Chris Williams also not attending workouts at OBD

[Bill from NYC]

 

You know, this always interests me. I say "he was servicable as a G for the Bears" and "he played decently at G for the Rams who wanted him back".

You change the word to "good" and argue that it's simply not true.

 

What's simply not true is that I used the word "good". I didn't. I use words precisely. So you are arguing against a position I didn't take. Similar with "bust". To me "bust" means a guy who just can't play at the NFL level, period. Aaron Maybin would be an example. What does the word "bust" mean to you? Contextually, something different? Guy must not only play in the NFL, but excel or something? Likewise, are "good" and "servicable" or "decent" synonyms to you? They aren't, to me.

 

The Bears cut him mid-season after deciding to move him back to LT, where he had originally not worked out. He signed with the Rams to play G 6 days later after visiting 4 teams. This was in mid-October, Week 7 of a 17 game season.

 

I would welcome that link which grades Williams as the worst G in 2010, 2011, 2012 (with Rams), and 2013. In general, line play is a very interdependent position and IMHO grades on individual linemen need to be viewed with some skepticism. The Rams had an overall mid-tier line with Williams in it. Did he shop himself before re-upping with the Rams in 2013, yes, yes he did. He would have liked a gig as an LT, paid as an LT, you see. No one being interested in him as an LT, oh well. I could be wrong, but I don't think even the Rams offered Williams 2.75M as a LG in 2013 because they thought he was the worst player in the league at that position and typically "players who come crawling back with their tail between their legs" aren't offered that kind of money. Fisher was quoted as saying he was "solid" and they wanted him back for 2014

 

Anyway, I suppose this is too much verbiage on a small point, I just don't like it when someone twists my words. I say Williams was not a bust - he can play guard servicably in the NFL, when cut he attracted significant interest from 4 teams, and the Rams wanted him back, the Bills outbid them.

 

Wiki says Williams was signed to a $5.5M guaranteed money contract with the Bills. Overthecap says $3.5M guaranteed, which is essentially his signing bonus, and that the Bills could save $2.5M by cutting him "post June 1". Based on this, I don't believe we would owe him any salary this upcoming season.

 

This is Williams' 2nd back injury - his 1st was as a rookie - and for a guy who has missed significant time in 3 of 7 seasons due to injuries, not looking good.

 

It is a puzzle to me why we signed him for the $$ we did, except that he fit the "big hulking behemoth guard" model that Marrone appears to have favored at 6'6", 326 lbs and not many guys do who have actually shown they can play even serviceably at guard. It's also a puzzle to me why, if we weren't expecting him back, we didn't do more to improve at the G position, but that's been a bugaboo of mine since FA.

 

I think if the Bills thought he was a total bust, he would be cut already and designated "post June 1"; If I'm not mistaken, we are allowed 2 such and have not yet used either.

 

It is true that Williams did not live up to his 1st round billing as a LT coming out of college, but that's not the appropriate metric for the Bills to use. Our question is whether he's healthy, and if healthy, if he represents an upgrade, for us, at guard.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Your post is sound.

 

As for the bolded, my definition of a "bust" is far different than yours. It's a bit of a sore spot with me (not that you should agree mind you). Draft selections such as Donte Whitner and Leodis McKelvin were simply not good picks, especially when one takes into consideration who was left at the time they were selected, coupled with team needs.

 

Whitner was a #8 overall selection in the 2006 draft which was deep and loaded with talent. In 2008 our offensive line sucked. We drafted McKelvin who took years to play well. Clady was selected with the next pick and Branden Albert went 3 picks later. Moves like these destroy franchises. I consider these selections to be "busts." People who want to justify dumb moves by the Bills will point out how these players don't "suck," and they are right. But, they absolutely did not play to the level at which they were drafted. Now, is this the fault of the player? Not at all.

 

Imo, it's fine to not want to label players such as the above as "busts." But in terms of where they were drafted, they sure would seem to be. Williams? From what I have seen of him, he does suck. Maybe it's due to injury. Who really knows? But he certainly was a "bust" as a free agent signing, and perhaps even as a draft selection.

 

Jmo.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Bill from NYC

[NoSaint]

 

I think we're back to words meaning different things to us ("bust" "tail between the legs" etc), which is fine.

 

I didn't realize Spotrac gave previous contracts, so thanks for the gouge there. I dunno about the discrepency - maybe the diff was an incentivized contract for milestones that he met? He did start every game for them in 2013. Neither Spotrac nor Overthecap seem to report on contract incentives. I expect they're harder to get the gouge on. I personally think it's weak to look at 2015 salaries and use them to rank a 2013 salary, but whatevs - IMO if a guy sucks and is a bust, he would be outta the league not getting paid 20th in the league using 2015 salaries to rank a 2013 contract, we've already settled some words mean different things to you.

 

I'm kinda done here. My interest in CW isn't strong enough to keep going. It's all good.

i hear you.

 

just an FYI -- The salary pull i did was average salary on current contracts. many of the 20 were valid average salaries for contracts signed 2013 and prior, but a few signed last off season or this may have jumped ahead (some likely fell out too, while some likely were ahead and simply stayed ahead at renewal). is it 100% - absolutely not. heck, it has the fault of putting him in 2013 behind his new deal. is it a decent bar napkin math argument? i think its pretty close still. its not like he wouldve shot up to the top half of the league. he was a starting vet given bottom tier starting vet money. and if the 1.3m was the accurate number it was more like back up vet money but coming with the chance to start.

Edited May 27, 2015 by NoSaint

[RyanC883]

 

I doubt that teams can tie a workout bonus to voluntary organized activities.

 

depends on how it's structured. It could include attendance at OTA's.

[ricojes]

We have to keep him....he's a Williams...

http://www.26shirts.com/buffalo-williams.html

[Dorkington]

http://www.26shirts.com/buffalo-williams.html

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Your post is sound.

 

As for the bolded, my definition of a "bust" is far different than yours. It's a bit of a sore spot with me (not that you should agree mind you). Draft selections such as Donte Whitner and Leodis McKelvin were simply not good picks, especially when one takes into consideration who was left at the time they were selected, coupled with team needs.

 

Whitner was a #8 overall selection in the 2006 draft which was deep and loaded with talent. In 2008 our offensive line sucked. We drafted McKelvin who took years to play well. Clady was selected with the next pick and Branden Albert went 3 picks later. Moves like these destroy franchises. I consider these selections to be "busts." People who want to justify dumb moves by the Bills will point out how these players don't "suck," and they are right. But, they absolutely did not play to the level at which they were drafted. Now, is this the fault of the player? Not at all.

 

Imo, it's fine to not want to label players such as the above as "busts." But in terms of where they were drafted, they sure would seem to be. Williams? From what I have seen of him, he does suck. Maybe it's due to injury. Who really knows? But he certainly was a "bust" as a free agent signing, and perhaps even as a draft selection.

 

Jmo.

 

 

Thanks for the kind word.

 

It sounds as though "bust" gets used for two purposes:

1) To describe a guy who was a poor draft (or FA) selection by the drafting (signing) team, especially given the talent available in the draft class, in the sense of failing to have a positive impact commensurate with his draft position (or FA contract) This is your definition, if I understand correctly? And perhaps it's No Saints, as well.

 

This sucks for the team, but really has (IMO) more to do with a poor scouting and player personnel department mis-grading the player, than it does with the player.

 

2) To describe a football player who simply can't play in the NFL. JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Torrell Troup, and Aaron Maybin would be examples of this, but McKelvin, Whitner, Spiller, Easley, and Carrington would not since they did eventually deliver NFL quality play. I give players a pass for healing from injury.

 

By definition 1), I would have to agree with NoSaint and with you that Chris Williams was a bust for the Bears, in that he was drafted to play LT and washed out of that position, and it could be argued a bust for us since we got only a couple of games out of him last year and he was not the impactful player that we signed him to be.

By definition 2), I would say he's not a bust in that he did play at a serviceable NFL level for several years as a guard (albeit not a top level).

 

I can see the point of both definitions - I just wish we could come up with a different term or word for the two.

[NoSaint]

 

Thanks for the kind word.

 

It sounds as though "bust" gets used for two purposes:

1) To describe a guy who was a poor draft (or FA) selection by the drafting (signing) team, especially given the talent available in the draft class, in the sense of failing to have a positive impact commensurate with his draft position (or FA contract) This is your definition, if I understand correctly? And perhaps it's No Saints, as well.

 

This sucks for the team, but really has (IMO) more to do with a poor scouting and player personnel department mis-grading the player, than it does with the player.

 

2) To describe a football player who simply can't play in the NFL. JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Torrell Troup, and Aaron Maybin would be examples of this, but McKelvin, Whitner, Spiller, Easley, and Carrington would not since they did eventually deliver NFL quality play. I give players a pass for healing from injury.

 

By definition 1), I would have to agree with NoSaint and with you that Chris Williams was a bust for the Bears, in that he was drafted to play LT and washed out of that position, and it could be argued a bust for us since we got only a couple of games out of him last year and he was not the impactful player that we signed him to be.

By definition 2), I would say he's not a bust in that he did play at a serviceable NFL level for several years as a guard (albeit not a top level).

 

I can see the point of both definitions - I just wish we could come up with a different term or word for the two.

Ill agree there are a few ways to look at the word but Chris Williams was a top 15 pick that didnt survive his rookie contract. if gilmore was messy enough that he was moved to safety, then benched, then not active and then cut.... hed have been a bust for the bills even if he went on to be a journeyman contributor in the league

 

as a perhaps comparable low level starter, but acceptable backup...... its hard not to call someone like a kraig urbik a bust if hes a top 15 pick, but as a guy claimed off waivers with a cheap contract he fills a nice role.

 

a guy like easley as a 4th rounder is a whole different beast.

Edited May 27, 2015 by NoSaint

[eball]

 

Your post is sound.

 

 

As for the bolded, my definition of a "bust" is far different than yours. It's a bit of a sore spot with me (not that you should agree mind you). Draft selections such as Donte Whitner and Leodis McKelvin were simply not good picks, especially when one takes into consideration who was left at the time they were selected, coupled with team needs.

 

Whitner was a #8 overall selection in the 2006 draft which was deep and loaded with talent. In 2008 our offensive line sucked. We drafted McKelvin who took years to play well. Clady was selected with the next pick and Branden Albert went 3 picks later. Moves like these destroy franchises. I consider these selections to be "busts." People who want to justify dumb moves by the Bills will point out how these players don't "suck," and they are right. But, they absolutely did not play to the level at which they were drafted. Now, is this the fault of the player? Not at all.

 

Imo, it's fine to not want to label players such as the above as "busts." But in terms of where they were drafted, they sure would seem to be. Williams? From what I have seen of him, he does suck. Maybe it's due to injury. Who really knows? But he certainly was a "bust" as a free agent signing, and perhaps even as a draft selection.

 

Jmo.

 

Bill, wouldn't it make more sense to call players such as Schittner and Leodis "over-drafted" rather than "busts" when they've both proven they can play at a somewhat high level in this league?

 

It just seems like sloppy use of language (IMO) to use the term "bust" simply because you didn't like where they were drafted. You're either a trailblazer or an outlier, using the term in that way.

 

A "bust" is a player who just didn't work out. Erik Flowers' photo is in the dictionary next to the word. An alternate definition features an image of Mike Williams.

[Pete]

I don’t know if he’s going to be planning on coming back or what; I haven’t seen him. I haven’t talked to him, I haven’t seen him. I don’t even know what he looks like. I know these are voluntary-type things, so that’s fine. I don’t know if he’s better than all of the rest of these guys, because all the rest of them are here."

Rex Ryan (via The Buffalo News)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

Bill, wouldn't it make more sense to call players such as Schittner and Leodis "over-drafted" rather than "busts" when they've both proven they can play at a somewhat high level in this league?

 

It just seems like sloppy use of language (IMO) to use the term "bust" simply because you didn't like where they were drafted. You're either a trailblazer or an outlier, using the term in that way.

 

A "bust" is a player who just didn't work out. Erik Flowers' photo is in the dictionary next to the word. An alternate definition features an image of Mike Williams.

 

I like this idea. Call 'em OD or ODP (overdrafted) player. I would certainly agree Williams was overdrafted and didn't work out as what he was drafted for by the Bears.

 

It just seems too complicated otherwise. "Oh, we drafted him as a WR and he plays well as a STer which would make him a bust except it was the fourth round and that's different...."

Ill agree there are a few ways to look at the word but Chris Williams was a top 15 pick that didnt survive his rookie contract. if gilmore was messy enough that he was moved to safety, then benched, then not active and then cut.... hed have been a bust for the bills even if he went on to be a journeyman contributor in the league

 

as a perhaps comparable low level starter, but acceptable backup...... its hard not to call someone like a kraig urbik a bust if hes a top 15 pick, but as a guy claimed off waivers with a cheap contract he fills a nice role.

 

a guy like easley as a 4th rounder is a whole different beast.

 

It could be just me but as per back-n-forth with Bill I think that's confusing usage of bust. Williams was overdrafted and disappointing to the Bears. Fact remains, they got a couple years of servicable guard play out of him and so did the Rams, which is more than one gets out of players who are "busts" in what I believe to be the more typical use of the word (I could be wrong though, maybe I'm the outlier). We probably overpaid for his skill level - I personally think but can't prove, Marrone's hard-on for big lumbering behemoth guards had something to do with that. And I don't count IR against a player, you may disagree, but it's a tough game and that's the cost of doing business. If we wind up having paid him $5.5M to play 4 games and retire, I'll join you and call him a bust, likewise if he gets his ass benched by a 3rd round rookie.

[GG]

 

I like this idea. Call 'em OD or ODP (overdrafted) player. I would certainly agree Williams was overdrafted and didn't work out as what he was drafted for by the Bears.

 

It just seems too complicated otherwise. "Oh, we drafted him as a WR and he plays well as a STer which would make him a bust except it was the fourth round and that's different...."

 

It could be just me but as per back-n-forth with Bill I think that's confusing usage of bust. Williams was overdrafted and disappointing to the Bears. Fact remains, they got a couple years of servicable guard play out of him and so did the Rams, which is more than one gets out of players who are "busts" in what I believe to be the more typical use of the word (I could be wrong though, maybe I'm the outlier). We probably overpaid for his skill level - I personally think but can't prove, Marrone's hard-on for big lumbering behemoth guards had something to do with that. And I don't count IR against a player, you may disagree, but it's a tough game and that's the cost of doing business. If we wind up having paid him $5.5M to play 4 games and retire, I'll join you and call him a bust, likewise if he gets his ass benched by a 3rd round rookie.

 

Overdrafting is among the definitions of a bust, especially when you consider the opportunity cost of not drafting another player that high. Expectations for first round draftees are high, especially as you get closer to the top of the draft. A first round pick should be a consistent starter, if not an All-Pro. Serviceable players are the guys you expect to land in rounds 4 & later.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

He's either super confident that his roster spot is safe or he's about to retire.

I can't see the former. New decision makers coaching the o line and lots of up and coming younger players.

[NoSaint]

 

I like this idea. Call 'em OD or ODP (overdrafted) player. I would certainly agree Williams was overdrafted and didn't work out as what he was drafted for by the Bears.

 

It just seems too complicated otherwise. "Oh, we drafted him as a WR and he plays well as a STer which would make him a bust except it was the fourth round and that's different...."

 

 

It could be just me but as per back-n-forth with Bill I think that's confusing usage of bust. Williams was overdrafted and disappointing to the Bears. Fact remains, they got a couple years of servicable guard play out of him and so did the Rams, which is more than one gets out of players who are "busts" in what I believe to be the more typical use of the word (I could be wrong though, maybe I'm the outlier). We probably overpaid for his skill level - I personally think but can't prove, Marrone's hard-on for big lumbering behemoth guards had something to do with that. And I don't count IR against a player, you may disagree, but it's a tough game and that's the cost of doing business. If we wind up having paid him $5.5M to play 4 games and retire, I'll join you and call him a bust, likewise if he gets his ass benched by a 3rd round rookie.

I think you are waaaaay overthinking the word bust, and also putting a lot of stock into what I think is a fairly arbitrary declaration of "serviceable guard play for a few years.... He had 38 starts total as a bear. As a top 15 pick, that is a bad selection given the gift of hindsight. Bust? Disappointment? It's a bad draft pick whatever you call him.

[BarleyNY]

Usually the first day of the season.

To clarify for others: Roster bonuses are usually near the beginning of the start of the league year (around the start of free agency), but can be on any date throughout the season or even calendar year. Obviously stronger contracts that favor the player will have the roster bonus due right when FA starts so that the player can be in on the big initial frenzy. Weaker contracts put them in later so that the player has less options if asked to take a pay cut or is cut outright.

 

The first game of the season is when some players contracts have guarantees kick in (not in this case) and sometimes even a roster bonus due. Some even have roster bonuses due throughout the season. What made me curious about this roster bonus is that it apparently hasn't come up yet, but you'd think it would be soon. Knowing the date would tell us a lot about the situation. Maybe it is a post June 1st date, which would give the Bills some more options including trading him after the deadline concerning signing bonus acceleration. It would also increase the chances that some team has enough OL injuries that they get desperate enough to trade for a player like him.

 

Also there is no need to cut him if his bonus is due prior to the first game of the season (which it almost certainly is). The Bills just dont pay it and he's a free agent.

Edited May 28, 2015 by BarleyNY

[Bill from NYC]

 

Overdrafting is among the definitions of a bust, especially when you consider the opportunity cost of not drafting another player that high. Expectations for first round draftees are high, especially as you get closer to the top of the draft. A first round pick should be a consistent starter, if not an All-Pro. Serviceable players are the guys you expect to land in rounds 4 & later.

This is the way I view it.

 

In an act of stupidity, Levy/Jauron drafted Whitner at #8. Levy said that he turned down multiple trade offers and again, it was a very solid draft class. Whitner held out then arrived in town and had a "minor" domestic incident. He went on to collect approx. 36 million real dollars from the Bills. 36 MILLION DOLLARS!!!

Did he win us games? I seem to remember 1, this in a 5 year span. There is no way for me to look at this selection as anything but an awful pick, and I saw it coming the very second he was drafted.

I suppose it's all a matter of semantics. Was Whitner a bust? Did Levy/Jauron bust out on this (and most) selections?

 

Either way, the fact that he didn't completely suck did not win games for the Buffalo Bills.

[thebandit27]

Speaking of OL busts...

 

@adamteicher: Interesting development at Chiefs practice. Eric Fisher was working with 2nd team. Stephenson was starting LT

 

#1 overall pick in 2013

 

That 2013 draft was just awful with regard to OL.

[YoloinOhio]

 

That 2013 draft was just awful with regard to OL.

Lane Johnson was the 3rd OL taken, right? He's ok but already busted once for PEDs Edited May 28, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[thebandit27]

Lane Johnson was the 3rd OL taken, right? He's ok but already busted once for PEDs

 

Yes...in the top 11:

 

Fisher - KC: working with 2nd team at LT

Joeckel - Jax: Injruies and inconsistent play has people talking bust

Johnson - Phi: Been adequate in Philly outside rookie struggles and PED suspension

Cooper - Ari: Total bust so far

Warmack - Ten: Done virtually nothing to help the running game

Fluker - SD: Okay as a rookie; regressed to the point where they signed Barksdale to replace him at RT, prompting a move to RG.

[YoloinOhio]

 

Yes...in the top 11:

 

Fisher - KC: working with 2nd team at LT

Joeckel - Jax: Injruies and inconsistent play has people talking bust

Johnson - Phi: Been adequate in Philly outside rookie struggles and PED suspension

Cooper - Ari: Total bust so far

Warmack - Ten: Done virtually nothing to help the running game

Fluker - SD: Okay as a rookie; regressed to the point where they signed Barksdale to replace him at RT, prompting a move to RG.

well that's just depressing

[thebandit27]

well that's just depressing

 

And to think back on all of the chatter about drafting Warmack at 8th overall...Whaley's best move might've been trading out of the top 10 and netting the pick that brought Kiko