Bills have the 2nd worst OL in the NFL according to PFF

[John from Riverside]

Exactly, on every count!

 

There is no question that Erik Pears had no business playing RG, and there is little doubt Seantrel Henderson was one of the worst RT's in the league last season. Urbik was an upgrade at LG over Cyril Richardson but not over Chris Williams.

 

When you have a player that is clearly one dimensional in his performance what does it tell you about their skill as a professional player? Would any Bills fan want a defensive player on the team that was only good at pass rushing and horrid against the run or vice versa? A DB that could tackle but couldn't cover, or could cover but couldn't tackle? Imagine a DT that was pushed back five yards on almost every run play. For years the Bills have employed players on their lines that couldn't run block properly even if their lives depended on it.

 

Bills fans should be rejoicing now that Pears is finally gone, and I know I will join them when Urbik is also gone. I don't hate on the bad players, I just want to see some actual talent.

 

What most Fans fail to realize is that once Doug Whaley gave up on the idea of replacing the RG / RT with Jahri Evans, and Brian Bulaga because he wasn't able to obtain either. That he also gave up the idea of a playoff berth that went out the window with those failures. Most just don't get that this team could have had a viable shot at not only a playoff game but a chance to actually win some if they had upgraded, strengthened those positions.

 

How many third round picks have the Bills drafted that became immediate impact starters over the last five years? What are the odds that a player out of the NFL for a year, and no other NFL team was willing to touch will return to pro bowl or even a average form? Whaley might have been able to make the playoffs last year had he signed Incognito at some point. The line play against the Raiders with a playoff berth on the line was downright disgraceful, and better OG play could have helped a great deal.

Oh give me a break

[thewildrabbit]

I think you " might "be narrow minded about Whaley here. Do you think he really has given up on getting the team a championship ? That seems of a stretch of thinking to me.

Now if it was the old day i might agree. Winning with taught purse strings was the old mantra. emphasis on the tight budget allotment .

 

But why would you think Whaley et al dont want to win it all ?

If Kromer and Roman think they have enough to get er dun , then lets roll with that.

Last years team is NOT this years team. even with the exact same players.

But now Bills have another year of exp for those three rooks. Now under a focused and proven professional staff.

I might guess this O line will come out of the shadows with something to prove.

 

as so many say it remains to be seen , and rightly so, but brother i got a good feeling these guys ( whomever they line up ) are going to kick ass!

Go Bills O line!

what do you mean by that ?

Winning games will keep Whaley employed, and we all know that. The Bills had about 6 mill left in cap space targeted for a RT-RG, and Rex wanted WR Percy Harvin... so the Bills signed him. It looks like that WR signing ended any chance of further thought about upgrading those two positions with solid vets due to limited cap space. There was a real reason as to why Whaley was initially chasing those two players. The 2014 O line was horribly bad.

 

Will this years line be improved with a healthy Chris Williams, along with Richie Incognito? In a word, yes. Will they be even close to improved if they had signed Bulaga and Evans, no way. A huge disparity still exists between having a dominate line, and one that can barely scrape by. With Bulaga, Evans they could have fielded a top ten unit which would have given the team the ability to run any offensive scheme they needed to run.

 

 

Some fans like to throw numbers around, so let me throw some. In 2014 the San Francisco 49ers fielded the #9th ranked O line, pass blocking 16th, and run blocking 5th. Now that niners line featured three 1st round picks, and solid pro bowl players. That team was 9th overall in rushing attempts, and 4th in overall rushing yards in the NFL.

 

Then as good as that 49er line is they were only 25th in points, 20th in yards. They still struggled to reach an 8-8 record, and they have their franchise QB in Colin Kaepernick.

 

 

Bottom line here is the Bills missed an opportunity to shore up the weakest area of the team by far with some top players and now have an over abundance of "maybe" players. Maybe Chris Williams stays healthy, and plays well... maybe Incognito returns to his old pro bowl form...maybe the 3rd rounder or one of those three will keep Urbik on the bench. Like I said there is a huge difference between fielding a top 20 line, and a top 10. The Bills don't have a Brady, Luck, Wilson who can still make plays behind a rather weak line. JMO

[dezertbill]

Incognito and Miller will change that. Plus an improved Kouandjio.

[filthymcnasty08]

 

I know right .... anyone with a fraction of football acumen knows young QB's don't need a good OL to develop.

Or accuracy

[3rdand12]

Winning games will keep Whaley employed, and we all know that. The Bills had about 6 mill left in cap space targeted for a RT-RG, and Rex wanted WR Percy Harvin... so the Bills signed him. It looks like that WR signing ended any chance of further thought about upgrading those two positions with solid vets due to limited cap space. There was a real reason as to why Whaley was initially chasing those two players. The 2014 O line was horribly bad.

 

Will this years line be improved with a healthy Chris Williams, along with Richie Incognito? In a word, yes. Will they be even close to improved if they had signed Bulaga and Evans, no way. A huge disparity still exists between having a dominate line, and one that can barely scrape by. With Bulaga, Evans they could have fielded a top ten unit which would have given the team the ability to run any offensive scheme they needed to run.

 

 

Some fans like to throw numbers around, so let me throw some. In 2014 the San Francisco 49ers fielded the #9th ranked O line, pass blocking 16th, and run blocking 5th. Now that niners line featured three 1st round picks, and solid pro bowl players. That team was 9th overall in rushing attempts, and 4th in overall rushing yards in the NFL.

 

Then as good as that 49er line is they were only 25th in points, 20th in yards. They still struggled to reach an 8-8 record, and they have their franchise QB in Colin Kaepernick.

 

 

Bottom line here is the Bills missed an opportunity to shore up the weakest area of the team by far with some top players and now have an over abundance of "maybe" players. Maybe Chris Williams stays healthy, and plays well... maybe Incognito returns to his old pro bowl form...maybe the 3rd rounder or one of those three will keep Urbik on the bench. Like I said there is a huge difference between fielding a top 20 line, and a top 10. The Bills don't have a Brady, Luck, Wilson who can still make plays behind a rather weak line. JMO

I can see your points.

I was very very strong in my wish to grab at least two FA guards , but was fine to give our rooks a season to develop. Henderson especially . Picking up Incognito is going to help, would not have been my choice but i can see him making a big difference. Still wanted another though.

at this point i think Miller will serve.

With the weapons Bills brought in i think it will be pretty hard to suck. But who knows these are our Bills after all

: )

[Big Turk]

Aaron Kromer's coaching alone will be worth 15 spots in the ranking

[dave mcbride]

Sacks are probably weighted more than QB hits though. The reason being that QB hits implies the oline held on for about 0.5 sec longer than an oline that gave up a sack.

Absolutely. And you can bet that Luck held onto balls longer than Orton given his penchant for looking downfield.

How many third round picks have the Bills drafted that became immediate impact starters over the last five years? What are the odds that a player out of the NFL for a year, and no other NFL team was willing to touch will return to pro bowl or even a average form? Whaley might have been able to make the playoffs last year had he signed Incognito at some point. The line play against the Raiders with a playoff berth on the line was downright disgraceful, and better OG play could have helped a great deal.

The last third rounder who made an impact was the most recent one, and he went to the same school as the guy they drafted this year. Edited May 12, 2015 by dave mcbride

[papazoid]

bottom 5 for last years O-line is very fair.

 

so far, the only upgrade is richie, a guy who didn't play last year.

 

unless someone steps up or whaley makes another move, we will be lucky to crack the Top 20.

[thebandit27]

Because those stats dont even begin to tell the whole picture.

 

Actually, that's exactly what they do...they begin to tell the story.

 

I've said over and over on this board: stats don't tell the story; they tell a story.

 

I've never once said that the OL was good last year. I have said, on multiple occasions, that they get far more blame than they deserve.

 

It's far more common, IMO, for an offensive line to appear worse because of poor play by the QBs and RBs (and to a lesser extent, the WRs) than vice versa.

bottom 5 for last years O-line is very fair.

 

so far, the only upgrade is richie, a guy who didn't play last year.

 

unless someone steps up or whaley makes another move, we will be lucky to crack the Top 20.

I would call Miller a clear upgrade in talent over anybody that they had last year.

 

I also have high hopes for Cyril Richardson, who needed to lose some weight (not sure if he has) and get coached up by a decent OL instructor.

[hondo in seattle]

bottom 5 for last years O-line is very fair.

 

so far, the only upgrade is richie, a guy who didn't play last year.

 

unless someone steps up or whaley makes another move, we will be lucky to crack the Top 20.

 

There are actually many POTENTIAL upgrades.

 

Three of our OL were rookies last year. It's not unusual for a lineman to make a big jump in their sophomore year. A new OL coach might make this jump more likely.

 

One of our OL was injured last year and will return to action this year. (Granted, he wasn't a very celebrated lineman).

 

We drafted a rookie who some draft gurus think can capably start his rookie year.

 

We have a different OC this year. Last year, at least one OL complained that the OL was given contrary instructions by the different coaches. That problem should go away. Furthermore, the OC (Roman) has a reputation for being able to scheme run games. Our rushing totals, at least, should go up.

[BarleyNY]

Incognito and Miller will change that. Plus an improved Kouandjio.

Hopeful on Miller and Incognito. I don't think Kouandjio is going to get any quicker though. My only hope is that he and Woods had trouble because they were always looking to help the wretched OGs last season and they'll be better because they don't have to worry about that constantly. I hope that was the problem.

[Peter]

FWIW, I think that Seantrel did pretty well in his rookie year all things considered. I think that he is going continue to improve with more experience, a real guard playing next to him, and especially with our new coaching staff.

 

Just my two cents.

[thewildrabbit]

bottom 5 for last years O-line is very fair.

 

so far, the only upgrade is richie, a guy who didn't play last year.

 

unless someone steps up or whaley makes another move, we will be lucky to crack the Top 20.

This is more accurate then most fans want, or care to believe.

 

Then judging by last years performance of #2 Cujo who couldn't even get on the field on one of the worst lines in the league, the performance of Richardson, Henderson one can't help but wonder if this years third round pick will be as equally bad.

 

Granted it does sometimes take players a year or two to acclimate themselves to the rigors of the NFL for the line. Its not for the faint of heart in any aspect, as you need the big nastys who are downright mean, and willing to go toe to toe for 60 min in the trenches. All the while knowing that unlike the skill players, and QB who fill the highlight reels. That their play will mostly go unnoticed except by their own players, QB, RB, and coaches.

 

 

Last year the Oakland Raiders fielded the very worst in the NFL defense in points allowed (32nd), and a near equally bad in yards allowed in (21st) they were (-15) in turnover differential which was worst in the league. 30th in the NFL in sacks. The Buffalo Bills went into Oakland in week 16 with a solid chance to secure a playoff berth for the first time in over a decade. Wanna know the stats that really stand out to me in that game?

 

Buffalo Bills 13 rushes for 13 yards. Fred Jackson 6 attempts for 10 yards. Spiller 4 attempts for -4 yards. How freaking pathetic can you get against one of the worst defenses in the league while vying for a playoff spot. This game made me sick watching it.

 

Yeah the schemes were bad, and the coaches were bad, but also the line players were bad. I've always been an advocate for better coaching, and hiring the very best coaches you can. But there comes a point that no coach can overcome bad talent.

 

Will the Bills field a decent O line in 2015 while trying to protect a statue, or a player with only 14 NFL games under his belt, maybe...or maybe not. I can't help but think this isn't the way I would want EJ to be developed, by being behind another maybe line. Not the way I wanted to see this team enter the 2015 season.

 

[Dragonborn10]

Hard to argue when two of the three positions were the worst in football. RT and LG were awful. RG and C were below average. LT was average.

This doesn't mean much since up to three positions will have new faces. No doubt the guard play will be better. RT should be an upgrade with Kouandjio or just a more experienced Henderson.

[eball]

For all the talk of not adding anyone but Incognito and a draft pick, there are other significant factors that will play into the Bills improving their OL performance this season:

 

-- Cordy Glenn. We have no idea what his ailment might have been, but arguably it contributed to his lackluster play last season. He returns this summer at (we believe) full strength.

 

-- New coaches. Kromer is a highly respected OL coach, and appears to be in lock-step with Roman. No more issues with too many cooks in the kitchen, as has been widely reported was the case under Marrone.

 

-- Year one to year two improvement. Kujo, Richardson, Henderson have a had a year of bad coaching, but also a year in an NFL weight program. It's very reasonable to expect an uptick in performance. Kujo in particular appears to have really dedicated himself this offseason.

 

-- Chris Williams returns. Now before you groan, the fact is this is another veteran player who at one time was considered a first round talent. There are no guarantees, but it's at least possible he provides legitimate depth or competes for a guard spot.

[Thurman#1]

 

This is why I love PFF: somehow the Bills' OL, which allowed 85 QB hits and gained 3.7 YPC, is somehow worse than the Colts' OL(which somehow didn't even rank in the bottom 5), which allowed 107 QB hits and gained 3.9 YPC.

 

Then you've got the Eagles, with 65 QB hits and 4.2 YPC, ranked (apparently) well ahead of Denver and their 42 QB hits with 4.0 YPC.

 

Now the kicker: figure out how Houston's OL, which is 0.3 YPC and 5 QB hits better than Buffalo, ranks 5th in the NFL, while Buffalo ranks 31st.

 

 

Doesn't seem confusing or contradictory to me. Different ways of calculating things will return somewhat different results.

 

And it really isn't PFF totalling this up, it's a guy on Reddit adding things together in a way that PFF might not endorse. The Reddit guy is adding the cumulative scores of each player (using at each position only the stats of whoever played the most time for the sake of the simplicity of his own calculations), rather than calculating how the line itself worked. So he'll come up with a score that gives 20% to each guy, whereas a line-as-a-group score might make a line with one guy who's killing everybody, a guy that the RB runs behind every time, look pretty good even if a guy on the other side is missing blocks consistently.

 

Plus total hits wouldn't be as good an indicator as total hits per play. Not to mention that some QB hits might be a result of bad QB play (QB runs into DL 6 seconds after snap) rather than bad line play. Or one line has fewer hits because of a very evasive QB or a Fitzy in a Gailey get-it-out-quick offense, while another has more hits with a Drew Bledsoe leadfoot-who-hangs-onto-the-ball type.

 

Actually, that's exactly what they do...they begin to tell the story.

 

I've said over and over on this board: stats don't tell the story; they tell a story.

 

I've never once said that the OL was good last year. I have said, on multiple occasions, that they get far more blame than they deserve.

 

It's far more common, IMO, for an offensive line to appear worse because of poor play by the QBs and RBs (and to a lesser extent, the WRs) than vice versa.

 

 

 

I can understand that opinion, but I disagree. It's all a working system. I'd argue it's about equal going both ways.

[thebandit27]

 

 

Doesn't seem confusing or contradictory to me. Different ways of calculating things will return somewhat different results.

 

And it really isn't PFF totalling this up, it's a guy on Reddit adding things together in a way that PFF might not endorse. The Reddit guy is adding the cumulative scores of each player (using at each position only the stats of whoever played the most time for the sake of the simplicity of his own calculations), rather than calculating how the line itself worked. So he'll come up with a score that gives 20% to each guy, whereas a line-as-a-group score might make a line with one guy who's killing everybody, a guy that the RB runs behind every time, look pretty good even if a guy on the other side is missing blocks consistently.

 

Plus total hits wouldn't be as good an indicator as total hits per play. Not to mention that some QB hits might be a result of bad QB play (QB runs into DL 6 seconds after snap) rather than bad line play. Or one line has fewer hits because of a very evasive QB or a Fitzy in a Gailey get-it-out-quick offense, while another has more hits with a Drew Bledsoe leadfoot-who-hangs-onto-the-ball type.

 

 

 

I can understand that opinion, but I disagree. It's all a working system. I'd argue it's about equal going both ways.

 

I know what you're saying re PFF...my point is that, many times, their grades to pass the sniff test.

 

I'm on record as saying that Buffalo's line wasn't very good last year; I just believe they got way too much criticism in place of the QBs/RBs/WRs.

 

As to skill position/OL responsibility, I understand that there will always be differing opinions there. The more I look at the game, the line between a well-blocked play and one that gets blown up is incredibly fine in most cases. I can't count on one hand the number of times per game (not just Bills' games) that the crease in the defensive front is there, but the play gets stuffed because either the RB misses it, the timing of the handoff is off, the RB started a half-yard too far back (or too far forward) in the backfield, etc.

 

I'm not saying that to diminish your point at all; just bringing my perspective to the table.