metzelaars_lives Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) He does not have "blazing" speed by any means. He has repeatedly been unable to pick up 1st downs when they get the ball in his hands. He is decent in ST coverage, but we have other players that can do that too. We're discussing the #4 WR spot here, so it's not like he'll get that many chances, and when the #4 WR does get a touch, they need to have an impact. Hogan's touches usually underwhelm. Goodwin's touches usually pick up big chunks of yards. Nothing to do with race. You mean Goodwin's "touch." Ha ha, from my standpoint it has nothing to do with race. I have never been a Hogan fan (and I am white). I think that he does everything average and was given a TON of opportunities for someone of his skill set. The Bills were 31st last year in receiving yards in the slot and were 1-6 when Chandler and Hogan (the 2 non threats) caught 7+ balls. The only win was Minnesota and the Bills were atrocious in that game. Teams want the ball to go to the guys that aren't dangerous. He is very much on the bubble because he does everything just okay. Does he belong in the NFL? He sure does. That does not mean that he is a good fit here at this point. He may make the team because he is the most complete of the 3 and the best injury insurance. If they plan on playing the 5th WR to dress in special packages he is the worst fit of the 3. They just re-signed him to a 4 year deal this off season. Ok reasonable post. I don't disagree that if Goodwin gets as many touches that he doesn't break more big plays. Obviously. My assertion would be that in the same number of snaps he doesn't get nearly the touches. Maybe it was a function of marrone not knowing how to utilize him. After all, he is coaching in Jacksonville now. Just in case people didn't know that. Edited May 13, 2015 by metzelaars_lives
DrDawkinstein Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 You mean Goodwin's "touch." With Marrone sabotaging the Offense last year, sure. And that touch last season went for 42 yards. When they were both seeing regular game time (2013), Goodwin's catches averaged 16+ yards, Hogan averaged about 8.
Kirby Jackson Posted May 13, 2015 Author Posted May 13, 2015 You mean Goodwin's "touch." Ok reasonable post. I don't disagree that if Goodwin gets as many touches that he doesn't break more big plays. Obviously. My assertion would be that in the same number of snaps he doesn't get nearly the touches. That is exactly why he is on the bubble (barring a preseason injury to someone higher on the depth chart). Do they want the guy that would be the most impactful if he played 30 snaps or the guy that will be most impactful in 7? At the moment those guys would be slated for 7ish. If an injury happens that number will jump significantly. It really depends on how the coaches view the bottom of the roster.
Saxum Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Mike Williams is a prime example of this. Sometimes I thought Marrone traded for him just so he could punish him for the SU days and make him sit every week. I wish posters would stop making stuff up to fit their points of view; 1. Marrone did not trade for him, front office did. 2. Not a team has signed him; I have not even heard a report that he was even visited any teams.
metzelaars_lives Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 (edited) With Marrone sabotaging the Offense last year, sure. And that touch last season went for 42 yards. When they were both seeing regular game time (2013), Goodwin's catches averaged 16+ yards, Hogan averaged about 8. Can't debate this much longer and I don't really think we're that far off but Hogan did not see regular game action in 2013. Last year he did and he had 41 catches at 10.4 ypc. In 2013 Goodwin saw regular game action as well with 17 catches at 16.6 ypc. So the trade off is pretty apparent in those numbers. Although no one is averaging 16.6 ypc with all those 3 yard outs Hogan caught last year. Quite honestly, I like both players. I'll leave it at that. Edited May 13, 2015 by metzelaars_lives
Kirby Jackson Posted May 13, 2015 Author Posted May 13, 2015 Can't debate this much longer and I don't really think we're that far off but Hogan did not see regular game action in 2013. Last year he did and he had 41 catches at 10.4 ypc. In 2013 Goodwin saw regular game action as well with 17 catches at 16.6 ypc. So the trade off is pretty apparent in those numbers. Although no one is averaging 16.6 ypc with all those 3 yard outs Hogan caught last year. Quite honestly, I like both players. I'll leave it at that. I think that is one of the nice things about this debate. We are talking about NFL players. The same will be the case at the bottom of the CB depth chart. There are guys there that belong in this league (Brooks, Cockerill). If they are not here they will be somewhere (Dallas, New England, etc...)
Coach Tuesday Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Agree on the "susceptible to injury" part, but I think you underestimating his talents, when healthy. I like Hogan, but I also think he was given a lot more chances to succeed, under Marrone, than a lot of other guys were. Goodwin had some great moments in 2013, but, (and I don't think I am exaggerating) he didn't finish a single game that year, when he caught a pass. In 2014, perhaps with that in mind, it just seemed that Goodwin, healthy or not, just didn't get any chance to do much of anything...he wasn't the only one. It seemed like Marrone & co. just made their mind up about certain players (Goodwin and Spiller come most immediately to mind) and they just weren't going to waver on them... To me, Hogan is kind of like Scott Chandler, minus 70 pounds. He is not the worst option, but you know you can do better. Marrone and Hackett knew that they were unable to adjust schemes during the game, meaning that if a player was lost due to an injury, the entire gameplan was toast. That's why they didn't trust Spiller and Goodwin. So glad about The Great Opt-Out of 2014.
Buftex Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Marrone and Hackett knew that they were unable to adjust schemes during the game, meaning that if a player was lost due to an injury, the entire gameplan was toast. That's why they didn't trust Spiller and Goodwin. So glad about The Great Opt-Out of 2014. Marrone and Hackett knew that they were unable to adjust schemes during the game, meaning that if a player was lost due to an injury, the entire gameplan was toast. That's why they didn't trust Spiller and Goodwin. So glad about The Great Opt-Out of 2014. Amen! According to Cappacio, the Bills just signed John Connor!
Uffalo Ills Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Hogan has talent. The Flash has speed. I suspect that Harvin shifts over Goodwin, but IDK, Rex likes fast receivers from what I can tell...
8-8 Forever? Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 I think that is the most interesting battle to watch in terms of securing a roster spot (along with CB). Will the Bills keep the guy that is solid and does everything okay (Hogan) or the 2 guys that are limited but offer a unique skill set (Goodwin and Lewis)? It depends 100% on their philosophy. Either way, all of those guys will end up on NFL rosters this year (same goes for the corners). this is kind of the larger point, IMO. This franchise after 15 years of suck finally has 50+ guys who actually belong on an NFL opening day roster. this is very good news from a talent perspective -- we are now finally in the full time business of upgrading from NFL calibre players. awesome. let the gates swing. loyalty goes out the window, talent/performance is all that matters. finally. halleluhah. go bills.
YoloinOhio Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Ouch @viccarucci: Ryan on #Bills WRs: "We have a deep group of talented guys. And if we have to play lacrosse, Chris Hogan is probably the 1st pick."
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 It will be interesting to see if Rex is beholden to Hogan as St Doug was. Did Hogan abuse puppies or something? Never understood the hate. The guy was one of the better WRs in TC. He's got a good motor decent size/speed and played well on special teams. I remember folks said hogan wouldn't top Da'ricks 2013 yard total in his entire career... He had a decent year and made some nice catches. He may not make the bills roster. But he's got just a good a shot as anyone to be the #4 in buffalo. If he is cut, he will land a job. Ouch @viccarucci: Ryan on #Bills WRs: "We have a deep group of talented guys. And if we have to play lacrosse, Chris Hogan is probably the 1st pick." I dunno- I'm picturing MD99 as a crease attackman.... Try and stop him!
PromoTheRobot Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Ouch @viccarucci: Ryan on #Bills WRs: "We have a deep group of talented guys. And if we have to play lacrosse, Chris Hogan is probably the 1st pick." Hilarious, but Hogan would be a Patriot 5 minutes after the Bills cut him.
Dibs Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 I am a bit perplexed as to why the 31st ranking for slot production lies solely on Hogan. Surely system, coaching, playcall, play design, OL production and QB performance contributed to that stat in some meaningful way. For the record I like both Hogan and Goodwin. I also like the concept that we have too many good/decent players for the first time in 2 decades.
Lurker Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 I like him a lot. I think that John Conner being in town is probably not a good thing for Boobie D. Yep. Rex is extremely loyal to "his guys"...heck, he even signed Wes Miller because he reminded him of Jim Leonhard...
Kelly the Dog Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 He does not have "blazing" speed by any means. He has repeatedly been unable to pick up 1st downs when they get the ball in his hands. He is decent in ST coverage, but we have other players that can do that too. We're discussing the #4 WR spot here, so it's not like he'll get that many chances, and when the #4 WR does get a touch, they need to have an impact. Hogan's touches usually underwhelm. Goodwin's touches usually pick up big chunks of yards. Nothing to do with race. Thank you. That's exactly right. Hogan often does not know where the first down marker is. He's often tackled immediately. He doesn't suck anymore and has clearly gotten better but he is not good. There were several games that Goodwin was 100% healthy for and Marrone didn't play him because Goodwin suffered from Marrones Disease.
MikeSpeed Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 This all makes me wonder if Doug Whaley would possible trade a player that is on the bubble to say San Fran for a bag of peanuts just to keep said player out of the AFC/ AFC East? Think about it... Let's say Hogan is the odd man out, but just barely. Why wouldn't Doug trade him for a guy straight up that he doesn't really want, and thinks is bad, just so he can cut the new guy and not have to deal with Hogan being in the division? I think it's a good way to purge the team of good players without helping the competition. It should be pretty easy to find a trading partner that wants a good player for nothing.
Deranged Rhino Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Hilarious, but Hogan would be a Patriot 5 minutes after the Bills cut him. That would be a-okay with me.
YoloinOhio Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 Hilarious, but Hogan would be a Patriot 5 minutes after the Bills cut him.arent they at their max of scrappy white slot guys with edelman and Amendola
Kelly the Dog Posted May 13, 2015 Posted May 13, 2015 arent they at their max of scrappy white slot guys with edelman and Amendola Well, to be fair, they would have two scrappies and one crappy.
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