Nihilist25 Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Yes, and Bill Polian was on Mike and Mike saying that "more probable than not" is standard phrasing that the NFL uses in these reports in order to say that that standard has been met. In other words, "more probable than not" is there way of saying "guilty" based on their standard. It is not "dubious" wording in the way that Brady's agent, among others, has tried to characterize it. Exactly. The standard used is explained in fn 1 on p. 1 of the report. The standard is common in civil litigation including employment law. You don't have to be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt as with a crime in civil litigation because the stakes are lower (i.e., you don't take the risk of going to jail in civil litigation) and because it allows for greater efficiency. Applying a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt in civil litigation would be ridiculously ornerous on any employer making it impossible to fire dirtbags. The folks who wrote the report are experienced attorneys and are accustomed to the preponderance of the evidence standard which is taught to all first year law students.
Nihilist25 Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Further, I find it kind of telling that Lee's first criticism is that the situation was a "sting operation" because the Patriots weren't notified of a complaint that they were deflating balls. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sm3i1u. It's like saying a drug dealer is innocent because the police didn't notify him that they had recieved a tip that he was selling.
Lurker Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 the Patriots weren't notified of a complaint that they were deflating balls. http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sm3i1u. It's like saying a drug dealer is innocent because the police didn't notify him that they had recieved a tip that he was selling. Low for me to be a devil's advocate...but if deflate-gate truely is all on Brady and neddledee and needledum, the Pats organization has been dealt a pretty severe blow by the actions of three employees. Now, I can enjoy that fact just fine, thank you. But it makes me think how I'd feel if three numbnuts at my company did something to tarnish the efforts and public perception of every other employee like this. I think that's why Kraft is so embarased and I can see their point just a little...
Captain Caveman Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Low for me to be a devil's advocate...but if deflate-gate truely is all on Brady and neddledee and needledum, the Pats organization has been dealt a pretty severe blow by the actions of three employees. Now, I can enjoy that fact just fine, thank you. But it makes me think how I'd feel if three numbnuts at my company did something to tarnish the efforts and public perception of every other employee like this. I think that's why Kraft is so embarased and I can see their point just a little... Except this company has a history of cheating and bending the rules to gain any competitive advantage, so you really can't be too surprised if employees pick up that mindset.
May Day 10 Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 To me it sounds like kraft and the patriots figured that goodell and the nfl were the kind of operation that would never expose dirt on itself. The kind of operation that hides a woman beating video. They called the nfls bluff and the nfl, very surprising to me got the dirt and made it public
K-9 Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 that can't be real Oh, but it is. Not that we should be surprised that their fan base is closing ranks and circling the wagons. But the idea that you'd be so outrages as to give up mountain dew and hot dogs is comedy gold, Jerry. http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/dear-robert-kraft.1119693/
DC Tom Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Oh, but it is. Not that we should be surprised that their fan base is closing ranks and circling the wagons. But the idea that you'd be so outrages as to give up mountain dew and hot dogs is comedy gold, Jerry. http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/dear-robert-kraft.1119693/ Not surprising, given Boston's long Irish heritage and support of the IRA, that they'd resort to this. Remember back in the 80's when Sinn Fein told the British "We'll continue to support Parliamant, but we refuse to eat during Maggie Thatcher's press conferences." The world's most half-assed hunger strike.
dulles Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Let's see, what are Brady's* grounds for appeal? (and yes, Brady* now gets the permanent asterisk on this board) -- no proof he was involved? Won't win there; it's a preponderance of the evidence standard and the circumstantial proof is overwhelming that he knew/directed what was going on. -- unfair punishment? Look at penalties handed out for Bountygate, where there was less circumstantial proof. -- no due process/opportunity to clear his name? Refused to cooperate beyond one interview, and made public statements completely contradictory to what other evidence shows. -- one of the most damning things for Brady* is the fact he specifically lobbied the NFL to change the rules regarding pressure of balls for road teams, but then, after this scandal broke, claimed to have no idea what the pressurization standard was. Brady* is screwed. eball - we are going to need to work out the proper grammar for Brady*. Wouldn't it be Brady*'s not Brady's* I don't want anything to separate Brady* from his misdeeds. Even a space between the y and * are unacceptable according to my thinking. This has to be the best off-season ever.
Nihilist25 Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Low for me to be a devil's advocate...but if deflate-gate truely is all on Brady and neddledee and needledum, the Pats organization has been dealt a pretty severe blow by the actions of three employees. Now, I can enjoy that fact just fine, thank you. But it makes me think how I'd feel if three numbnuts at my company did something to tarnish the efforts and public perception of every other employee like this. I think that's why Kraft is so embarased and I can see their point just a little... Isn't Kraft still holding onto the theory the atmosphere caused deflation? Faced with investigation findings, even Biscotti accepted responsibility and embarrassment. Also, even though the report found no knowledge on the part of Kraft and Billichick, aren't they responsible for everything their organization does, especially when it's game related, regardless of their knowledge? If they're responsible, shouldn't they be embarrassed? How is a Brady suspension unfair to the Patriots in this situation? Also, if Brady was just a numbnut who tarnished the Patriots' reputation, shouldn't Kraft want to make an example of him? If anything, a Brady suspension is light on a team whose members have been caught cheating before. Edited May 9, 2015 by Nihilist25
Lurker Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) How is a Brady suspension unfair to the Patriots in this situation? Also, if Brady was just a numbnut who tarnished the Patriots reputation, shouldn't Kraft want to make an example of him? Didn't say it was unfair. Just that the players and employees who didn't have anything to do with Tommy's balls are going to be penalized and always branded as cheaters. Most fans here would say good, they're Cheatriots. But that's a lot of tar to spread on some who had no involvement. As to Kraft making an example of Brady, it would be nice to see ("Hey, Tom, how about turning over that phone, even though you said no the first time") but he's never going to do it, with the whole circle-the-wagons vibe going on in Boston right now... Edited May 9, 2015 by Lurker
Nihilist25 Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Didn't say it was unfair. Just that the players and employees who didn't have anything to do with Tommy's balls are going to be penalized and always branded as cheaters. Most fans here would say good, they're Cheatriots. But that's a lot of tar to spread on some who had no involvement. As to Kraft making an example of Brady, it would be nice to see ("Hey, Tom, how about turning over that phone, even though you said no the first time") but he's never going to do it, with the whole circle-the-wagons vibe going on in Boston right now... Yeah, the innocent players and employees should blame Tom and his crew and/or chalk it up to the risk they take when playing/working for a team like the Patriots. As for Kraft, he won't fire Brady although he could. Edited May 9, 2015 by Nihilist25
Big Turk Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Don Shula taking another dig at Pats, saying they never deflated any balls when they went undefeated and they always did things the right way and could be held up as an example when teams were looking for one, and that he was very proud of that fact... He didn't call him Belicheat again tho, lol
MattM Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 Don Shula taking another dig at Pats, saying they never deflated any balls when they went undefeated and they always did things the right way and could be held up as an example when teams were looking for one, and that he was very proud of that fact... He didn't call him Belicheat again tho, lol I recently read a story where Larry Csonka found a copy of the Raiders game plan in the Fins locker room before a game and gave it to an assistant coach. Miami went on to lose that game and Csonka later went to Shula and said "How could we lose--we had their game plan?" and Shula said "I threw it out. We don't win that way here." Contrast that to Belicheat and stories of his espionage and you may be able to understand why he holds Belicheat in such low regard.
DC Tom Posted May 9, 2015 Posted May 9, 2015 eball - we are going to need to work out the proper grammar for Brady*. Wouldn't it be Brady*'s not Brady's* I don't want anything to separate Brady* from his misdeeds. Even a space between the y and * are unacceptable according to my thinking. This has to be the best off-season ever. Then write *Brady. Personally, I think the whole thing is silly. "Brady" doesn't need an asterisk. "Brady" is synonymous with "cheating." You don't put an asterisk on synonyms.
Beef Jerky Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 If he is suspended for week two... The Bills NEED to win... Not "its only week two" they need to win that game.
What a Tuel Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Oh, but it is. Not that we should be surprised that their fan base is closing ranks and circling the wagons. But the idea that you'd be so outrages as to give up mountain dew and hot dogs is comedy gold, Jerry. http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/threads/dear-robert-kraft.1119693/ Man, they are sold hook line and sinker that Brady has done nothing wrong, and that science proves it.
What a Tuel Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 No problem, this wasn't necessarily directed just at you. There has been a lot of that sentiment on here. The point being I'd rather win with a whole lot of "ifs" and "buts" than not win at all. If someone wants to question the validity of the Bills playoff berth and the Bills are in the playoffs, I am all for it. Ah, I saw a whole lot of "defeatist attitude" being talked about it, and just wanted to be clear that I don't believe any of that bologney. Just that it will happen, and it will annoy us. I am beyond ready for us to get into the playoffs! We are rising to fight again!
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted May 10, 2015 Posted May 10, 2015 Man, they are sold hook line and sinker that Brady has done nothing wrong, and that science proves it. One if the funnier posts on page one included this tasty gem: "We want to see this fought tooth and nail and we do not care what it costs us.". I understand the passion for the game but sometimes these guys have to get out of their grandma's basement and get some sun on their face.
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