs which was another reason not to trade a top player for an RB which are easy to find anyway. Of which they were involved in because they took Karlos Williams. We had SIX picks and NEEDS on this team. We will see if he can run between the tackles. Why would he NOT be able to run between the tackles....you do realize that Shady has ran out of a power I formation earlier in his career right?
Dibs Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 .... This was a good trade for both. Philly picked up their downhill runner, we picked up basically the second best RB in the NFL after Peterson... I normally hate the phrase but it was a win win for both sides. Wrong. We lost a good LB and got a good RB Phily got a good RB and a good LB (the RB we should have signed and is a better fit for our power running game.) The Eagles got a good RB in the trade in the same way that we got a good TE in Clay, a good FB in Felton and a good WR in Harvin. It didn't happen! It wasn't part of the trade. People forget that when the trade happened everybody was stunned. Couldn't believe Kelly made the trade. The only arguments brought forward were that the Eagles wanted to free up cap space(McCoy was going to be a $12M cap hit for them) and that maybe McCoy didn't "buy into" Kelly's system. They then went after and got Gore, who promptly pulled out of the deal.....so they signed Mathews(3 yrs, $11M... $5M guaranteed)....and only then(somewhat changing their minds on high cap hits for RB) signed Murray(5 yrs, $40M... $21M guaranteed). Their final cap expenditure went from $12M under keeping Shady to $11.2M($3.4M dead hit for Shady, $5M for Murray, $2M for Mathews, $0.8M for Kiko) after trading and replacing Shady. The Eagles traded one of the best players in the league for a young upcoming player coming off of injury, and all because the Coach wanted to put his stamp on the team. Nobody thought it was a good move for the Eagles at the time. That doesn't change just because the Eagles changed their minds on the RB cap situation and were lucky to get an angry Murray looking for payback on his old team.
Deranged Rhino Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 The Eagles got a good RB in the trade in the same way that we got a good TE in Clay, a good FB in Felton and a good WR in Harvin. It didn't happen! It wasn't part of the trade. People forget that when the trade happened everybody was stunned. Couldn't believe Kelly made the trade. The only arguments brought forward were that the Eagles wanted to free up cap space(McCoy was going to be a $12M cap hit for them) and that maybe McCoy didn't "buy into" Kelly's system. They then went after and got Gore, who promptly pulled out of the deal.....so they signed Mathews(3 yrs, $11M... $5M guaranteed)....and only then(somewhat changing their minds on high cap hits for RB) signed Murray(5 yrs, $40M... $21M guaranteed). Their final cap expenditure went from $12M under keeping Shady to $11.2M($3.4M dead hit for Shady, $5M for Murray, $2M for Mathews, $0.8M for Kiko) after trading and replacing Shady. The Eagles traded one of the best players in the league for a young upcoming player coming off of injury, and all because the Coach wanted to put his stamp on the team. Nobody thought it was a good move for the Eagles at the time. That doesn't change just because the Eagles changed their minds on the RB cap situation and were lucky to get an angry Murray looking for payback on his old team.
BarleyNY Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Kiko was not DROY. He was runner up. Sorry. That is correct. Runner up for DROY. He was also PFWA (Pro Football Writer's Assoc.) DROY, which is what I was remembering.
Dorkington Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) Wrong. We lost a good LB and got a good RB Phily lost a good RB and got a good LB FTFY Counting signings separate from the trade as part of the trade is kinda silly. Otherwise we should say that we picked up Harvin, Felton, and Clay in the trade as well. Why wouldn't Murray come here? Why would he come here? He passed on multiple offers to sign with the Eagles. Do you think he would have come here? Do you think Whaley would have signed him since we were still showing interest in CJ at the time? IMO, it's safer to give up a guy we arguably didn't miss last year*, to guarantee we land a stud RB, than it is to play the guessing game of free agency. Let's say we float an offer to Murray and he passes it up, and CJ still goes to NO. Where do we stand at that point? * - Not saying Kiko sucks, just that we survived and succeeded without him last year. He's a good player, just we ended up being ok without said good player. Edited May 26, 2015 by Dorkington
Dorkington Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I'll expand on this idea that the Eagles signing Murray counts as part of this trade. That logic says all offseason signings count towards this trade. Here's the breakdown on acquisitions of note + Alonso/McCoy trade: Eagles: LB Kiko Alonso CB Byron Maxwell WR Miles Austin LB Brad Jones QB Tim Tebow RB Ryan Mathews RB DeMarco Murray Bills: RB Lesean McCoy OG Richie Incognito WR Percy Harvin FB Jerome Felton TE Charles Clay QB Tyrod Taylor DL Alex Carrington FB John Connor I think we did ok in this "trade", personally
Doc Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Philly isn't concerned about his knee, all this talk is Bills fans trying to justifying the trade in their minds. Why wouldn't Murray come here? Also this was a good yr for RBs which was another reason not to trade a top player for an RB which are easy to find anyway. We will see if he can run between the tackles. Philly also isn't concerned about Bradford's fragility. And there's no justifying at all. The Bills' defense improved without Kiko and now he's coming off a 2nd ACL injury to the same knee. He'll also likely be making a position change. Needless to say, there is far more risk with him. I doubt Murray would have come here, unless the Bills sorely overpaid him. Philly is a much bigger market and in the same division as the Cowboys. And I'd rather have a proven top-3 RB than a rookie mid-2nd rounder. Reality versus potential. And McCoy can run between the tackles. Like any RB, even Murray, he'll need a hole to run through, but he can bounce it to the outside no problem.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 The Bills gave up a LB who is still on his rookie deal and was the 2013 Defensive Rookie of the Year, but is coming off an ACL injury. They gained a RB who has been playing at an elite level (albeit in a different offense) and gave him a huge deal (like an elite RB would be expected to get). To be a winner in this trade McCoy is going to have to translate to the Bills system and be as good as he has been the last couple of seasons. It is difficult to see the Eagles as anything but winners in this trade. They replaced McCoy with Demarco Murray in free agency. Both RBs have been elite backs, both will be 27 going into the season, both got 5 year/$40M contracts and Murray's has $5M less guaranteed. They also got Kiko Alonso who is very promising and still very cheap. And what if a Murray-type back was not available? And what if Alonso is not the same player he was before the injury? Let's see what those traded both do this season and how it impacts on their respective teams before we talk about clear cut winners. Plus, who knows, at this point, how well Murray will fit into the Philly scheme.
John from Riverside Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Sorry. That is correct. Runner up for DROY. He was also PFWA (Pro Football Writer's Assoc.) DROY, which is what I was remembering. Its ok man....still a great honor from PFWA. And Kiko was awesome his rookie season.....I thought he wore down a bit (like rookies tend to do) as the season went on. Im gonna be honest......I really do wish the best for Kiko but those acl injuries are concerning to me.....perhaps its because I have a linebacker in my house who has gone through this so I see the play by play but he has injuried an acl....TWICE.
jumbalaya Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 We had Freddy but spent a first round pick on Lynch. We had Freddy and Lynch but spent a first round pick on Spiller. So we trade a second round pick (who should have been DROY) for a talented back. However McCoy has a lot of miles, an awful lot of miles but we all ignore this in the discussion because it is uncomfortable or something? We had a great LT in Peters then overpaid for two FA's OL busts and never took care of Peters. So we let Peters and two first round RBs go and get next to nothing in return. Our OL never recovered. Again this year the OL is a big question mark. The team is selling the Kool Aid that they are all in on this year's third round pick and hope that last year's seventh round pick Henderson or second round pick Kuondijo can come through. The McCoy trade will be a good move only if the OL is good, If not we are in for another long season. Final evaluation of the trade will depend on how long McCoy lasts. I expect him to be in serious decline in his third year here.
Peter Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) Really? So inexpensive potential is a better measure of a deal than top 3 position production? How about comparing results? Are we are a better team for the move? Five years of CJ and we still talk potential. Shady is elite. Kiko is still in the potential category. I can't believe your measure of success is the cap hit. I'm confused. Trades aren't evaluated on play, what a player brings to a team, wins? It is very simple concept to grasp: If CJ approximates the production of Shady and Kiko plays like Kiko - why wouldn't we have been better off not trading Kiko and signing CJ for a similar contract that NO signed him for -- especially given that (as I recall) CJ and Kiko's combined cap hit is less than Shady's and we are still looking for LB depth at a minimum. Edited May 26, 2015 by Peter
John from Riverside Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 We had Freddy but spent a first round pick on Lynch. We had Freddy and Lynch but spent a first round pick on Spiller. So we trade a second round pick (who should have been DROY) for a talented back. However McCoy has a lot of miles, an awful lot of miles but we all ignore this in the discussion because it is uncomfortable or something? We had a great LT in Peters then overpaid for two FA's OL busts and never took care of Peters. So we let Peters and two first round RBs go and get next to nothing in return. Our OL never recovered. Again this year the OL is a big question mark. The team is selling the Kool Aid that they are all in on this year's third round pick and hope that last year's seventh round pick Henderson or second round pick Kuondijo can come through. The McCoy trade will be a good move only if the OL is good, If not we are in for another long season. Final evaluation of the trade will depend on how long McCoy lasts. I expect him to be in serious decline in his third year here. We ignore the miles because it does not appear to be an issue. We had Freddy but spent a first round pick on Lynch. We had Freddy and Lynch but spent a first round pick on Spiller. So we trade a second round pick (who should have been DROY) for a talented back. However McCoy has a lot of miles, an awful lot of miles but we all ignore this in the discussion because it is uncomfortable or something? We had a great LT in Peters then overpaid for two FA's OL busts and never took care of Peters. So we let Peters and two first round RBs go and get next to nothing in return. Our OL never recovered. Again this year the OL is a big question mark. The team is selling the Kool Aid that they are all in on this year's third round pick and hope that last year's seventh round pick Henderson or second round pick Kuondijo can come through. The McCoy trade will be a good move only if the OL is good, If not we are in for another long season. Final evaluation of the trade will depend on how long McCoy lasts. I expect him to be in serious decline in his third year here. I think McCoy's decline will depend on how he is used......and if you can get 3 years out of him platoon him with Karlos Williams by next year then Karlos takes more the load we will be fine. We are in win now mode.
YoloinOhio Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 It is very simple concept to grasp: If CJ approximates the production of Shady and Kiko plays like Kiko - why wouldn't we have been better off not trading Kiko and signing CJ for a similar contract that NO signed him for -- especially given that (as I recall) CJ and Kiko's combined cap hit is less than Shady's and we are still looking for LB depth at a minimum. jmo but I don't think it would be accurate to use CJs production in NO's offense and assume it would have been the same in Buffalo's.
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