Beerball Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 It does matter though. How many of the 80 or so former players now living in Buffalo were doing cartwheels when they were drafted/traded/signed to play here? it's funny how Kiko was worshipped when he was a Bill, then suddenly, without even having played another game, he is overrated. Funny, I don't see anything like that in the post you quoted. You would agree that Kiko played well in his rookie season? You would agree that his play did tail off? You would agree that the defense played well last season? You would agree that more offensive play makers were needed? You would agree that Alonso is coming off an ACL tear?
prissythecat Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 The Bills gave up a LB who is still on his rookie deal and was the 2013 Defensive Rookie of the Year... The Bills gave up Sheldon Richardson ?
DanInUticaTampa Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 Can't wait to see him run behind Felton. Although I am still worried about our oline, with Roman being a more experienced nfl offensive mind for the run game, felton being a stud in assisting in the run game, and Clay also being good in assisting in the run game, shady is going to look great I think. People saying last year that this team was so good that we didn't need a great QB to win. But our team was poorly coached as far as the offense goes and our oline was terrible, which lead to a terrible running game. Our running game was almost as bad as our QB play. Can't put it all on the QB why we missed the playoffs last year. QB was only part of the problem, not the whole problem
FireChan Posted May 25, 2015 Posted May 25, 2015 How many of the 80 or so former players now living in Buffalo were doing cartwheels when they were drafted/traded/signed to play here? Funny, I don't see anything like that in the post you quoted. You would agree that Kiko played well in his rookie season? You would agree that his play did tail off? You would agree that the defense played well last season? You would agree that more offensive play makers were needed? You would agree that Alonso is coming off an ACL tear? Not many.
John from Riverside Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I just don't get the argument that Murray is going to be fresher than Shady. Shady is a year younger and the nature of how he runs he takes less of a pounding than Demarco does. Murray got pounded hard because of the nature of his running style. I'll take Shady any day. The arguement is there because that is the move Buffalo DIDNT make......therefore needs to be bitched about by some I guess
machine gun kelly Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Why do we have to discuss who won the trade? Isn't it more about "did the bills become a better team?" That answer is yes. Regardless of how the Eagles made out, our team is in a better place because of this move Good post. I wish Kiko the best. He had a good rookie season and no he did not win defensive rookie of the year, Richardson did from the Jets. He deserved it too as Kiko was getting manhandled as an ILB from Guards against the run. Kiko was meant for the Wil in a 4-3 and will cover TE's well. He's not an ILB in a 3-4 which is what we are running. We need guys like Brown and Bradham in those spots. This was a good trade for both. Philly picked up their downhill runner, we picked up basically the second best RB in the NFL after Peterson, and didn't lose anything on defense. I normally hate the phrase but it was a win win for both sides.
Dorkington Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I wonder what the reaction would be here, if it came out that we were offered McCoy for Kiko and declined it.
YoloinOhio Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) I wonder what the reaction would be here, if it came out that we were offered McCoy for Kiko and declined it.-Kim is cheap! They just wanted to hang onto that rookie contract. So much for "win now"- they were offered an all-pro offensive player and turned it down to keep a guy on defense where we were actually better when he wasn't there? Whaley is a moron. So much for improving the offense. - whaley only refused to give up Kiko because of his ego. He drafted him, so he needs to look good by not trading him away so soon - all the Bills care about is PR and selling tickets. Everyone loves the "legend" stuff and they know it, so they don't have the balls to make a move like that. Successful organizations don't care about fan favorites. -4 more years of CJ for -2. Doomed. Edited May 26, 2015 by YoloinOhio
3rdand12 Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 we are all still projecting. are kikos knees shot? Is Ty Powell as good as Rex and April say? Is Lesean worth the contract? stay tuned. ps and yes the financials do matter. Whaley knows this. Winning cures all doubting Thomases. wishing both players success. -Kim is cheap! They just wanted to hang onto that rookie contract. So much for "win now"- they were offered an all-pro offensive player and turned it down to keep a guy on defense where we were actually better when he wasn't there? Whaley is a moron. So much for improving the offense.- whaley only refused to give up Kiko because of his ego. He drafted him, so he needs to look good by not trading him away so soon- all the Bills care about is PR and selling tickets. Everyone loves the "legend" stuff and they know it, so they don't have the balls to make a move like that. Successful organizations don't care about fan favorites.-4 more years of CJ for -2. Doomed. pretty close i bet !
BarleyNY Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 You can't factor the Murray signing into this deal when you're comparing the two for the same reasons you can't make the argument that the Bills would have been better off keeping Kiko and signing Murray themselves. The two are not related and were not guaranteed outcomes. When analyzing the trade, we can only look at the pieces involved. Kiko for McCoy -- hard to see it as anything other than a win for Buffalo. It's funny how McCoy was considered a top 3 RB in the league when he was an Eagle, then suddenly, McCoy is thought of as over the hill, over rated, and injury prone -- without playing a snap. Funny how that works, isn't it? You certainly should factor the Murray signing into the Iggle side of the deal, which is all I did. I don't know that Murray would have come to Buffalo for $5M more of his deal guaranteed and I don't know that he wouldn't have. No point in claiming that we could have had him, which is why I didn't. The Bills gave up a third year LB who was DROY, on his rookie deal and who plays a position that has normal longevity in the NFL, but is coming off an ACL that was torn a year ago. In return the Bills got a RB who has been playing at an elite level, but they had to pay him at market value and have to count on him transitioning to the Bills scheme. He will be 27 before the season starts and plays a position where 30 usually marks the end of high productivity. We won't know who was the winner in this trade (and it could be one team, both teams or neither team) and who who was the loser for some time, but I'd like my odds better if I was an Iggles fan. I hate losing Alonso, I have concerns about Shady fitting into the Bills scheme and I have concerns about paying a RB like McCoy is getting paid (especially before he proves his worth in the system).
Peter Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) At the end of the day, I will evaluate this trade by comparing: Shady and his cap hit v. Kiko and CJ and their lower collective cap hit. Edited May 26, 2015 by Peter
John from Riverside Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 You certainly should factor the Murray signing into the Iggle side of the deal, which is all I did. I don't know that Murray would have come to Buffalo for $5M more of his deal guaranteed and I don't know that he wouldn't have. No point in claiming that we could have had him, which is why I didn't. The Bills gave up a third year LB who was DROY, on his rookie deal and who plays a position that has normal longevity in the NFL, but is coming off an ACL that was torn a year ago. In return the Bills got a RB who has been playing at an elite level, but they had to pay him at market value and have to count on him transitioning to the Bills scheme. He will be 27 before the season starts and plays a position where 30 usually marks the end of high productivity. We won't know who was the winner in this trade (and it could be one team, both teams or neither team) and who who was the loser for some time, but I'd like my odds better if I was an Iggles fan. I hate losing Alonso, I have concerns about Shady fitting into the Bills scheme and I have concerns about paying a RB like McCoy is getting paid (especially before he proves his worth in the system). Why would you like your odds better as an eagles fan. There is nothing to support that.
Green Lightning Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) At the end of the day, I will evaluate this trade by comparing: Shady and his cap hit v. Kiko and CJ and their lower collective cap hit. Really? So inexpensive potential is a better measure of a deal than top 3 position production? How about comparing results? Are we are a better team for the move? Five years of CJ and we still talk potential. Shady is elite. Kiko is still in the potential category. I can't believe your measure of success is the cap hit. Edited May 26, 2015 by Green Lightning
Webster Guy Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Obviously it will take years to evaluate this trade, as is the case with all draft picks and trades. Everything else is just hot air and speculation but it's fascinating how many people already seem to know the outcome of the shady kiko deal. The only reasonable certainty I see is that in three years Shady will be on his way out and kiko likely in his prime. I liked the idea of a trade but I felt like we should have shopped kiko around the league and then made a decision based on the highest bidders. What if we could have picked up draft picks or even a pro bowl guard like philly has reportedly been shopping? We sort of responded quickly and did the deal right away. Glad to have Shady, but he's not AP or Bo Jackson, and if he has the same holes we gave our runners last year its gonna be tough for him to win us games.
Beerball Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 At the end of the day, I will evaluate this trade by comparing: Shady and his cap hit v. Kiko and CJ and their lower collective cap hit. I'm confused. Trades aren't evaluated on play, what a player brings to a team, wins?
Dorkington Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 I'm a fan of the trade, and I think it's fair to take money into consideration. Two cheap players that are 90% as productive as two good players, plus leaves room for other productive players, is a big advantage. That being said, I think McCoy is the safer bet vs CJ. And Kiko, while good, isn't as big of an impact. Plus we seem to be ok on the cap front.
Saxum Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Murray had a great year, but let's not forget that he has not been able to stay healthy. He had one great year behind an awesome offensive line. Eagles' offensive line is pretty good too - it is same factor for Murray as for McCoy; even maybe more of a factor for McCoy for he is closer to Spiller than Murray. Murray is more likely to break tackles than McCoy and I'd rather they had concentrated efforts/resouces on drafting a RB and using dollars from McCoy on line. I will give him my full support now he is a Bill however and hope we not repeating phrases used for Spiller for McCoy. Really? So inexpensive potential is a better measure of a deal than top 3 position production? How about comparing results? Are we are a better team for the move? Five years of CJ and we still talk potential. Shady is elite. Kiko is still in the potential category. I can't believe your measure of success is the cap hit. Funny how you left out expensive and potential out of "top 3 position production". It is "expensive and potential top 3 position production" - There is no guarantee with our improved offense line and poor than Eagles' QB that it will be top 3. Running is not a one man game; Marino used to get his RBs killed all the time.
Agent 91 Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 The Bills gave up a LB who is still on his rookie deal and was the 2013 Defensive Rookie of the Year, but is coming off an ACL injury. They gained a RB who has been playing at an elite level (albeit in a different offense) and gave him a huge deal (like an elite RB would be expected to get). To be a winner in this trade McCoy is going to have to translate to the Bills system and be as good as he has been the last couple of seasons. It is difficult to see the Eagles as anything but winners in this trade. They replaced McCoy with Demarco Murray in free agency. Both RBs have been elite backs, both will be 27 going into the season, both got 5 year/$40M contracts and Murray's has $5M less guaranteed. They also got Kiko Alonso who is very promising and still very cheap. He was almost the defensive rookie of the year. He was number 2 i believe
Green Lightning Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Shady produced, CJ did not. Sorry, that's just the fact.
Doc Posted May 26, 2015 Posted May 26, 2015 Eagles' offensive line is pretty good too - it is same factor for Murray as for McCoy; even maybe more of a factor for McCoy for he is closer to Spiller than Murray. Murray is more likely to break tackles than McCoy and I'd rather they had concentrated efforts/resouces on drafting a RB and using dollars from McCoy on line. I will give him my full support now he is a Bill however and hope we not repeating phrases used for Spiller for McCoy. Funny how you left out expensive and potential out of "top 3 position production". It is "expensive and potential top 3 position production" - There is no guarantee with our improved offense line and poor than Eagles' QB that it will be top 3. Running is not a one man game; Marino used to get his RBs killed all the time. Murray had trouble staying healthy behind Dallas' OL. Behind the Eagles' OL, which several NFL analysts have said was made to look better by McCoy, that's not a good omen. But as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And why should expense matter? Unless McCoy's acquisition prevented the Bills from getting who they wanted in FA, cost shouldn't be a factor. And the Bills replaced Kiko's low cost with another low cost player in Brown.
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