LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 I keep coming back to the fact that many teams do these things. Some interesting info here: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/11/dante-fowler-jaguars-tom-brady-deflategate-nfl-peter-king/5/ I'm beginning to think 4 max. To say many teams try to find an edge and skirt the rules a little I would agree, but taking the footballs before your suppose to and letting air out after the refs gauge them is totally different. Though I will say 4 games is probably about what Brady* will get.
MattM Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 You stated the the NFL gave the pats a break on Dennard because if they didn't, NE would have been "bereft" of DB's. It's not true. Again, the intent is the same. If you hand a bag of balls over to the refs that are at illegal playing PSI (because you made them that way) counting on the refs ineffeicient or lax inspection routine which will allow an illegal ball to get into your hands at gametime...the intent is the same. Brady's method was higher risk, but yielded more low pressure balls. At home anyway... Last time I checked teams play with at least two and quite often 3 or 4 CBs, so being down 2 (Browner and Dennard had he been sudpended) of your top 3 or 4 CBs for a quarter of the season would be a large impediment.
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) I keep coming back to the fact that many teams do these things. Some interesting info here: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/11/dante-fowler-jaguars-tom-brady-deflategate-nfl-peter-king/5/ I'm beginning to think 4 max. even more surprising than kings look at bradys stats coming out totally flat home vs road -- the patriots actually had the same, or more (sometimes a lot more) fumbles per game at home every season since 2006. it seems the road games is where they had the really impressive numbers. which is when they wouldnt be doing this, in theory. just poking through, they do run more plays per game at home, typically, but the gap doesnt appear to be wide enough to correct the anomaly. Edited May 11, 2015 by NoSaint
thebandit27 Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 Now Florio is just being an ass. Here is his last blurb... Anderson didn't lose them. He went to get them where they were and where they were supposed to be after doing other official duties and McNally had took them, which he had no authority to do. Anderson even started swearing, which apparently is not like him, and when told of McNally taking them, Anderson said, "He's not supposed to do that." Florio is pandering, and it's sad. Sometimes he comes off like a logical person, and then it almost seems like--just for fun--he does a total 180 so that he can be right either way. As soon as someone explains the following, I'll re-think my position: A guy that calls himself "The Deflator" takes footballs that he's not supposed to have, to a place they aren't supposed to go, where cameras cannot see him, for a long-enough period of time to tamper with each of them, and claims he did so because he had to use a bathroom stall/urinal that doesn't exist. Then, when tested at halftime, those same footballs show a drop in pressure from the mandated pre-game limits that exceeds the drop in pressure of the Colts' footballs by a statistically significant margin, regardless of which pressure readings are used. Next, we're privy to a series of messages from the team's ball handlers that very clearly show that they're acting upon instructions from the team's QB, who subsequently refused to provide correspondence relating to the investigation, despite being given the opportunity for he and his lawyers to pick through the correspondence on his phone before submitting. The above, when considered within the context of the entire series of events, makes it "more probable than not" that (a) they tampered with the ball, and (b) Brady knew about it. If we're treating this like law, then that's my closing argument. I welcome anyone that disagrees to make theirs.
nucci Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 Florio is pandering, and it's sad. Sometimes he comes off like a logical person, and then it almost seems like--just for fun--he does a total 180 so that he can be right either way. As soon as someone explains the following, I'll re-think my position: A guy that calls himself "The Deflator" takes footballs that he's not supposed to have, to a place they aren't supposed to go, where cameras cannot see him, for a long-enough period of time to tamper with each of them, and claims he did so because he had to use a bathroom stall/urinal that doesn't exist. Then, when tested at halftime, those same footballs show a drop in pressure from the mandated pre-game limits that exceeds the drop in pressure of the Colts' footballs by a statistically significant margin, regardless of which pressure readings are used. Next, we're privy to a series of messages from the team's ball handlers that very clearly show that they're acting upon instructions from the team's QB, who subsequently refused to provide correspondence relating to the investigation, despite being given the opportunity for he and his lawyers to pick through the correspondence on his phone before submitting. The above, when considered within the context of the entire series of events, makes it "more probable than not" that (a) they tampered with the ball, and (b) Brady knew about it. If we're treating this like law, then that's my closing argument. I welcome anyone that disagrees to make theirs.
PromoTheRobot Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 Thanks for posting that. I think we've hit consensus across he sports world (as much as ever) when this is in the Boston Globe! To be fair that writer is the Jerry Sullivan of the Globe, in that he is usually the insufferable douche. On the other hand, he's the only Boston writer who will not kowtow to the local teams whims.
Lurker Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 it seems the road games is where they had the really impressive numbers. which is when they wouldnt be doing this, in theory. Why wouldn't they be doing it on the road. In fact, I'd think there would be more incentive to do it as the away team, to help equalize the crowd advantage the home team gets. Since 2008, each team has limited control over their balls, regardless of whether they're home or away, right?
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 Why wouldn't they be doing it on the road. In fact, I'd think there would be more incentive to do it as the away team, to help equalize the crowd advantage the home team gets. Since 2008, each team has limited control over their balls, regardless of whether they're home or away, right? The self titled "deflater" is/was a part time employee who only worked home games, I believe.
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Why wouldn't they be doing it on the road. In fact, I'd think there would be more incentive to do it as the away team, to help equalize the crowd advantage the home team gets. Since 2008, each team has limited control over their balls, regardless of whether they're home or away, right? in these threads KtD was talking about the deflator not even traveling with the team the last few years, and peter king discussed in the link a few posts back that teams dont bring their own ball boys to the games on the road. the implication seems to be on the road they precondition their balls and then simply submit them, there would be not pats employee there to make the changes after inspection, while at home there would be. Edited May 11, 2015 by NoSaint
What a Tuel Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 The self titled "deflater" is/was a part time employee who only worked home games, I believe. I believe he was traveling with the team for a few years at some point. Then I guess they hired more full time people so he stopped going to away games. I can't remember if it is in the report, or an article I read.
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 I believe he was traveling with the team for a few years at some point. Then I guess they hired more full time people so he stopped going to away games. I can't remember if it is in the report, or an article I read. From the peter king link above: Since the NFL allowed all teams to condition footballs the way they wanted for use in both home and road games in 2006, the idea was that quarterbacks could play with footballs in the same shape for 16 weekends, not eight. (Previously, road quarterbacks played with footballs broken in in whatever way the home team wished.) But road teams do not bring their own ballboys to games. So, if a home-team ballboy was doctoring the footballs in any way before the game, thats not something that could happen on the road.
Lurker Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 The self titled "deflater" is/was a part time employee who only worked home games, I believe. More probably than not, there's a road game deflater--the guy Brady communicated with, who was a little more senior and likely to travel with the team...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 More probably than not, there's a road game deflater--the guy Brady communicated with, who was a little more senior and likely to travel with the team... I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I also don't see the proof.
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 More probably than not, there's a road game deflater--the guy Brady communicated with, who was a little more senior and likely to travel with the team... seems a large jump. why wouldnt you use the same guy at home instead of introducing more knuckleheads to the scheme? if an employee of the opposite team is with the balls, whens the senior guy making the changes on the road?
Go Kiko go Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Again, the intent is the same. If you hand a bag of balls over to the refs that are at illegal playing PSI (because you made them that way) counting on the refs ineffeicient or lax inspection routine which will allow an illegal ball to get into your hands at gametime...the intent is the same. Brady's method was higher risk, but yielded more low pressure balls. At home anyway... Intent doesn't matter if no rule violation occurred. If someone intends to break the law by speeding, and proceeds to drive no higher than the speed limit, it doesn't matter that they intended to break the law. They didn't. It doesn't appear that furnishing a ball to the referees that fails to meet the league's requirements constitutes a violation of the rules (the rules appear to contemplate a process by which each team furnishes balls to the referees, and the referees determine whether those balls are appropriate to be used for the game. The rules provide that "[t]he Referee shall be the sole judge as to whether all balls offered for play comply with [the] specifications", and given that the rules require that "[a] pump is to be furnished by the home club", the rules appear to contemplate that a team may furnish balls that fail to meet the league's specifications.). If furnishing a ball that does not meet the league's specifications does not violate the rules, what would Rodgers be punished for? Intending to break a rule that doesn't exist? Edited May 11, 2015 by Go Kiko go
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 Intent doesn't matter if no rule violation occurred. If someone intends to break the law by speeding, and proceeds to drive no higher than the speed limit, it doesn't matter that they intended to break the law. They didn't. For that analogy Rodgers and Brady are given cars with governors on the engine restricting them to 65 mph. Rodgers floors it to see if the governor works, Brady removes the governor altogether.
Taro T Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 You stated the the NFL gave the pats a break on Dennard because if they didn't, NE would have been "bereft" of DB's. It's not true. Again, the intent is the same. If you hand a bag of balls over to the refs that are at illegal playing PSI (because you made them that way) counting on the refs ineffeicient or lax inspection routine which will allow an illegal ball to get into your hands at gametime...the intent is the same. Brady's method was higher risk, but yielded more low pressure balls. At home anyway... Brady's method isn't just higher risk gamesmanship - it is flat out cheating. He's directing the ballboy to steal the balls from the refs and then alter them after they were inspected. And intent isn't at issue, it's action that's the issue. You can intend to have some of other peoples' money w/out "working." You can panhandle - annoying, but not cheating; or you can pick their pockets - annoying & cheating. While the latter method will likely yield more cash, it definitely is higher risk and entails more consequences. But the cheating isn't what will be his downfall; it'll be his obstruction of the investigation.
Lurker Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) seems a large jump. why wouldnt you use the same guy at home instead of introducing more knuckleheads to the scheme? if an employee of the opposite team is with the balls, whens the senior guy making the changes on the road? How hard is it to let air out of a ball...not like McNally went to MIT to learn how to do it. I have a hard time thinking that home games were the only time this happened. In any sport, success is a matter of consistency, repetition and confidence in your equipment. If Brady's balls were going up and down each week, depending on the venue, I can't see him being happy or confident in his equipment. BTW, each team supplies their own balls, even for road games. Ample opportunity for a Pats employee to monkey with them on the sideline during the game... http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/01/26/tom-brady-deflategate-peyton-manning-rule-change-nfl/22372835/ Edited May 11, 2015 by Lurker
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) How hard is it to let air out of a ball...not like McNally went to MIT to learn how to do it. I have a hard time thinking that home games were the only time this happened. In any sport, success is a matter of consistency, repetition and confidence in your equipment. If Brady's balls were going up and down each week, depending on the venue, I can't see him being happy or confident in his equipment. BTW, each team supplies their own balls, even for road games. Ample opportunity for a Pats employee to monkey with them on the sideline during the game... http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/01/26/tom-brady-deflategate-peyton-manning-rule-change-nfl/22372835/ my point with asking why have more people involved, isnt that its complicated to do but that its more people that can run their mouths. typically you keep the circle as tight as possible with stuff like this. and if they are letting air out on the sidelines, so be it. its possible. but youd think somewhere along the way someone would see it? its possible that its a road practice too, but if you are going to make the jump and casually declare it as fact - im going to push back a little with some obvious questions. and yea, even with this in place, i do believe the pressure would vary week to week. unless you think they had 100% success rate, its going to bounce around. if anything setting them to 12.5 and going with it would be the one way to make sure there was consistency, if thats the paramount quality (but even then, the refs can set them to whatever they want, and even the gauges dont seem to be consistent on top of that). Edited May 11, 2015 by NoSaint
Lurker Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 i do believe the pressure would vary week to week. unless you think they had 100% success rate, its going to bounce around. if anything setting them to 12.5 and going with it would be the one way to make sure there was consistency, if thats the paramount quality (but even then, the refs can set them to whatever they want, and even the gauges dont seem to be consistent on top of that). Jastremski was tasked with conditioning the game balls provided to the Patriots each season. I'm sure he's very aware of how Brady likes his balls to feel and probably could set them up by feel even if a gauge wasn't available. This quote in today's MMQB is pretty telling: “Imagine if Derek Jeter were handed a brand-new glove just before the start of every game,” says Brady. “Baseball players break in their gloves until they feel perfect to them. It’s ridiculous to [be forced to] play with new footballs. I can tell you there’ve been nights before road games when I have had trouble sleeping because I’m thinking about what kind of footballs I’ll be throwing the next day.”
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