Fred ain't Dead

[CountDorkula]

I agree. He still did a lot of things well, but running fast was not one of them.

 

The difference between an Elite back and Fred is speed. Fred breaks into the open field and then gets tackled 15 yards downfield from behind. Where a back like McCoy,Peterson,Murray is off to the races.

 

I have never once though. "Fred can break this for a TD when he gets a ball handed to him" When the ball was deep inside Buffalo territory.

[YoloinOhio]

 

The difference between an Elite back and Fred is speed. Fred breaks into the open field and then gets tackled 15 yards downfield from behind. Where a back like McCoy,Peterson,Murray is off to the races.

 

I have never once though. "Fred can break this for a TD when he gets a ball handed to him" When the ball was deep inside Buffalo territory.

DCs don't think that either, which affects how they were able to defend the Bills last year when they anticipated him getting the ball.

[NoSaint]

DCs don't think that either, which affects how they were able to defend the Bills last year when they anticipated him getting the ball.

yup-- ultimately, if he "breaks one" as its simply on par with a move the chains completion. which is still valuable, but a lack of fear of the home run play certainly effects what a defense will do against us.

[klos63]

I think everyone on TSW is speculating on which RBs will make it on the final roster, and so am I. There are way too many mouths to feed in the backfield, and if Greg Roman's playcalling history is any indication of how the opportunities will be distributed, it looks like Shady will get the vast majority of touches (see Frank Gore). That being said, I don't get how so many of you guys are counting out Fredex. The age is clearly the biggest issue and without watching the game, doubting the 34-year-old guy playing the position that causes the most wear and tear is very sensible conclusion to come to. But Jackson is not your typical back. If he relied and top end speed and agility, or running guys over with brute force, he would've burned out a long time ago (the demise of most backs in the league). But Jackson doesn't rely on being athletically superior to anyone on the field; as you've all witnessed, he uses patience, vision and balance to optimize the space he is given, often just out of would-be tacklers reach and always falling forward.

 

The criticism I read here is that he's lost a step, but I don't see it. He is the guy that saved us in the opener last year against the Bears, despite critics saying the same thing. What has to be acknowledged is the complete lack of creativity and competence of the offensive playcalling last year, which I blame for the stagnant running game even more than the poor line play. Jackson's skill as a back (let's not forget his blocking) far outweighs the athleticism of most other backs, because a lot of them are more athletic and literally all of them are younger. Until he truly shows a drop off in performance, I'm not counting him out.

 

Ultimately its Whaley's decision to make, and by judging his moves to get Brown and drafting Williams I don't think he shares my opinion.

We will find out a lot more once they actually start practicing and playing preseason games. It will be very noticeable how much Fred has left. He did lose a step, which doesn't mean his is ineffective, but not as effective. My guess is that this year, he will lose a bit more, it's natural.

If you really want to make an educated guess on what will happen, wait til the preseason starts.

[NewEra]

FRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!

 

The man, the myth, the legend. He's most definitely our 2nd best back. Thank morron and morris for last years debacle.

[PromoTheRobot]

Fred still has a role as locker room leader. Depth wise he's probably closer to #3 than #2. That said Fred is still a savvy runner and can be effective in spot duty or stepping up if someone gets injured. A lot depends on the O-line. It was one of the worst run blocking lines I'd ever seen last season. I hope the issue was coaching.

[Gugny]

Not true. See my post above about 2011. If he stays healthy, he puts up a better year than Lynch ever did.

 

Dave, common man. You can't throw that big of an "if" into this. Fred has never, on his best day, been 1/10 of the running back Lynch was/is. Better guy? Absolutely. Better RB? Not a chance.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

Dave, common man. You can't throw that big of an "if" into this. Fred has never, on his best day, been 1/10 of the running back Lynch was/is. Better guy? Absolutely. Better RB? Not a chance.

Gug, please...c'mon man.

[dave mcbride]

 

You just extrapolated out almost half a season for FJ and then attempt to discredit McCoy who actually played and got that yardage in all 16 games.

 

I mean, come on.

I certainly did not mean to denigrate McCoy; I was just pointing out how well Jackson played that year in relative terms. Jackson played 62.5 percent of the season, which is a fair bit more than half. After game 10, he was second in the league in yards from scrimmage (just behind Matt Forte) and going into that Dolphins game (after 9 games) he was leading the league in rushing with a 5.5 ypc clip. It was the sort of injury that could happen to any player in the league.

Again, that's elite-level performance. I don't know why people have such a hard time admitting this. I mean, he's a likable player!

[NoSaint]

Fred still has a role as locker room leader. Depth wise he's probably closer to #3 than #2. That said Fred is still a savvy runner and can be effective in spot duty or stepping up if someone gets injured. A lot depends on the O-line. It was one of the worst run blocking lines I'd ever seen last season. I hope the issue was coaching.

yea, i think he will get some touches as a 3rd down back (maybe not literally 3rd down, but that kind of situational spot duty) and if mccoy gets hurt I think he wouldnt step into the number 1 role, but instead the team would create a pretty wide rotation between the remaining guys. of course, Imo

I certainly did not mean to denigrate McCoy; I was just pointing out how well Jackson played that year in relative terms. Jackson played 62.5 percent of the season, which is a fair bit more than half. After game 10, he was second in the league in yards from scrimmage (just behind Matt Forte) and going into that Dolphins game (after 9 games) he was leading the league in rushing with a 5.5 ypc clip. It was the sort of injury that could happen to any player in the league.

Again, that's elite-level performance. I don't know why people have such a hard time admitting this. I mean, he's a likable player!

i think the issue is you are comparing him to a guy that has played like that for 80 games instead of 10.

 

hes a very talented player, but with it being such a short window its hard to say it wasnt just a hot streak.

[QB Bills]

Keep the bashing coming. It appears as though many of you haven't actually watched McCoy play, but are just going by the stat sheet. The guy is good, but has been very fortunate throughout his time in Philly. He's had the benefit of having one of the best o-lines as well as some of the best offensive coaching in the league throughout his career. Look at how any of the backups have done while he's been there...Brown, Sproles, etc. And not to mention, he's got quite a bit of mileage on him now.

 

As for Fred, he's never had a good o-line despite what the genius upthread is saying. In terms of offensive acumen, Gailey is the only decent coach he's had. Compared to Andy Reid and Chip Kelly, what he's dealt with is laughable. He outplayed Lynch while he was here, who is now considered one of the best in the league. He outplayed Spiller. And he will now outplay the latest hotshot here to take his job.

 

McCoy had the luxury of running through gaping holes and getting to the second level where he did most of his damage while in Philly. He will not have that here. I hope he does well, but I'm just warning many of you to temper your enthusiasm. You may have the same gripes with McCoy as you did with Spiller. Too much dancing behind the line and not enough powering through. Whereas someone like Fred knows when to put his head down and drive into a tackler, but is also elite at making the first guy miss. Not to mention he's a better blocker and receiver too. No, he doesn't have the top end speed as some, but he never has. That's not his game.

 

As for him losing a step or whatever, please keep in mind that he has less career carries than McCoy. A fact easily overlooked by the resident ageists on the board.

 

The running game will be improved with Roman and Kromer here now, and the biggest beneficiary will be Fred.

[Gugny]

Gug, please...c'mon man.

2007: Lynch - 1115 yds; 7 TD; 4 YPC

Fred - 300 yds; 0 TD; 5.2 YPC

 

2008: Lynch - 1036 yds; 8 TD; 4.1 YPC

Fred - 571 yds; 3 TD; 4.4 YPC

 

2009: Lynch - 450 yds; 2 TD; 3.8 YPC

Fred - 1062 yds; 2 TD; 4.5 YPC

[hondo in seattle]

 

1) Because teams found better backs

2) so did many other good backs, that has nothgin to do with how good you are

3) This is false. in Freds best years he ran behind arguably the best o-line in the league at that time

4) This is kind of key to being good, being able to stay healthy.

 

If you were to place a pole of fans from around the league from every fan base, Fred Jackson does not make top 10. He is a loveable Bill. Much like Brian Moorman was. Fred Jackson, good running back, never a best all around.

 

 

Wrong on 3 of 4 counts...

 

1. We had higher draft picks (Lynch, CJ) who took carries away from Freddy but Fred beat them both out in the end.

 

2. Playing for a losing team always taints a player's reputation. On the flip side, playing for a SB team enhances a player's reputation (For example, I don't think John Stallworth makes the HOF if not for playing on the Steelers).

 

3. Saying anything superlative about the OLs Freddy played behind tells me you're a stats guy. I'm not because stats can lie. I look at actual performance. In Fred's best years, the OL had very little push in short yardage situations. We ran a quick hitting passing attack to minimize sacks because the linemen couldn't sustain their blocks. And Fred was getting a lot of yards after contact because they're weren't a lot of yards available before contact. Our OL has been below average for a long, long time. Fred helped make them look better than they really were and never complained about it.

 

4. Staying healthy is indeed a key to being good/productive. Sadly, Fred hasn't always been able to stay on the field.

 

Let's forget about polling uninformed fans. If you would have polled AFCE defensive players after 2011 (in other words, players who knew Freddy well), I'm convinced they would have rated Freddy as one of the best backs in the league. And forget the stats and just watch the highlights. Examine Fred's skill set. Evaluate how many free yards he got in gaping holes versus how many yards he had to earn. And watch him pass protect on blitzes and see how he contributes on every play. The guy was a beast.

[Gugny]

 

 

Wrong on 3 of 4 counts...

 

1. We had higher draft picks (Lynch, CJ) who took carries away from Freddy but Fred beat them both out in the end.

 

2. Playing for a losing team always taints a player's reputation. On the flip side, playing for a SB team enhances a player's reputation (For example, I don't think John Stallworth makes the HOF if not for playing on the Steelers).

 

3. Saying anything superlative about the OLs Freddy played behind tells me you're a stats guy. I'm not because stats can lie. I look at actual performance. In Fred's best years, the OL had very little push in short yardage situations. We ran a quick hitting passing attack to minimize sacks because the linemen couldn't sustain their blocks. And Fred was getting a lot of yards after contact because they're weren't a lot of yards available before contact. Our OL has been below average for a long, long time. Fred helped make them look better than they really were and never complained about it.

 

4. Staying healthy is indeed a key to being good/productive. Sadly, Fred hasn't always been able to stay on the field.

 

Let's forget about polling uninformed fans. If you would have polled AFCE defensive players after 2011 (in other words, players who knew Freddy well), I'm convinced they would have rated Freddy as one of the best backs in the league. And forget the stats and just watch the highlights. Examine Fred's skill set. Evaluate how many free yards he got in gaping holes versus how many yards he had to earn. And watch him pass protect on blitzes and see how he contributes on every play. The guy was a beast.

 

1. No. He didn't. Statistically, both Spiller and Lynch were better than Jackson.

3. Fred ran behind the same caliber OL that Spiller and Lynch ran behind; sometimes, the same exact line.

 

I love Fred and he's been a "great" back at times. He's never been elite and he's never sucked. He's gone between good and great, which is fine by me.

 

But the only thing Spiller didn't do better was block. He was better than Fred in every other facet of the position. And Lynch has always just been a lot better than Fred. Lynch is elite.

[Kirby Jackson]

Keep the bashing coming. It appears as though many of you haven't actually watched McCoy play, but are just going by the stat sheet. The guy is good, but has been very fortunate throughout his time in Philly. He's had the benefit of having one of the best o-lines as well as some of the best offensive coaching in the league throughout his career. Look at how any of the backups have done while he's been there...Brown, Sproles, etc. And not to mention, he's got quite a bit of mileage on him now.

 

As for Fred, he's never had a good o-line despite what the genius upthread is saying. In terms of offensive acumen, Gailey is the only decent coach he's had. Compared to Andy Reid and Chip Kelly, what he's dealt with is laughable. He outplayed Lynch while he was here, who is now considered one of the best in the league. He outplayed Spiller. And he will now outplay the latest hotshot here to take his job.

 

McCoy had the luxury of running through gaping holes and getting to the second level where he did most of his damage while in Philly. He will not have that here. I hope he does well, but I'm just warning many of you to temper your enthusiasm. You may have the same gripes with McCoy as you did with Spiller. Too much dancing behind the line and not enough powering through. Whereas someone like Fred knows when to put his head down and drive into a tackler, but is also elite at making the first guy miss. Not to mention he's a better blocker and receiver too. No, he doesn't have the top end speed as some, but he never has. That's not his game.

 

As for him losing a step or whatever, please keep in mind that he has less career carries than McCoy. A fact easily overlooked by the resident ageists on the board.

 

The running game will be improved with Roman and Kromer here now, and the biggest beneficiary will be Fred.

No offense but I do not think that we are the people that haven't seen McCoy play. If you asked 32 GMs who the better back is you would get 32 votes for McCoy. Again, Fred Jackson is one of my favorite Bills players ever and without question my favorite since the Super Bowl teams. In no ways would I ever hate on the guy but we still have to be somewhat objective. I hate Tom Brady but have no problem admitting that he is a better QB than anyone that we have ever had.

[CountDorkula]

Keep the bashing coming. It appears as though many of you haven't actually watched McCoy play, but are just going by the stat sheet. The guy is good, but has been very fortunate throughout his time in Philly. He's had the benefit of having one of the best o-lines as well as some of the best offensive coaching in the league throughout his career. Look at how any of the backups have done while he's been there...Brown, Sproles, etc. And not to mention, he's got quite a bit of mileage on him now.

 

As for Fred, he's never had a good o-line despite what the genius upthread is saying. In terms of offensive acumen, Gailey is the only decent coach he's had. Compared to Andy Reid and Chip Kelly, what he's dealt with is laughable. He outplayed Lynch while he was here, who is now considered one of the best in the league. He outplayed Spiller. And he will now outplay the latest hotshot here to take his job.

 

McCoy had the luxury of running through gaping holes and getting to the second level where he did most of his damage while in Philly. He will not have that here. I hope he does well, but I'm just warning many of you to temper your enthusiasm. You may have the same gripes with McCoy as you did with Spiller. Too much dancing behind the line and not enough powering through. Whereas someone like Fred knows when to put his head down and drive into a tackler, but is also elite at making the first guy miss. Not to mention he's a better blocker and receiver too. No, he doesn't have the top end speed as some, but he never has. That's not his game.

 

As for him losing a step or whatever, please keep in mind that he has less career carries than McCoy. A fact easily overlooked by the resident ageists on the board.

 

The running game will be improved with Roman and Kromer here now, and the biggest beneficiary will be Fred.

 

Philly is my NFC team, mostly because I started rooting for them to beat the pants off the NFC East because they are the only team that has not beat the Bills in a superbowl. I have followed them ever since. Philly o-line has never been considered great on the o-line. Andy Reid masked a lot of o line problems with his screen game.

 

As for Fred Having less carries, in the NFL that was certainly true. But you act like he was not playing football. What about Freds time in the arena league and NFL Europe? Do those carries not count against his body wear and tear?

[beerfriday]

Fred's outlasted McGahee, Spiller and Lynch. That's the main reason not to count him out.

 

 

For me, so many times we needed a play last year, Fred came through. It's a tough intangible, but I hope the coaching staff & personnel staff recognize that that goes beyong what happens in practice.

[CountDorkula]

Fred's outlasted McGahee, Spiller and Lynch. That's the main reason not to count him out.

 

 

For me, so many times we needed a play last year, Fred came through. It's a tough intangible, but I hope the coaching staff & personnel staff recognize that that goes beyong what happens in practice.

 

One play, against Chicago.

 

He averaged 37 Yds per game last year. How many plays can you make when you average that many yards?

 

Many people are again choosing heart over head. We all love Fred, but time shows he is not the best option for the Bills anymore.

[NoSaint]

Fred's outlasted McGahee, Spiller and Lynch. That's the main reason not to count him out.

 

 

For me, so many times we needed a play last year, Fred came through. It's a tough intangible, but I hope the coaching staff & personnel staff recognize that that goes beyong what happens in practice.

unfortunately, he cant outlast every player we bring in forever. as the oldest rb in the league (i believe by a couple years) hes certainly done his share of outlasting guys, but its got to end at some point.

[ThrowingFitz]

I hope Fred is given a coaching opportunity after this year. I would love to see him mentoring our running core. He is not the most gifted athlete but makes up for it with patience, vision, and technique. patience and technique are his assets that could be passed on.

Edited May 14, 2015 by ThrowingFitz