DrDawkinstein Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 The point to remember being, that is true of even the most successful GMs and FOs. If they are hitting 50% or better on roster moves, they are doing very well. Batting .400 (which means you still miss more than you hit) will get you a first ballot Hall of Fame nod.
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Bit dramatic aren't we? It wasn't one of his worst moves ever. We traded a 4th for him big deal if he doesn't work out. His worst move ever was probably drafting Manuel. I know we have to call QBs busts after 2 years but EJ is going to have a chance to prove himself this year. I'm doubtful Brown is going to be on the team. And I'm crazy but I think it's harder to learn to be a QB than a rb. Brown was very expendable for the Eagles and we had Spiller/ Jackson/ Dixon who all out produced him. A Bryce Brown enters the NFL every year. Obviously, it wasn't a super high pick but IMO, it was a pick that could be used for a position that isn't as easy to find (qulaity Gs can be found later in the draft). Whaley has done a great job. I was never a fan of this trade.
GG Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 On top of that, when they made the trade for Brown, there was no way they could have anticipated McCoy falling into their lap. Fumbling issues aside, I think there is (or was maybe) a fair number of people out there that felt that Brown is a better than average running back. If we hadn't landed McCoy, most here would still be counting on Brown as a guy who could potentially have a big year for us, and a great option to replace Spiller, at a decent price. I'm not sure about that. If McCoy didn't fall into their lap it was near certain that Spiller was returning and if not, they would have set their sights on one of the FAs or addressed the position earlier in the draft. From Lynn's interview, it sounds like the coaching staff wasn't that high on Brown.
NoSaint Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 On top of that, when they made the trade for Brown, there was no way they could have anticipated McCoy falling into their lap. Fumbling issues aside, I think there is (or was maybe) a fair number of people out there that felt that Brown is a better than average running back. If we hadn't landed McCoy, most here would still be counting on Brown as a guy who could potentially have a big year for us, and a great option to replace Spiller, at a decent price. agreed. if we didnt get mccoy, hed very much be considered in the mix.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Williams and Rivers are the 45th to 53rd man on the roster. They are back ups. IF you are scrutinizing Whaley as back ups for very little money as big whiffs I think you are generally a pessimistic angry individual. Salary cap prevents ALL teams and owners from having 53 strong players and must take swings on players for inexpensive contracts. Don't be angry, enjoy the run and what Whaley has strongly helped to build! You're durn straight. Rosters are kept alive by scouting for possible gems who didn't pan out for their 1st or sometimes 2nd team but might be servicable. Hughes for Sheppard is an example of one such that worked very well for the Bills. Rivers is an example or a similar pickup, except we didn't need to trade for him - a former-1st round pick signed as LB depth last off-season and in the hope the light would go on. He was competing to start, was beaten out as a starter, did OK as a body filling in for injuries, and was made expendable by Rex's likely base scheme and the other personnel we have. The fact that Dallas scooped him up immediately says he isn't seen as a dud, just not the right guy for us. But that's exactly the right strategy - bring in some vets to compete with rookies, let the best man win the job. If every draftee and every vet makes the roster, it only means we aren't bringing in enough competition. Williams, on the other hand, was definitely signed to be a starting guard for starting guard money. Whether he was hiding a back injury when signed or was legitimately injured in preseason/early games, can't say - but injuries happen. The fact that he isn't here participating in voluntary OTAs doesn't give one a warm fuzzy about his injury status and recovery, and I personally don't have a warm fuzzy that we've done enough to build our OL, but we'll see. Again, though, it's the right kind of move to make, and just as some guys brought in won't work out, others will be injured and wash out.
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Put it this way, would rather have Brown in the 4th (with some NFL miles on him) or Alfred Blue in the 6th or Strom Johnson in the 7th. General rule, don't trade for non elite rbs.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Brown was very expendable for the Eagles and we had Spiller/ Jackson/ Dixon who all out produced him. A Bryce Brown enters the NFL every year. Obviously, it wasn't a super high pick but IMO, it was a pick that could be used for a position that isn't as easy to find (qulaity Gs can be found later in the draft). Whaley has done a great job. I was never a fan of this trade. Biscuit, is that really true? Brown's calling card is blazing speed - 4.38 40yd vs Spiller 4.37 40yd. And, he can catch. Is it true that guys with that speed and other physical gifts (receiving) enter the NFL every year and can be snagged in the later rounds? I wasn't a big fan of the trade just because of who Brown is - his track record as a guy who quit on 2 teams in college and really hasn't proven anything since high school. But I think I understand it. If you want a potential backup to a guy with blazing speed (Spiller), you need a guy with blazing speed and some see a guy who has at least made it onto a roster and stuck for a few years in the NFL as being a surer bet than a draft choice. McCoy has been pretty durable, and Roman seems to like a variety of role-players - the workhorse skill player (McCoy), the bruiser-between-the tackles (Dixon, Williams), the fullback. I think it's very possible that Brown can make the roster as McCoy's backup if he comes in fit and with his head in the playbook and beats out FredEx, which several players have determined is easier to accomplish in theory than in pads while holding a football. But if he can't or won't block and can't or won't wait for a play to develop and follow his blockers instead of bouncing it outside, he's going onto the cutout bin. Maybe he's dealing with complications, a preemie, various medical conditions. Or maybe he's doing exactly what he did in college, quitting on a team and looking for the Nex Big Thing.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Brown was and still is a better chance at becoming a good starting RB in the NFL as any fourth round pick, including Karlos Williams who we picked in the fifth round. He's just not needed on the Bills right now. He's also fumbled once in the last two years and it's not like it was a total reckless play, however much a bad fumble and game changer it was. I still blame that one almost as much on Scott Chandler than Brown. If we are still keeping Fred, there is no room or reason for Brown. Edited May 20, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
truth on hold Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) On top of that, when they made the trade for Brown, there was no way they could have anticipated McCoy falling into their lap. Fumbling issues aside, I think there is (or was maybe) a fair number of people out there that felt that Brown is a better than average running back. If we hadn't landed McCoy, most here would still be counting on Brown as a guy who could potentially have a big year for us, and a great option to replace Spiller, at a decent price. McCoy hardly fell into their lap. They paid up big and traded the DRoY runner up. I'd undo that trade in a heartbeat. Use the money to further beef up the oline and other areas of need, and have kiko coming back. The problem wasn't brown or any of the backs last year, it was the interior oline. Edited May 20, 2015 by JTSP
NoSaint Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Put it this way, would rather have Brown in the 4th (with some NFL miles on him) or Alfred Blue in the 6th or Strom Johnson in the 7th. General rule, don't trade for non elite rbs. lets also be honest, more than nfl miles (he has essentially no wear and tear) he comes with nfl tape, which is a perk as picks dont always transition. I get you have your firm rule.... but.....
Buftex Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 McCoy hardly fell into their lap. They paid up big and traded the DRoY runner up. I'd undo that trade in a heartbeat. Use the money to further beef up the oline and other areas of need, and have kiko coming back. The problem wasn't brown or any of the backs last year, it was the interior oline. I meant, that nobody anticipated him being available. He wasn't slated to become a free agent, and he hadn't been dangled as trade bait for months, as often happens. According to Whaley and Pegula, the Bills were offered McCoy, and 30 minutes later they had a deal. That is what I meant by "fall into their laps". I am not arguing the merits of what they traded for McCoy...the topic was Bryce Brown. BTW- There was one of those stat geeks on John Murphy this past week, from Walter Football I think...he suggested that the stats show that our running game woes, in large part, were due to the ineffectiveness of our running backs, as opposed to the popular notion that our line didn't block well for them. Not saying I agree, or would even feel qualified to make that assessment, but that notion is out there...
truth on hold Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 I meant, that nobody anticipated him being available. He wasn't slated to become a free agent, and he hadn't been dangled as trade bait for months, as often happens. According to Whaley and Pegula, the Bills were offered McCoy, and 30 minutes later they had a deal. That is what I meant by "fall into their laps". I am not arguing the merits of what they traded for McCoy...the topic was Bryce Brown. BTW- There was one of those stat geeks on John Murphy this past week, from Walter Football I think...he suggested that the stats show that our running game woes, in large part, were due to the ineffectiveness of our running backs, as opposed to the popular notion that our line didn't block well for them. Not saying I agree, or would even feel qualified to make that assessment, but that notion is out there... I don't care what he says. I know what I saw all year long: guards who got no push in the run game, and often were blown several yards into the backfield. cJ, Fred, and brown had all proven to be capable backs in other situations. They weren't the problem
Buftex Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure about that. If McCoy didn't fall into their lap it was near certain that Spiller was returning and if not, they would have set their sights on one of the FAs or addressed the position earlier in the draft. From Lynn's interview, it sounds like the coaching staff wasn't that high on Brown. At the time they dealt for Brown though, they didn't know what kind of season Spiller was about to have. The Brown trade, in my opinion I guess, was our GM doing some due diligence. He knew how much he wanted to spend on running backs..if Spiller had a great season (which Whaley likely anticipated) he would likely be out of the Bills allotted price range. The fact that he had a disappointing, albeit injury plagued season, but still wasn't accepting the Bills initial offer (which, as I recall was about the same for what he settled for in New Orleans), has to tell you something too. Don't forget, the Bills had been trying to re-sign Spiller, and weren't having any luck. At that time too, though Mr Wilson had already passed away, the Bills ownership situation was in flux, and the Bills were still operating under the old ownerships monetary structure. The fact that people are crying about losing a 4th round pick for what was potentially a solid NFL veteran running back is pretty silly... things must be going pretty well. I don't care what he says. I know what I saw all year long: guards who got no push in the run game, and often were blown several yards into the backfield. cJ, Fred, and brown had all proven to be capable backs in other situations. They weren't the problem Not saying I disagree with you... but that is another topic for another thread I suppose. The Bills apparently liked CJ, Fred and Brown... but not as much as they like McCoy. Edited May 20, 2015 by Buftex
Kelly the Dog Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 At the time they dealt for Brown though, they didn't know what kind of season Spiller was about to have. The Brown trade, in my opinion I guess, was our GM doing some due diligence. He knew how much he wanted to spend on running backs..if Spiller had a great season (which Whaley likely anticipated) he would likely be out of the Bills allotted price range. Don't forget, the Bills had been trying to re-sign Spiller, and weren't having any luck. At that time too, though Mr Wilson had already passed away, the Bills ownership situation was in flux, and the Bills were still operating under the old ownerships monetary structure. The fact that people are crying about losing a 4th round pick for what was potentially a solid NFL veteran running back is pretty silly... things must be going pretty well. Whaley came from the Steelers where they built a deep team and prepared a roster that was meant to sustain its place at the top of the league for the long haul and prepared for the short, mid and long term. The Bills had just had two straight years of injuries to both Fred and Spiller that hurt them badly when Tashard Choice was forced into action or Fred and Spiller played hurt and were ineffective. Fed and Spiller were both to be FA in 2015. Whaley did what the Steelers would do, he prepared for possible injury or loss of player in FA with a guy that had a lot of potential that did not cost much, a 4th rounder. Most 4th rounders across the league do not pan out. He did the same thing with WR.
GG Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Whaley came from the Steelers where they built a deep team and prepared a roster that was meant to sustain its place at the top of the league for the long haul and prepared for the short, mid and long term. The Bills had just had two straight years of injuries to both Fred and Spiller that hurt them badly when Tashard Choice was forced into action or Fred and Spiller played hurt and were ineffective. Fed and Spiller were both to be FA in 2015. Whaley did what the Steelers would do, he prepared for possible injury or loss of player in FA with a guy that had a lot of potential that did not cost much, a 4th rounder. Most 4th rounders across the league do not pan out. He did the same thing with WR. But Steelers don't dangle draft picks to fill those slots, as they're very competent in filling from within or get good value from free agency. Whaley jumped on Brown after Bills' Plan A for drafting Hyde didn't pan out. So while a 4th round pick may not seem that much, it is a lot for a player of Brown's productivity.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 But Steelers don't dangle draft picks to fill those slots, as they're very competent in filling from within or get good value from free agency. Whaley jumped on Brown after Bills' Plan A for drafting Hyde didn't pan out. So while a 4th round pick may not seem that much, it is a lot for a player of Brown's productivity. If you got a player of brown's ability in the fourth round you would be thrilled.
Buftex Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 But Steelers don't dangle draft picks to fill those slots, as they're very competent in filling from within or get good value from free agency. Whaley jumped on Brown after Bills' Plan A for drafting Hyde didn't pan out. So while a 4th round pick may not seem that much, it is a lot for a player of Brown's productivity. When Brown has had a chance to play, he has been productive...can't produce if you don't play.
GG Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 If you got a player of brown's ability in the fourth round you would be thrilled. I think you mean Brown's potential, not ability. The fact that he couldn't cleanly beat out Boobie speaks volumes about his ability and why the new coaching staff doesn't "know" his name..
Kelly the Dog Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) I think you mean Brown's potential, not ability. The fact that he couldn't cleanly beat out Boobie speaks volumes about his ability and why the new coaching staff doesn't "know" his name.. He did beat out Boobie. When Fred and Spiller did not start Brown started. He was brought in to be the third RB. That's what he was. And I'm talking ability not potential. Rex knows his name. He was making a point. Lynn even said that yesterday. Edited May 20, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
YoloinOhio Posted May 20, 2015 Author Posted May 20, 2015 If you got a player of brown's ability in the fourth round you would be thrilled.also, brown was still younger or same age, can't remember, than Hyde even after his experience in the NFL. Brown just turned 24, and has very low mileage. I had no issue with the trade. Dixon is far from an every down back in the NFL and we needed brown last year.
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